Danish Cartoonist nearly assassinated by Islamist - Page 3
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Thread: Danish Cartoonist nearly assassinated by Islamist

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    I can't really believe that, that's the response.

    That you need examples and then that the example provided and the multitude available don't meet some arbitrary undisclosed standard?

    Then the inclusion of random number (that cannot possibly be measured with any accuracy) which seems a misrepresentation of surveys conducted in 2008 and 09 and use it to calculate "potential radicals" and then compare it with an assumption based off one example and limit the scope to a single country? Strangely enough, the world is larger than that, but since Wiki seems sufficient for you, so:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism (which is not an exhaustive list, which is why Google is wise)

    And then you utterly ignore, multiple times, that in the definition of the free western world and by John Stewart Mill, this cartoon would -not- be protected by the right of free speech. There is a vast difference between valid rational criticism on a topic, and using misrepresented bigotry to make broad inciting statements.

    To be blunt, you're simply using the pretense of a debate regarding free speech to push forward your own agenda and ignore any opposing view... which is exactly the thought process involved in creating situations as they exist in the world currently. Replacing one kind of blinded thought process for another... just means history is repeated. If there's any hope for progress, it has to be on all fronts, it has to be addressed regardless of if it's the current media darling or not. Radicals, create more radicals, extremes create the opposite extremes.

    *shrugs* I'm out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krato View Post
    I think its more likely that our own governments will take our freedoms away then these religious zealots.

    That being said..

    The cure to this issue is not bombs or bullets but education. I recently saw a video on HBO where they interviewed the sole surviving terrorist from the Mumbai attack. He was an uneducated man and his accomplices also were uneducated, they were manipulated by some religious fanatics and trained to kill in the name of god. That same situation is echoed throughout the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. The only weapon the west has that can stop this madness is not bombs from a plane or bullets from a gun, but knowledge and information given to the masses.
    The scary part is the grunts sent in maybe uneducated but the people orchestrating the attacks aren't. The religious fanatics will just get someone else to do the dirty work, and train them to kill in the name of god. Fear and hate is a powerful motivator and it will override most forms of education or foreign logic. They aren't doing the attacks because they think it's logical, they are doing it because they believe it's what their god wants.

    Your words are noble though. Just my two cents.

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    Where was the educated and logical reasoning behind drawing Mohamed with a bomb in his turban?......

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    Brashen: I think that's a good point. It wouldn't surprise me if both sides condemned each other with labels. You look at history and you easily replace the word “uneducated” with “less civilize/barbarism” and the bantering is just about the same.

    Though I would rather have that Islamist person talk it over than try to assassinate the cartoonist.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Brashen.... Are you saying these cartoonists were not educated, nor logical?? How DARE you say that about cartoonists! You better keep a look out tonight because the Cartoonists Collective™ is coming for your scalp! BE WARNED!!!

    Echoinside... you win the drama trophy. Congrats. Also the ad hominem medal, and the "stomp out of the room in a huff" award.

    Your contention that a cartoon causes harm is absurd, which is why I didn't respond to it. Its a cartoon. Sometimes cartoons offend. You called me a bigot. That offends me.

    In fact, you've tarnished my character and brought dishonor on me in this community, and thus have done harm to me. Guess I can send the Cartoonists Collective™ around to collect your scalp too. Don't forget to build a panic room in your house, a place where you can lock yourself in until the authorities arrive. But even if you survive once, don't worry, we'll be back. Again and again and again until, at last, we have your bloody scalp. You Cartoonist-Hater!

    The toons were published in a small paper in a small country and blown all out of proportion by some Islamist politicians... further and further until these toons seemed to be just as offensive a thing as is required in order for radicals to want to MURDER the cartoonist. That'll put a bit of a chill on dissent won't it?

    Let's just be brutally honest about the harm principle, shall we? No cartoon in the world can cause more harm (In the sense Mill means it) to Islam than the behavior of the Radical Islamists. The cartoons wouldn't exist unless the radical islamists were bringing shame upon Islam. So if the radicals are going to kill anybody on the basis of the harm principle, it should be themselves. And that would be just fine by me, and fine by a lot of highly educated and liberal Muslims as well, who have to live under the thumb of some of these thugs in misery, poverty, and fear.

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    IIRC, the same newspaper that published the Muhammed cartoons earlier refused to publish cartoons mocking Christianity. Apparently criticizing religion is OK with the Danes as long as it's not their own.

    I don't like any religion, but I honestly think that some Europeans have the same xenophobic, bigoted attitudes towards Southwest Asians that some people here have towards Mexicans. I'm all for freedom of speech, but I wonder if these cartoons were part of a general European trend to attack the culture of non-European immigrants.

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    This is a very unusual topic. Unless I'm completely missing the point, the cartoonist was indeed within his rights to submit the work for publication. The unfortunate repercussions were perhaps not unforeseeable, but working under the assumption that people can control their own will, the cartoonist could hardly be held responsible. I wouldn't call it a right to invade someone's home and threaten them with visible means to do harm. Whether it's been done before, whether other religions (or non-religious sects) have done it before, that isn't the issue.

    I agree with Kev when he says a cartoon is not harmful.
    There are laws to deal with libel, harassment/stalking, murder, rape, kidnapping, theft, and other violations of the personal rights of others. If there was/is any case to be made against this cartoonist's right to display his cartoon, then it should have been taken up in the proper courts. To outlaw the expression itself as 'hate speech' is to simply invent a new law because the people you disagree with aren't breaking any of the others ones.

    Speaking as a Christian, anyone they want can speak as much 'hate' as they want about my beliefs, about me, and about my family. They have a right to speak their mind, so long as they don't actually hurt anyone or deprive them of their property or other rights. The minute that happens, they have crossed the line of speech and moved into unlawful actions.

    So far as I know, the cartoonist had not done any of those things.

    Edit: Although I might put forth, in response to Trexmaster's post, if the majority religion in Denmark is Christianity, and if that is the major demographic of the paper in question, they would hardly want to alienate that group.

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    kev:

    I'm guessing it's a bad idea to respond to such a childish response, especially one that managed to so misread my post and others, but it seems I can't help myself.

    If you consider pointing out the inaccuracies in your argument, the lack of logic, that data is ignored or fabricated and the hypocrisy of actions and words, when demands are made of others, then yes, I happily accept the drama trophy.

    If you mean attributing that you have responsibility for all of that, and that I believe, based on your responses, that it shares similarities in perspective to what you claim is such a threat, then I'll take the medal as well. Though I find it ironic, considering the subject, that your reaction to my free speech and criticism of your actions, with supporting examples, is taken as a personal attack against you as a whole/individual.

    As for the award, I'd like the title changed to "wander out of the room in shocked amazement" if you don't mind, or maybe something about "realizing the futility" would work as well.

    As for calling you a bigot, I'm afraid you misread, I pointed out multiple times and again with that sentence that the cartoon was so. It fits the definitions for what's required very well. If you don't believe it, that's your concern, but to anyone with experience in these matters, or perhaps a cursory glance of material related to it, it's rather clear. Randis provided it pretty clearly back in page one actually.

    If you continue to believe that I have harmed you, you won't need the collective... luckily enough there are laws for that too, namely libel. This again, being a balance within free speech that forces a certain standard of conduct, only on a personal level, rather than the larger scope level of hate speech.

    Oh and one more correction to the events, before I "walk out of the room in disappointed disdain". According to what I read the larger scale reaction was actually caused by media outlets, who when the comics were initially quietly removed after a single complaint, decided to republish them on a much wider scale... which then caused the subsequent response. It's that harm principle thing again, in action.

    But anyway, have fun with your escalation! Toodles.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    echo, I think I've answered your questions and rebutted your legitimate points as sufficiently as I can. I was joking on some of the other points, obviously, in order to make a point. Anyway...

    I think our basic disagreements are these: You think cartoons matter. I don't. I think death threats and violence matters.

    You think the cartoons are harmful to Islam's reputation. I think Radical Islam is the source of Islam's reputation problems and Radical Islam is the cause of the cartoons.

    I have infinite patience for cartoons. I have no patience for death threats and violence.

    And there we leave it.

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    The guy looks like a douche anyway...wouldn't put it past him to do something so stupid and insensitive...probably was high off his ass when he drew it anyway....and have you guys seen the picture.....the guy couldn't draw shit if he had some in his hand and was spreading it over a piece of paper......hey I'm just saying.... you know free speech..

    Kev, love you dude but I got the Concept and Fine Artists Brotherhood watching my back....and scalp!!

    In conclusion Free speech is retarded when none of us know what it means.....Be sensitive to your fellow man and live long and prosper...

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    *bangs head into wall*

    I don't know how you can believe that, but no matter.

    To try and clarify/simplify my viewpoint:

    Violence in such situations cannot be justified, that's simply inherent. However, cause and affect or how events and actions are linked, I also believe are inherent. That short sighted views simply cause escalation.

    I believe that Free Speech should exist within the limitations put forward by international agreement, by a great number of countries, as described within the human rights charter of the UN. Specifically with regards to protection under it from bigotry, hate speech and incitement to hatred. Which is in line with the harm principle discussed by the often cited figure of John Stewart Mill in that discussion.

    I believe that media, does in fact, have an influence on the perception of a group of people and affect the actions taken or beliefs held by others, even if it is in fact only a cartoon. Having grown up in South Africa during apartheid, I have seen firsthand how derogatory and untrue cartoons (among other things) are used as a means of population/culture control, as well as a means to incite hatred against both race and religion. As well as how a stereotype based on a very small portion of a group, can become prevalent to the point where all of that group, regardless of innocence are treated and judged based upon it.

    To try and put it even more simply (because I fail at brevity), I prefer it when people are treated equally and fairly and I don't see how free speech should include the right to lie, directly or through omission. And that's what those limitations prevent. The vast majority of those 1.5 -billion- people who are innocent, why do they deserve to be lumped in with crazies and why should a rational society allow it? Every western country has laws and rights exactly to prevent such abuses.

    And now... I'm going to see if there's a way to restrict myself from the lounge =P Be well all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    Randis, you basically said that the cartoonist was inviting violence by provoking people, and that the cartoons/media coverage were trivialising murders that actually happen... but you already made a joke in this thread involving muhammed and jesus. It was funny, and it wasn't as bad as the bomb in the turban, but some "radical islamist" could easily take offense to what you said. If they replied with threats of violence, would you be to blame for a violent reaction? If people drew attention to the threats, would that be trivializing successful acts of violence in other places?
    No, absolutely not. The cartoonist did no crime of any sort and I also would not blame him for any of the events. Killing a person just for his opinion, regardless of the opinion is plain wrong and needless to analyze.
    But I do blame the action of the media. While there are real problems happening every day, speak real people DIE for ridiculous reason. The Media has created a new calculated conflict with these cartoons to have something to pick on. Before those things went into print, it was obvious that it would create a conflict and creating more conflicts at this point s not wise.
    Look at it from this side: The newspaper hired a couple of artists and gave them a job to draw certain images, more than half of the cartoonists refused the job and now one almost got killed.
    The poor guy has to watch his back now probably for the rest of his life. If he would have died, it would not have helped anyone and would not have changed anything.

    I live in a country where people get killed by some extremists almost on daily basis, often in a very brutal way; we hear it on the news and it is shocking, every time. When I ask friends in other countries, most did never hear of those events, obviously such headlines do not sell the newspaper well enough.
    Over the years you very often see people discuss problems in public, using words like human rights, education, freedom of speech but as soon as the discussions go private you get to hear things like: burn it down, built a Mac Donald’s there. It is easy to discuss problems when you sit on a soft couch with a beer in a hand, far away from the problems.
    Unless you do some research on the internet and read smaller local medias from other countries you don’t even get to hear a what is really happening out there.
    Some of the crimes are so brutal and ridiculous that it is beyond reason and understanding.
    Public executions of woman and children, Killings in the name of honor, rape and so on and so on…
    Picking the lesser evil just because it is easier to address without sounding politically incorrect or simple helpless because no one seem to have a solution will hardly help anyone.
    Want to discuss some problems, here:


    Two-year-old raped and left to die because her father refused to convert to Islam
    Over at Weasel Zippers Momma asks: "When will our President stand up for the rights of Christians all around the world?" Good question. I wonder if he will be able to stop praising Islam long enough even to consider doing such a thing. "Family flees 'horrific' abuse: Given asylum in Canada after couple's daughter was raped as toddler in Pakistan," by Tom Godfrey for the Toronto Sun, December 29 (thanks to Weasel Zippers):
    A seven-year-old Pakistani girl and her family have been given asylum in Canada after reports the child was raped and left to die when her Christian father refused to convert to Islam.
    The identities of Baby Neeha and her family are being protected by immigration officials, said human rights lawyer Chantal Desloges and One Free World International, a church that was instrumental in getting the family here.
    The family arrived in Canada on Dec. 12 after a three-year battle by organizers to spirit them out of danger in Pakistan....
    Church founder Rev. Majed El Shafie said the family of seven have been hiding from extremists in Pakistan for about three years.
    Baby Neeha, at the age of 21/2, was raped by the son of her father's employer and left to die by the roadside, he said. No one was arrested for the crime.
    "These horrific events took place because her father, who was Christian, refused to give in to pressure from his Muslim employer to convert to Islam," El Shafie said.
    The family went underground in Pakistan to hide from Muslim extremists who were seeking revenge for their non-conversion, he said.
    "The family has lived for years in hiding and in constant fear of being discovered by the employer's family or Islamic extremists," El Shafie said. "We are thrilled that she's finally in Canada."...


    Want to discuss freedom of information and speech? Human rights?
    Check out all the News reporter killings over the years.
    Check out how some governments censor the Medias to keep the population in the dark and to keep people from spreading news. See how some places do not offer the freedom of religion.
    Check out the female rights and integration. See how There are countless topics!


    I am outa here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brashen View Post
    In conclusion Free speech is retarded when none of us know what it means.....Be sensitive to your fellow man and live long and prosper...
    I agree, the sensitivities of murdering extremists must always be considered, those poor misunderstood psychos. Personally, I'm offended by jokes about men leaving the toilet seat up. If you guys wanna test my sensitivitites, I'll call it a hate crime and push for violent retribution. Do not test my people.

    Free speech is retarded when it's semi-free, what's the point in drawing Thor giving Jesus the reach around, if you can't have Muhammad in the background counting pennies? FREE speech means that the ideas do the fighting, without politicians and terrorists butting in.

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    Man Made God......lol what....yes because every Muslim is an extremist right??

    These are exactly the ways Nazis used there newspapers to hate on Jews is it not? Drawing them rat like and with huge crooked noses with claws instead......

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    What? No, my point was that we all get pissed off at some things we see around us, but most of us don't try to kill people or limit free speech, including the majority of muslims/christians/whatever... you shouldn't bow to violence and cater to extremists.

    You're right though, when someone makes a cartoon making fun of religious extremists, they must be genocidal racists. How could I not see the hand of zombie Hitler behind all of this, it all makes perfect sense now!

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    This is really two topics. There's the specific event of this one cartoonist, who I think we can all feel some sympathy for. If you just want to look at this as an isolated event, then there's no doubt who's at fault. People shouldn't kill others for their opinions.

    Breshen mentions a good point about antisemite cartoons. It really depends on who's doing it and for what purpose. I think we can all agree the KKK and its activities should be illegal. It's right to free speech and organize infringes on the rights of blacks, other minorities, gays, etc. If the KKK had its way, we'd all have a ton of our natural rights infringed - like who we can marry, associate with, etc.

    So, did this cartoon constitute hate speech? I'd say no. I think it's a smart critique against extremism. You wouldn't imagine Muhammed as a suicide bomber, just like (as the Onion points out) you wouldn't imagine Christ killing an abortion doctor. So why do any of this in their name? I don't get offended over either instance, and I don't see it as stereotyping anyone.

    Now, if this became more of a movement, where muslims really were depicted as rats or such on a regular basis, and there was nothing intelligent about it, but just malicious, then I'd start to worry - like when the Economist had an article worrying about the spread of Islam, as if the religion itself is a threat. I've met enough muslims to know this isn't the case. The ones I met would probably see the point in the Mohammed caricature, and agree.

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    I really think a lot of us need to deal with the Muslims as a community and the muslim terrorism before we form our judgements based on Wikipedia and such.

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    Just to make sure everyone knows what the words mean and what the numbers look like.

    Islam ( الإسلام‎ ) is the religion articulated by the Qur’an, a book considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of the single incomparable God (Allāh), and by the Islamic prophet Muhammad's demonstrations and real-life examples (called the Sunnah, collected through narration of his companions in collections of Hadith).

    Muslim (مسلم‎) is an adherent of the religion of Islam. Muslims believe that there is only one God, translated in Arabic as Allah. Muslims believe that Islam existed long before Muhammad and that the religion had evolved with time from the time of Adam until the time of Muhammad and was completed with the revelation of verse 3 of Surah al-Maeda

    Muhammad (ﷴ) is the founder of the religion of Islam and is regarded by Muslims as a messenger and prophet of God (Allāh), the last and the greatest law-bearer in a series of Islamic prophets as taught by the Qur'an

    With 1.57 billion Muslims, Islam is the second-largest religion in the world and arguably the fastest growing religion in the world

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    obviously such headlines do not sell the newspaper well enough.
    No shit, Randis. Here's another way of putting it: All news is local.

    Most Americans and Europeans people don't give a shit what's going on in Thailand because it's really far away. And Thailand is a fairly brutal place, comparatively speaking. OTOH, when a Danish cartoonist is potentially assassinated while practicing a traditional Western value, well, that matters more to westerners, no? The Danish newspaper didn't provoke Muslims for the sake of provocation, but to make to explore and make a point. And well they did.

    You can make a pretty strong argument that Islamic fanaticism is rooted in Islam itself, not poverty or ignorance or misunderstanding. As ideologies go, it's fairly supremacist and violent. The Quran endorses violence( as well as peace) and a host of other things. Muhammad was fairly enthusiastic practitioner of violence and warfare. Now there's theory and practice. I have no doubt that you could have the Care Bear Religion of Love and Harmony, yet have adherents who would murder others in it's name. That's not really the point. The point is ideology does matter as it relates to the human condition. You can ignore it and sweep it under the rug with platitudes or cowardice, but eventually it will bite you in the ass.

    Maybe a more fitting cartoon would be a muzzled westerner turning his back on the roots of the problem while pointing at the leafs?
    And speaking of roots Randis, what exactly is the root cause in your opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    And speaking of roots Randis, what exactly is the root cause in your opinion?
    IMO it is very similar to the dark ages: Religious corruption, abuse of religion, control by fear, lack of education. We have been there too... People were converted by force in the name of god... witch hunts, and so on and so on and so on... we all know the stories.
    The thing is that in our culture we managed to separate the religions from government and military power fairly well while the Islam incorporates both the matters of church and the matters of state. Not everywhere of course, Turkey for example underwent a reform long ago.
    Religious matters for western people always sound easy to handle because most Christians are not much affected by their religion other than the occasional prayer and a visit of the local church for Christmas. In other countries the people have a much deeper connection and awareness of their religions; the Buddhists in Asia for example incorporate their religion in their daily lifestyle to a much larger degree. Fact is that in many countries people manage to life in harmony with their religions.
    In the end it is up to you if you use a knife as a tool to build something useful or to take someone’s life.

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    This pretty much sums up why people suck.

    If I don't believe in the position of honor placed upon Mohammed by the "Nation of Islam" I should be able to beat the crap out of a Mohammed Pinata and post the video on YouTube without reprecussion.

    I might do it with a Jesus Pinata just to prove Kevin's point...

    Of course, when I start getting death threats from my redneck Texas neighbors ... that will just point me back to my first statement ... "people suck".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    I think we can all agree the KKK and its activities should be illegal. It's right to free speech and organize infringes on the rights of blacks, other minorities, gays, etc. If the KKK had its way, we'd all have a ton of our natural rights infringed - like who we can marry, associate with, etc.
    I absolutely do NOT agree that the KKK should be illegal. No matter how much I hate what they say, they have the right to say it and I will defend that right.

    The answer is not to silence people you disagree with. The answer is to allow them to speak, then to stand up and speak against their ideas. Fight speech with speech.

    Just by speaking and organizing, the KKK are not infringing on anybody's rights. Yeah, they are hateful and horrible and hurtful, but they are not infringing on anybody's rights. Only when they act against other people or make direct threats will they be infringing on anybody's rights, and then the law can deal with them.

    If we silence the people we hate, who will later decide they hate what we say and try to silence us?

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    Noble sentiment, Emily, and there's an Onion story along those lines, "ACLU Defends KKK's right to Burn Cross on ACLU Lawn". However, I'm very glad the US government disagrees with you.

    It's not a simple case of me disagreeing with the KKK. There are plenty of racists out there I disagree with, and I'm fine to let them say whatever they want. But, when you put together an organization based on the hatred and oppression of people - an organization that actively kills black people (note, from 1860-1960 an average of one black person a week was lynched in the US), that's when I have a problem. An organization allows money to be funneled in secrecy to promote oppression. It creates a network of racism that can become powerful - if you're the one guy in town who's not a KKK member, they can come to your house, even the local law enforcement, and arrest you, drive you out of town, or kill you. Historically, all of this has happened multiple times in the US through the KKK. To say the KKK doesn't infringe on peoples rights is to ignore this century long history.

    I'm not talking about silencing people here, I'm talking about the prevention of a violent, malicious organization. Furthermore, free speech is nice, but there are times when what you say HAS to be illegal. Like when a kid yells fire in a crowded theatre, and people get trampled to death. Or when someone lies on national television, saying you killed someone, and they have (falsified) evidence, and now you have to go to court. Or if someone lies and says they're you, and then does something illegal in your name (actually happened to me. Someone borrowed my car and got a speeding ticket which I had to pay for). We need laws to protect people's right to live. Anyone can use speech to infringe on this right just as easily as they might use a gun, or alcohol and a car.

    Just to add, Emily, think for a moment, what you're ideals would entail. The gathering and organizing of the KKK would be legal. They could make pamphlets, march around town, post all sorts of hateful signs, posters, and billboards as "free speech". Imagine a billboard reading "Kill All Niggers" as you drive to work everyday. Yet, any actions like burning a cross on private property would still be illegal - illegal but very hard to prosecute. The organization could have fund raisers to use in all sorts of secretive ways. The only way to fight it would be through the IRS, like what they did with organized crime in the 20th century. Law enforcement would have to dedicate teams to read through all the hateful writing to check for any signs of illegal activity - promoting or planning a lynching, etc... It's a line far too fine to balance.

    Last edited by TASmith; January 3rd, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    However, I'm very glad the US government disagrees with you.
    What do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Historically, all of this has happened multiple times in the US through the KKK. To say the KKK doesn't infringe on peoples rights is to ignore this century long history.
    I never said the KKK has never infringed on people's rights. I said just by speaking and organizing, the KKK are not infringing on anybody's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Just to add, Emily, think for a moment, what you're ideals would entail. The gathering and organizing of the KKK would be legal. They could make pamphlets, march around town, post all sorts of hateful signs, posters, and billboards as "free speech".
    Isn't this how things are now? The KKK have the right to march and hand out literature just like any other group.

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    nope, you need to check your history... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

    The first formation of the KKK was declared illegal in 1871, the same year the NRA formed (coincidence?). It was tolerated in the south despite being illegal after the end of Reconstruction, because the entire south was still so angry over losing the Civil War...

    "In 1871, President Ulysses S. Grant signed Butler's legislation. The Ku Klux Klan Act was used by the Federal government together with the 1870 Force Act to enforce the civil rights provisions for individuals under the constitution. Under the Klan Act, Federal troops were used for enforcement, and Klansmen were prosecuted in Federal court. More African Americans served on juries in Federal court than were selected for local or state juries, so they had a chance to participate in the process.[39] In the crackdown, hundreds of Klan members were fined or imprisoned. In South Carolina, habeas corpus was suspended in nine counties."

    "As 20th-century Supreme Court rulings extended federal enforcement of citizens' civil rights, the long-neglected Force Act and Klan Act from Reconstruction days were revived and used by federal prosecutors as the basis for investigations and indictments in the 1964 murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner;[93] and the 1965 murder of Viola Liuzzo.[94] They were also the basis for prosecution in 1991 in Bray v. Alexandria Women's Health Clinic."

    As for the clan not infringing on rights anymore, what do you think they're going to do once they organize? Pick flowers? Do you know how many churches were burned in the 90's? Or how many people have been planning to kill our new president? Imagine if the KKK were legal, how they could facilitate that. Imagine if they had a right to march and yell hateful things. Imagine you're black, walking down the street and they start yelling at you. Imagine a fight breaks out. Who started it? Who can say? It's imposssible to tell in these situations, and people can get killed. You think this should be legal? You think this wouldn't infringe on your right to live? Would you feel safe in a town with billboards saying "Kill dem Niggers"? What would you tell your children?

    Last edited by TASmith; January 3rd, 2010 at 02:36 PM.
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    The KKK has the right to peaceably assemble due to the 1977 case National Socialist Party v. Skokie. They have the right to march and they do it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    As for the clan not infringing on rights anymore, what do you think they're going to do once they organize? Pick flowers? Do you know how many churches were burned in the 90's? Or how many people have been planning to kill our new president? Imagine if the KKK were legal, how they could facilitate that. Imagine if they had a right to march and yell hateful things. Imagine you're black, walking down the street and they start yelling at you. Imagine a fight breaks out. Who started it? Who can say? It's imposssible to tell in these situations, and people can get killed. You think this should be legal? You think this wouldn't infringe on your right to live?
    I have clearly stated that I separate their right to speak from their illegal actions. I support their right to speak, I do not support the actions. Saying something is NOT the same as doing something. Advocating for the legalization of marijuana is not the same thing as smoking a joint. Saying another group is inferior and doesn't deserve rights is not the same as actually taking away those rights.

    It seems like you think suppressing their right to speak is the answer to the problem. No, that just forces them to go underground, making them harder to track. The answer is to stand up and speak against them. Convince people with the power of YOUR ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emily g View Post
    The KKK has the right to peaceably assemble due to the 1977 case National Socialist Party v. Skokie. They have the right to march and they do it all the time.


    I have clearly stated that I separate their right to speak from their illegal actions. I support their right to speak, I do not support the actions. Saying something is NOT the same as doing something. Advocating for the legalization of marijuana is not the same thing as smoking a joint. Saying another group is inferior and doesn't deserve rights is not the same as actually taking away those rights.

    It seems like you think suppressing their right to speak is the answer to the problem. No, that just forces them to go underground, making them harder to track. The answer is to stand up and speak against them. Convince people with the power of YOUR ideas.
    Something profound about "free freedom of free speech in a free state of free individuals" is being said here.

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    First of all, the case of the National Socialist Party is not the same as the KKK, and just because it earned the right for legal organizations to march, doesn't mean other organization ALREADY illegal all of a sudden had rights reinstated. When the KKK was originally outlawed, it led to a bunch of new splinter groups. Today, there's not one KKK, but a number of these "chapters" with their own name and ambiguous legal rights and goals.

    Note here in wikipedia under KKK:
    "While the FBI had paid informants in the Klan, for instance in Birmingham, Alabama in the early 1960s, its relations with local law enforcement agencies and the Klan were often ambiguous. The head of the FBI J. Edgar Hoover, appeared more concerned about Communist links to civil rights activists than about controlling Klan excesses. In 1964, the FBI's COINTELPRO program began attempts to infiltrate and disrupt civil rights groups"

    So, even if illegal at the time, the government was lax in prosecuting... Leave it to a Hoover to fuck up the country.
    But, if you read further...

    "As 20th-century Supreme Court rulings extended federal enforcement of citizens' civil rights, the long-neglected Force Act and Klan Act from Reconstruction days were revived and used by federal prosecutors as the basis for investigations and indictments in the 1964 murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner;[93] and the 1965 murder of Viola Liuzzo.[94] They were also the basis for prosecution in 1991 in Bray v. Alexandria Women's Health Clinic."

    1991 is more recent than 1978, although the case wasn't used in relation to a racist march, rather a protest rally against an abortion clinic. Apparently, this is more up in the air than either of us thought. I found a couple articles on the New York Times, all reporting arrests, but none discussing if the basic right is there or not...

    EDIT: this article gives some insight into why this organization's legal status turned grayer in the 20th Century: http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/...ked=4&item=kkk

    " Like a modern political lobby, the group was so influential that many politicians felt compelled to court it or even to join, particularly in the Midwestern states. Senators, congressmen, governors, judges at all levels, even future President Harry Truman donned the hood and robe (though Truman shortly quit, apparently disgusted by an anti-Catholic tirade)."

    EDIT 2: Emily you were right and I was wrong. The KKK was illegal, but it's not anymore: http://www.adl.org/20faq/20q.asp

    Interesting read. That's what I get for listening to Michael Moore... I still believe in what I wrote above, though, that the Klan shouldn't have the right to assembly. It all hinges on what the ADL mentions here, "The Government also may deny a permit if it can prove that protestors specifically intend to engage in criminal activity." Farther down it states, "Protestors who engage in acts of criminal intimidation or assault do not receive protection simply because they commit those acts while simultaneously exercising their right to free speech. "

    So, if any law authority can prove that a protestor intends to intimidate others, they can deny the protest. I'd say a KKK rally is by definition intimidating, and therefore ought to be denied... I think it's a sign of the times that this issue has died down enough we can even allow them to protest. I bet if the movement really started gaining ground, we see it as more of a threat and limit it further.

    Last edited by TASmith; January 3rd, 2010 at 04:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R a n d i s View Post
    In the end it is up to you if you use a knife as a tool to build something useful or to take someone’s life.
    Of course some knives are more suited for harm than others.

    The problem is that you can't separate Islam into nice little bits like you've described. It's been tried and it appears to be failing. Turkey didn't manage this 'long ago', but rather about 80 years ago via Kemal Ataturk. Turkey is the secular successor to the Islamic Ottoman empire, and if current political trends are any indication, it's slipping back to it's old self. You don't erase thousands of years of history with 80.

    You can make a strong argument that because of the way Islam is structured and has been practiced since it's inception, that Islamic societies can't be adapted to the western model of discrete separation. It also appears you can't even have Muslims in western societies which can adapt to western norms, at least not in large numbers. Time will tell, but this is all a really giant experiment. Which is why it's also very important to stick to western values no matter what the threats or consequences. If you can't defend the right of someone to draw a cartoon, what can you defend?

    Last edited by Elam; January 3rd, 2010 at 07:19 PM.
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