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  1. #40
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    The context of this thread is that a man who drew some cartoons is in fear for his life and was nearly killed.

    In this context, the question of protected free speech in free societies becomes starkly personal and binary, the moral question becomes an existential one:

    1.) Either this man is hunted and hounded by people who want him dead until he is dead from natural causes, or stress-induced causes, or is actually murdered by his assailants.

    Or

    2.) He is left alone on the grounds that he should be able to criticize religion in the ordinary course of the free exercise of his human right to speak his mind.

    The test is this: Even if you are enraged by his cartoons, will you still stand up for his right to life and liberty? Or... the only other option that I can see is that you believe matters should "take their own course", up to, and including, the possibility of his murder.

    I don't see how one can equivocate here. Either the man lives free or is hunted until he is killed or dies.

    (I suppose a third option might be to lock him up or deport him, both of which criminalize criticism of religion. Which, to my mind, is fascism.)

    ------
    Some quick notes on other arguments:

    The point about Christians and "pooping on the pope" is a different example as it is a direct physical attack on a revered figure. More exact comparisons to the Danish Cartoons incident are the following well-known cases involving performance or art:

    Sinead O'Connor (ripped up a picture of the pope on tv): No attempts on her life due to that incident that I can find. Much hand-wringing.
    Andres Serrano (Piss Christ photo): No attempts on his life. Outcry that public funds were used. Picture was physically attacked.
    Renee Cox (Yo Mama's Last Supper - photos): No attempts on her life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.
    Chris Ofili (Holy Virgin Mary with porn and dung): No attempts on his life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.

    Given the subdued reaction to these high-profile, comparable, and recent examples of anti-christian expression, I think the comparison made by Jovian M fails.
    --------
    Randis, can you give me an example of speech critical of a religion, that will not be considered hate speech by fundamentalist members of that religion? Please use radical Islam as your example.
    --------------------------

    Anyway, I'm glad to see that this discussion is an actual discussion. Let's all try to keep it that way if we can.

    kev

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  4. #41
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    EDIT - deleted: Nah, I got rid of this too. It's one of those days where I can't seem to say what I want so it's best not to post at all

    Last edited by Baron Impossible; January 2nd, 2010 at 12:08 PM.
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  6. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The context of this thread is that a man who drew some cartoons is in fear for his life and was nearly killed.

    In this context, the question of protected free speech in free societies becomes starkly personal and binary, the moral question becomes an existential one:

    1.) Either this man is hunted and hounded by people who want him dead until he is dead from natural causes, or stress-induced causes, or is actually murdered by his assailants.

    Or

    2.) He is left alone on the grounds that he should be able to criticize religion in the ordinary course of the free exercise of his human right to speak his mind.

    The test is this: Even if you are enraged by his cartoons, will you still stand up for his right to life and liberty? Or... the only other option that I can see is that you believe matters should "take their own course", up to, and including, the possibility of his murder.

    I don't see how one can equivocate here. Either the man lives free or is hunted until he is killed or dies.

    (I suppose a third option might be to lock him up or deport him, both of which criminalize criticism of religion. Which, to my mind, is fascism.)

    ------
    Some quick notes on other arguments:

    The point about Christians and "pooping on the pope" is a different example as it is a direct physical attack on a revered figure. More exact comparisons to the Danish Cartoons incident are the following well-known cases involving performance or art:

    Sinead O'Connor (ripped up a picture of the pope on tv): No attempts on her life due to that incident that I can find. Much hand-wringing.
    Andres Serrano (Piss Christ photo): No attempts on his life. Outcry that public funds were used. Picture was physically attacked.
    Renee Cox (Yo Mama's Last Supper - photos): No attempts on her life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.
    Chris Ofili (Holy Virgin Mary with porn and dung): No attempts on his life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.

    Given the subdued reaction to these high-profile, comparable, and recent examples of anti-christian expression, I think the comparison made by Jovian M fails.
    --------
    Randis, can you give me an example of speech critical of a religion, that will not be considered hate speech by fundamentalist members of that religion? Please use radical Islam as your example.
    --------------------------

    Anyway, I'm glad to see that this discussion is an actual discussion. Let's all try to keep it that way if we can.

    kev
    In this single case, the answer's pretty clear yeah. The cartoonist didn't do anything wrong, and the cartoons themselves weren't even that bad. They were actually rather tame, so where the whole outrage came from is beyond me.
    As for my previous reply, I was talking about free speech in general. (In which case I'm siding with Randis, no hatespeech). There are more options to pick than just the two extremes on the spectrum, where it's either everything or nothing.

    And really, this subject encompasses so much more than Danish cartoons or the Islam.

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  7. #43
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    The people who are trying to kill this guy don't believe in the kind of selfish individualism that freedom speech is seen as a symptom of. It's all very well saying educate them and give them personal freedom, democracy and a place in society, but only takes a handful of influential nutters to fuck it up for everyone - the 'solutions' to the problem are what they're fighting against.

    Of course moderate westernised christians don't have the same attitudes, although if you keep poking them in the bum, who knows what'll happen.

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  8. #44
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    Kev, I do not have examples. I am not a big follower of religious news and scandals.
    All I say is that the Medias let slide jokes like this about Islam while they would never
    print equally offensive material about Christian religion.

    Ripping apart some picture of the Pope? Ok… That is not very controversial IMO.
    Let’s say: some dark forest redneck family who happened to be fanatic Christians
    butcher 12 kids in the name of god and make it on the big news. No newspaper will
    print a cartoon of Jesus with bloody butcher knives. They would get a couple calls
    from pissed Christian families and do a call back.
    There are also some anti-Semitic Christian movements… can you imagine the
    newspapers printing Jesus or any other Christian prophet holding up a swastika
    symbol? I don’t think so!

    On the other hand, showing a Islamic prophet with a bomb, linking the religion as
    the root of all recent terrorist attacks will naturally piss off a really wide audience.
    The cartoonist was attacked because some extremists placed a head bounty
    of 1 Million $.
    That is the reason for his fear and not because every random Muslim would kill
    him for disrespecting his religion.
    If any other fanatic organization or terrorist cell would hand out 1m bounties
    people would kill regardless of the original reason.

    There have been many violent protests with casualties regarding this matter
    and this alone is the reason why the Medias kept reprinting the cartoons,
    lighting the fire. If 60% of asked cartoonists turn down the job, it would give every
    normal human to think if that is the right way to adress the problem. There vast
    majority of Muslims in various countries all over the world have nothing to do with
    the acts of terrorism or other horrible news you see on the news.

    There is a difference between free opinion, provocation, propaganda and hate speech.
    If the medias keep putting oil in the fire for 2 years, despite massive protests
    (massive protests usually imply hate speech...because people feel massively offended)
    then there will be blood regardless of the topic. It could be about religion, it could be
    about beer, you name it.
    All it takes is pissing off a group of people long enough and someone will eventually
    beat you to a pulp. It is like running into the wrong corner of a soccer stadium and calling
    some drunk fans looser after a bad match. You know it is legal and still they will break your legs.

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
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  10. #45
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    They should start a Muhhamed of the week activity on ca.

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  12. #46
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    Randis, nobody said the cartoonist was being stalked by any Muslim, as Muslims in general, by my estimation, are peacable people.

    Radical fundamentalist Islamists, however, will act to win the bounty prize, even knowing full well they can be killed or jailed in the process. Only a believer in the mission, therefore, would make such an attempt. If it was just about the money, you would see many types of bounty hunters taking shots at the cartoonist. But you don't, so your point doesn't hold. The facts don't lie... This act was about religion, not money.

    Next: Since there aren't any bounties to use as an example from Christianity or Judaism against anti-christian or anti-jewish art or performance, your counter example is a straw man... simply not relevant.

    Another straw man, your hypothetical example of the family in the woods... There is no significant movement within Christianity akin to radical Islam in size or ferocity. If there were, there should be a picture of Jesus with a bomb in his hair or robes or wherever. But there isn't, so there isn't.

    Furthermore, your refusal to acknowledge the accuracy of my examples of similar outrages not garnering similar responses was disconcerting. Let's put it very simply, just substitute out the Christian diety for the Muslim diety in Piss (P*) Christ and see if you find it offensive...

    P* Christ = P* Mohammed

    (Because sometimes this site is subject to islamist cyber attacks, I have deliberately pulled the punch on the above formulation. You can figure it out for yourself.)

    Anyhow, I think the above fictional formulation makes the point quite clearly. Had the second one been created, there would have been a fatwa. The first one WAS created, and there was no christian equivalent to a fatwa. It seems a simple, undeniable point.

    Not incidentally, the anti-christian works I named above were viewed by me through various national media sources, with the same degree of availability as the Danish cartoons were, in my estimation.

    And of course, now, you can view any of the anti-christian works mentioned previously all over the net, all over the world... Piss Christ, Yo Mama's Last Supper, The Virgin Mary with dung and porn, and other such works... and yet there is no bounty out there to kill any of the artists involved. So again, your point doesn't hold in that regard.

    Lastly, your final paragraphs remind me of the old "she wore sexy clothing, so she deserved to be raped" defense. Reading it was sickening. People lives are more important than the words they speak. People who kill others over words and symbols are INSANE. Part of the role of government is to protect their citizens from violence and insanity.

    Imagine if I were a Radical Feminist. I might think that your artwork, which has lots of nude women in it, is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. Given your previous statements, I'll assume that you think it is okay that I slit your throat based on my perception of your artwork. Because, after all, your work is provocative for no other reason than you like nude women in subservient poses. Women in subservient poses, to a radical feminist, is demeaning hate speech. Ergo, you deserve what you get. Would you agree?

    I hope you appreciate the situation a bit better now.

    Baron Impossible... you took the last train out of Dodge. Smart fellah.

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  14. #47
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    I think this is well beyond a free speech issue, if it ever was one to begin with. Most often i see no efforts to separate millions of peaceful muslims from a handful of extremists - by either side of the debate.

    (this applies to media and politicians who push this case, not necessarily individuals in discussions i've had.)

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  16. #48
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    You are missing the poin Kev, like totally.

    Do you know that in Thailand alone there are large Islamic extremist groups killing innocent people, children and so on… Soldiers have to give teachers escort, because they get killed sometimes…
    Right now, as we speak, someone is killed somewhere.
    Do they show it on the news? No, they show some freaking cartoon and argue while hiding behind the right of free speech.

    In some Islamic countries it is illegal to import or posses the bible.
    Christians are killed, Buddhist temples are burned down.
    Small Children of Christian families were raped because the parents refused to convert to islam.
    Do they show it on the news? No, they show some freaking cartoon and argue while hiding behind the right of free speech.
    There is so much horror going on and some ‘almost’ assassinated cartoonist in Denmark is getting the big news while no one dares to point the finger at the real problems.
    It’s a double standard. Convenient news are convenient.
    While we are discussing cartoons this things happened and no one seems to give a shit:

    2010.01.01 (Shah Hason Khel, Pakistan) - Children are amply represented among over one hundred spectators massacred at a volleyball tournament by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.

    2009.12.31 (Yala, Thailand) - Two civilians riding a motorbike are shot to death by Islamic militants.

    2009.12.31 (Kalat, Pakistan) - Two oil truck drivers are shot to death by Muslim radicals.

    2009.12.31 (Uruzgan, Afghanistan) - Six civilians are beheaded by Islamic hardliners.

    2009.12.30 (Bajaur, Pakistan) - A tribal elder is brutally murdered by the Taliban and dropped by the roadside.

    2009.12.30 (Baramulla, India) - Hizb-ul-Mujahideen gunmen open up on four Indian cops at point-blank range, leaving all four dead.

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 04:20 PM.
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  18. #49
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    I don't care how offensive this guy's cartoon was, putting a price on his head and calling for his murder over it is fucking absurd.

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    So what you're trying to say Randis is that Islam is bad and we need to get rid of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    So what you're trying to say Randis is that Islam is bad and we need to get rid of it?
    I vote getting rid of all religions and cults.

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  21. #52
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    of course not, you can not solve murder with more murder right?
    What would be the best solution?
    Any idea? Any better idea than all the other ideas that has been tried or suggested over the years by countless individuals, governments and organizations?
    of course not, you cannot solve murder with more murder right?
    What would be the best solution?
    Any idea? Any better idea than all the other ideas that has been tried or suggested over the years by countless individuals, governments and organizations?
    I am sure that the one or another has some ideas but then again they can be spoken out loud without
    Sounding politically incorrect or without offending some minorities, human rights and so on…
    Sometimes it seems tough addressing issues by name.
    Maybe a more fitting cartoon would be a muzzled westerner turning his back on the roots of the problem while pointing at the leafs?

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 05:04 PM.
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