Danish Cartoonist nearly assassinated by Islamist - Page 2

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    "If you don't care about free speech issues, please don't bother responding"

    Kev, it's funny you say this after touting the importance of all free speech. The great thing about this statement is, the only people whose speech you're trying to control wouldn't care anyway, because they don't care about free speech. ingenious!
    Although you aren't entirely serious, this argument is a lil' pet peeve of mine. Expressing disdain for the speech of others is not contrary at all to the freedom of speech, in fact it is an essential ingredient. Kev would only be hypocritical if he tried to do something like murder the people he expressed disdain for.

    As Voltaire said, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    In all seriousness, it's a horrible crime to take a life, and this attempted assassin should get a serious prison sentence. It's disgusting that a religion or country would put a price on someone's head. I hope to see a day when all these hostilities can just end...
    I do believe that this is the usual case when it comes to extremists of any sort, their actions and proclamations say more about their own character than that of their religion or nation. Such scum could be found in any corner of our Earth, but they rarely speak for whomever or whatever they claim to speak for.

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  4. #32
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    Well, extremism is basically the tendency to do whatever it takes to further your cause, the reasons behind extremist agendas are a lot more complex than simply "religion", and the true cause is based upon nationality, race, culture, terretory, money or whatever combination of these. But religion is an effective way to gather more extremists. Religion strikes fear in those who believe, and fear of an almighty god is stronger than fear of death or injury fighting the supposed enemies of said god, which is why extremists claim religious justifications for their actions.

    In this case, what if Denmark was not involved in the Afghan and Iraq wars, how likely is it that there would have been such an outcry in the Muslim world? Would there have been a debate in Denmark's muslim community, would there be a public debate on free speech/hate speech/cultural sensitivity/satire and religion? Likely, but I don't see riots in Iran as a probable result of a minor caricature. However, factor in the Danish presence in the war on terror/violent extremist islamists, and you've got yourself a different situation.

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  6. #33
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    I think back when that caricature appeared I read that the muslims weren't so much only angered that Muhammad had a bomb on his head but that he was pictured in the first place because as far as I know it's forbidden in Islam.

    But regarding to this incident I don't think he deserves to die or anything but basically I think he went a bit overboard.

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  7. #34
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    CAMEL BALLS Z
    Sangohamed vs Vegesus

    Caaaa... Mel... Haaaa.... Mel.... Mell... HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

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  9. #35
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    Somebody should call the WAA-mbulance for these muslim idiots.

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craz View Post
    Somebody should call the WAA-mbulance for these idiots.
    Fixed!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fq4wZ_lQjc

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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PieterV View Post
    You seem to be implying that I think it's only muslims who can be this stupid. I didn't say that or anything like it. The only reason I included the word muslim in my post was because I didn't want people to think I meant the cartoonists or, come to think of it, anyone in this thread.
    They are idiots. They are muslims. Someone should call a WAA-mbulance.

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  13. #38
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    For a second here I thought a thread from a couple of years ago got necro'ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The simplicity is this: Either you believe in free speech, even speech you find offensive, even speech that angers people who are dangerous and of whom you are afraid.

    Or, you allow might to make right. That violent behavior should be allowed to silence speech by killing or threatening to kill the dissenter (and by extension, any follow-on dissenters). And that it is not the role of society to protect or defend anyone who dissents from the dogma of those willing to use intimidation to silence their critics.
    In this post and the OP you seem to actually believe that it's this black and white. That people are either for free speech, and that this would mean people should be able to say anything they want without taking responsibility for it, ór that you think it's okay people get tortured and killed for whatever they've said.

    Do I really have to point out the flaw in this line of thinking?

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  14. #39
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    In this post and the OP you seem to actually believe that it's this black and white. That people are either for free speech, and that this would mean people should be able to say anything they want without taking responsibility for it, ór that you think it's okay people get tortured and killed for whatever they've said.

    Do I really have to point out the flaw in this line of thinking?
    He just put two ends of the spectrum.

    I am wondering, how does one tackle or address violence with freedom of speech?

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  15. #40
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    The context of this thread is that a man who drew some cartoons is in fear for his life and was nearly killed.

    In this context, the question of protected free speech in free societies becomes starkly personal and binary, the moral question becomes an existential one:

    1.) Either this man is hunted and hounded by people who want him dead until he is dead from natural causes, or stress-induced causes, or is actually murdered by his assailants.

    Or

    2.) He is left alone on the grounds that he should be able to criticize religion in the ordinary course of the free exercise of his human right to speak his mind.

    The test is this: Even if you are enraged by his cartoons, will you still stand up for his right to life and liberty? Or... the only other option that I can see is that you believe matters should "take their own course", up to, and including, the possibility of his murder.

    I don't see how one can equivocate here. Either the man lives free or is hunted until he is killed or dies.

    (I suppose a third option might be to lock him up or deport him, both of which criminalize criticism of religion. Which, to my mind, is fascism.)

    ------
    Some quick notes on other arguments:

    The point about Christians and "pooping on the pope" is a different example as it is a direct physical attack on a revered figure. More exact comparisons to the Danish Cartoons incident are the following well-known cases involving performance or art:

    Sinead O'Connor (ripped up a picture of the pope on tv): No attempts on her life due to that incident that I can find. Much hand-wringing.
    Andres Serrano (Piss Christ photo): No attempts on his life. Outcry that public funds were used. Picture was physically attacked.
    Renee Cox (Yo Mama's Last Supper - photos): No attempts on her life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.
    Chris Ofili (Holy Virgin Mary with porn and dung): No attempts on his life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.

    Given the subdued reaction to these high-profile, comparable, and recent examples of anti-christian expression, I think the comparison made by Jovian M fails.
    --------
    Randis, can you give me an example of speech critical of a religion, that will not be considered hate speech by fundamentalist members of that religion? Please use radical Islam as your example.
    --------------------------

    Anyway, I'm glad to see that this discussion is an actual discussion. Let's all try to keep it that way if we can.

    kev

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  17. #41
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    EDIT - deleted: Nah, I got rid of this too. It's one of those days where I can't seem to say what I want so it's best not to post at all

    Last edited by Baron Impossible; January 2nd, 2010 at 12:08 PM.
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  19. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The context of this thread is that a man who drew some cartoons is in fear for his life and was nearly killed.

    In this context, the question of protected free speech in free societies becomes starkly personal and binary, the moral question becomes an existential one:

    1.) Either this man is hunted and hounded by people who want him dead until he is dead from natural causes, or stress-induced causes, or is actually murdered by his assailants.

    Or

    2.) He is left alone on the grounds that he should be able to criticize religion in the ordinary course of the free exercise of his human right to speak his mind.

    The test is this: Even if you are enraged by his cartoons, will you still stand up for his right to life and liberty? Or... the only other option that I can see is that you believe matters should "take their own course", up to, and including, the possibility of his murder.

    I don't see how one can equivocate here. Either the man lives free or is hunted until he is killed or dies.

    (I suppose a third option might be to lock him up or deport him, both of which criminalize criticism of religion. Which, to my mind, is fascism.)

    ------
    Some quick notes on other arguments:

    The point about Christians and "pooping on the pope" is a different example as it is a direct physical attack on a revered figure. More exact comparisons to the Danish Cartoons incident are the following well-known cases involving performance or art:

    Sinead O'Connor (ripped up a picture of the pope on tv): No attempts on her life due to that incident that I can find. Much hand-wringing.
    Andres Serrano (Piss Christ photo): No attempts on his life. Outcry that public funds were used. Picture was physically attacked.
    Renee Cox (Yo Mama's Last Supper - photos): No attempts on her life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.
    Chris Ofili (Holy Virgin Mary with porn and dung): No attempts on his life. Picture not attacked. Hand wringing.

    Given the subdued reaction to these high-profile, comparable, and recent examples of anti-christian expression, I think the comparison made by Jovian M fails.
    --------
    Randis, can you give me an example of speech critical of a religion, that will not be considered hate speech by fundamentalist members of that religion? Please use radical Islam as your example.
    --------------------------

    Anyway, I'm glad to see that this discussion is an actual discussion. Let's all try to keep it that way if we can.

    kev
    In this single case, the answer's pretty clear yeah. The cartoonist didn't do anything wrong, and the cartoons themselves weren't even that bad. They were actually rather tame, so where the whole outrage came from is beyond me.
    As for my previous reply, I was talking about free speech in general. (In which case I'm siding with Randis, no hatespeech). There are more options to pick than just the two extremes on the spectrum, where it's either everything or nothing.

    And really, this subject encompasses so much more than Danish cartoons or the Islam.

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  20. #43
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    The people who are trying to kill this guy don't believe in the kind of selfish individualism that freedom speech is seen as a symptom of. It's all very well saying educate them and give them personal freedom, democracy and a place in society, but only takes a handful of influential nutters to fuck it up for everyone - the 'solutions' to the problem are what they're fighting against.

    Of course moderate westernised christians don't have the same attitudes, although if you keep poking them in the bum, who knows what'll happen.

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  21. #44
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    Kev, I do not have examples. I am not a big follower of religious news and scandals.
    All I say is that the Medias let slide jokes like this about Islam while they would never
    print equally offensive material about Christian religion.

    Ripping apart some picture of the Pope? Ok… That is not very controversial IMO.
    Let’s say: some dark forest redneck family who happened to be fanatic Christians
    butcher 12 kids in the name of god and make it on the big news. No newspaper will
    print a cartoon of Jesus with bloody butcher knives. They would get a couple calls
    from pissed Christian families and do a call back.
    There are also some anti-Semitic Christian movements… can you imagine the
    newspapers printing Jesus or any other Christian prophet holding up a swastika
    symbol? I don’t think so!

    On the other hand, showing a Islamic prophet with a bomb, linking the religion as
    the root of all recent terrorist attacks will naturally piss off a really wide audience.
    The cartoonist was attacked because some extremists placed a head bounty
    of 1 Million $.
    That is the reason for his fear and not because every random Muslim would kill
    him for disrespecting his religion.
    If any other fanatic organization or terrorist cell would hand out 1m bounties
    people would kill regardless of the original reason.

    There have been many violent protests with casualties regarding this matter
    and this alone is the reason why the Medias kept reprinting the cartoons,
    lighting the fire. If 60% of asked cartoonists turn down the job, it would give every
    normal human to think if that is the right way to adress the problem. There vast
    majority of Muslims in various countries all over the world have nothing to do with
    the acts of terrorism or other horrible news you see on the news.

    There is a difference between free opinion, provocation, propaganda and hate speech.
    If the medias keep putting oil in the fire for 2 years, despite massive protests
    (massive protests usually imply hate speech...because people feel massively offended)
    then there will be blood regardless of the topic. It could be about religion, it could be
    about beer, you name it.
    All it takes is pissing off a group of people long enough and someone will eventually
    beat you to a pulp. It is like running into the wrong corner of a soccer stadium and calling
    some drunk fans looser after a bad match. You know it is legal and still they will break your legs.

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
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  23. #45
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    They should start a Muhhamed of the week activity on ca.

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  25. #46
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    Randis, nobody said the cartoonist was being stalked by any Muslim, as Muslims in general, by my estimation, are peacable people.

    Radical fundamentalist Islamists, however, will act to win the bounty prize, even knowing full well they can be killed or jailed in the process. Only a believer in the mission, therefore, would make such an attempt. If it was just about the money, you would see many types of bounty hunters taking shots at the cartoonist. But you don't, so your point doesn't hold. The facts don't lie... This act was about religion, not money.

    Next: Since there aren't any bounties to use as an example from Christianity or Judaism against anti-christian or anti-jewish art or performance, your counter example is a straw man... simply not relevant.

    Another straw man, your hypothetical example of the family in the woods... There is no significant movement within Christianity akin to radical Islam in size or ferocity. If there were, there should be a picture of Jesus with a bomb in his hair or robes or wherever. But there isn't, so there isn't.

    Furthermore, your refusal to acknowledge the accuracy of my examples of similar outrages not garnering similar responses was disconcerting. Let's put it very simply, just substitute out the Christian diety for the Muslim diety in Piss (P*) Christ and see if you find it offensive...

    P* Christ = P* Mohammed

    (Because sometimes this site is subject to islamist cyber attacks, I have deliberately pulled the punch on the above formulation. You can figure it out for yourself.)

    Anyhow, I think the above fictional formulation makes the point quite clearly. Had the second one been created, there would have been a fatwa. The first one WAS created, and there was no christian equivalent to a fatwa. It seems a simple, undeniable point.

    Not incidentally, the anti-christian works I named above were viewed by me through various national media sources, with the same degree of availability as the Danish cartoons were, in my estimation.

    And of course, now, you can view any of the anti-christian works mentioned previously all over the net, all over the world... Piss Christ, Yo Mama's Last Supper, The Virgin Mary with dung and porn, and other such works... and yet there is no bounty out there to kill any of the artists involved. So again, your point doesn't hold in that regard.

    Lastly, your final paragraphs remind me of the old "she wore sexy clothing, so she deserved to be raped" defense. Reading it was sickening. People lives are more important than the words they speak. People who kill others over words and symbols are INSANE. Part of the role of government is to protect their citizens from violence and insanity.

    Imagine if I were a Radical Feminist. I might think that your artwork, which has lots of nude women in it, is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. Given your previous statements, I'll assume that you think it is okay that I slit your throat based on my perception of your artwork. Because, after all, your work is provocative for no other reason than you like nude women in subservient poses. Women in subservient poses, to a radical feminist, is demeaning hate speech. Ergo, you deserve what you get. Would you agree?

    I hope you appreciate the situation a bit better now.

    Baron Impossible... you took the last train out of Dodge. Smart fellah.

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  27. #47
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    I think this is well beyond a free speech issue, if it ever was one to begin with. Most often i see no efforts to separate millions of peaceful muslims from a handful of extremists - by either side of the debate.

    (this applies to media and politicians who push this case, not necessarily individuals in discussions i've had.)

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    You are missing the poin Kev, like totally.

    Do you know that in Thailand alone there are large Islamic extremist groups killing innocent people, children and so on… Soldiers have to give teachers escort, because they get killed sometimes…
    Right now, as we speak, someone is killed somewhere.
    Do they show it on the news? No, they show some freaking cartoon and argue while hiding behind the right of free speech.

    In some Islamic countries it is illegal to import or posses the bible.
    Christians are killed, Buddhist temples are burned down.
    Small Children of Christian families were raped because the parents refused to convert to islam.
    Do they show it on the news? No, they show some freaking cartoon and argue while hiding behind the right of free speech.
    There is so much horror going on and some ‘almost’ assassinated cartoonist in Denmark is getting the big news while no one dares to point the finger at the real problems.
    It’s a double standard. Convenient news are convenient.
    While we are discussing cartoons this things happened and no one seems to give a shit:

    2010.01.01 (Shah Hason Khel, Pakistan) - Children are amply represented among over one hundred spectators massacred at a volleyball tournament by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.

    2009.12.31 (Yala, Thailand) - Two civilians riding a motorbike are shot to death by Islamic militants.

    2009.12.31 (Kalat, Pakistan) - Two oil truck drivers are shot to death by Muslim radicals.

    2009.12.31 (Uruzgan, Afghanistan) - Six civilians are beheaded by Islamic hardliners.

    2009.12.30 (Bajaur, Pakistan) - A tribal elder is brutally murdered by the Taliban and dropped by the roadside.

    2009.12.30 (Baramulla, India) - Hizb-ul-Mujahideen gunmen open up on four Indian cops at point-blank range, leaving all four dead.

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 04:20 PM.
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  31. #49
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    I don't care how offensive this guy's cartoon was, putting a price on his head and calling for his murder over it is fucking absurd.

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    So what you're trying to say Randis is that Islam is bad and we need to get rid of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    So what you're trying to say Randis is that Islam is bad and we need to get rid of it?
    I vote getting rid of all religions and cults.

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    of course not, you can not solve murder with more murder right?
    What would be the best solution?
    Any idea? Any better idea than all the other ideas that has been tried or suggested over the years by countless individuals, governments and organizations?
    of course not, you cannot solve murder with more murder right?
    What would be the best solution?
    Any idea? Any better idea than all the other ideas that has been tried or suggested over the years by countless individuals, governments and organizations?
    I am sure that the one or another has some ideas but then again they can be spoken out loud without
    Sounding politically incorrect or without offending some minorities, human rights and so on…
    Sometimes it seems tough addressing issues by name.
    Maybe a more fitting cartoon would be a muzzled westerner turning his back on the roots of the problem while pointing at the leafs?

    Last edited by Randis; January 2nd, 2010 at 05:04 PM.
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  36. #53
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    Ah, I've heard of this cartoon, a news presenter in Algeria is jailed for life just for reporting/talking about this cartoon on the news o__o.

    Hmm, I think there's not really much point discussing issues like islamic radicals/murders/freedom of speech and whatnot, none of that will ever get solved, ever. It's just a waste of time even contemplating a solution, best to give up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyskoa View Post
    I vote getting rid of all religions and cults.
    Humm, I dunno. That sounds easier than it is. People grew up with this, since generations, the religions are part of people lifestyles, getting rid of the religions would mean getting rid of the people?
    Christianity was abused by the churches, they used the Christians to commit countless horrible crimes in the name of god, converting others by force and so on and so on, but it calmed down and with education light came into people life.
    If you look at Istanbul you will see that the people are very modern, liberated and peaceful.
    In many big cities of our planet people of many different religions coexist peacefully.
    This is a very complex topic…
    But i think the wish to change must come from the people and cannot be forced upon them by a 3th party... This probably is something that will take a long time.

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  39. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyskoa View Post
    I vote getting rid of all religions and cults.
    1) How would you accomplish that?

    2) Getting rid of religions and cults would destroy one of the many foundations of free speech and expression.

    If the assassination would have been successful then the cartoonist would have been a martyr for free speech; unfortunately, with a few broken Middle-easterns skulls.

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    I personally don't have anything against religion itself. I think it's something people can get strength from, comfort, motivation, and a sense of belonging. Some local churches do charity work and collect money, clothes and toys for the underprivileged and their kids. I think it's really too bad that there are some who will use religion as a tool to hurt others, or for their own benefit.

    But, I don't think it's religion's fault. If it was hypothetically possible to take people's religions away, it would simply be replaced with something else, for instance nationalism, or clinging on to/creating a new group to identify yourself with. If you were to take religion away, it wouldn't take away the problems people have that are often at the roots of a war, civil war, or simply a protest march.

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    ... Again, trying to avoid the minefield in general here, but there seems to be a continued attempt to skew definitions and facts.

    The assumption that because something is not as widely reported (especially in mainstream media in a limited area), that it therefore does not exist, is utterly ridiculous.

    If an example is required of free speech leading to death, here is one:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(group)
    And a simple Google search for Christian, Radical, or Militia can provide legions more examples. Just as it would likely provide examples if you substituted most religions into that search.

    The direct issue with fanatics is that they are distinct and separated from the vast majority of the religion they are said to represent, often publicly declaring themselves to be so. This is the case both with many of the Islamic groups, as well as the example I cited and would naturally flow into most others that could be found. The direct representational bodies of religions are usually condemning the extremists as well, which again has happened in both the Islamic and Christian examples.

    In regards to hate speech. Hate speech is not defined by the definitions of the fanatical sector. It is usually defined by a cooperative understanding between the society and the parties involved, with some primary guidelines based on reasonable assertion. An example of a guideline would be that broad sweeping statements concerning the entirety of a group in a negative light which are demonstrably false, would be hate speech. The cartoon in question would easily fall into that. And this is even before the consideration that a depiction of their religious figurehead, even in a positive light, would have been directly insulting due to the tenants of their religion, fanatical or not.

    kev ferrara:
    I would also recommend looking up the definition of a straw man argument, since you are using them yourself.

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    I agree that a world where there would be no more sibling rivalry between the abrahamic religions would be a nicer place. But no more religions or cults.. thats kind of harsh. We would probably need to outlaw rock 'n roll, football and money too then. Art too for that matter. People will always need something larger than themselves to latch on to. And some smart people will always be there to manipulate the stupid masses.

    What to do to fix things? Well, first people should start by educating themselves. People say this a lot, in the sense that education would help stop these problems, but from what i can see there needs to be a bit of education happening on the west "side" as well. If you're gonna believe something, make sure its not propaganda.

    And just listing deaths of innocents in religiously motivated incidents isn't really fair. You got to consider the socio-political situation in the country where it happened. People living in horrible conditions are easier to manipulate into doing horrible things.

    //Edit: Bottom line i think people should try more compassion and understanding of our differences. See what we can learn from others. After living in the middle east for a little while i learned that a lot about community, something i've found missing in my own country.

    Last edited by Slash; January 2nd, 2010 at 07:14 PM.
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    Theechoinside... quick google searches don't cut it:

    From wikipedia:
    Like many other extreme racist groups, (Aryan Nation) has produced many small, transitory subgroups. Rob Mathews formed a group called The Order, which committed a number of violent crimes, including murder. Their mission was to bring about a race war. Dennis McGiffen, who also had ties to the AN, formed a cell called The New Order, based on Mathews' group. The members were arrested before they could follow through on their violent plans.

    At the time of Richard Butler's death, Aryan Nations had 200 members. Butler's World Congress in 2002 drew fewer than 100 people
    It is quite often said that Radical Islam is only a small fraction of Islam as a whole. The usual number is less than ten percent, estimated. Given that Islam has nearly 1.6 billion adherents, we may be talking around 150,000,000 potential radicals. That's a far cry from a few hundred or a few thousand white racist dorks that our government tracks on a daily basis.

    Randis, I am in more agreement with your last posts than those before. And I am very aware of how much mayhem goes on at the barriers between "the core" and "the gap" (to use Thomas P. M. Barnett's terminology).

    I would suggest that the reason the Danish Cartoons are news is because of the west's history of free speech, free inquiry, and the like, which now seems under pressure and threat. Thailand has not had that tradition except intermittently. Regardless, I did know about Thailand and am very concerned about its current plight and ultimate fate. This is one of the reasons why it is so imperative for China and India to become important players on the world stage, as they could both act to mitigate Islamic radicalism in that area of the world, without it being seen as U.S. Imperialism/hegemony at work while at the same time helping to alleviate the financial burden placed upon us in acting as the standing military of the free world for 60+ years.

    Roboko/Randis, what we can do is BE POLITICALLY UNITED against those who would kill, curtail or intimidate the free criticism of any religion, ideology, government, mafia, political party, personage, website, or tv station. It is our most pertinent responsibility to ourselves and posterity. To this end, we must dare to speak plainly, even if that makes us targets of criticism. That is, we must be more interested in what is right and what is true, than what is "popular" or "cool" to think or say. (And, of course, at the foundation of all of this, we must dare to appreciate and believe in the values of western civilization that have brought us so much prosperity and freedom, even as we acknowledge our endless failure to live up to our best ideals.)

    Flashback, my guess is, if the cartoonist in question had been murdered NOTHING would have happened. When Theo Van Gogh was murdered, nothing happened. When Hirsi Ali had to flee the country nothing happened. There is a pattern in that part of the world of dwelling on politically correct sanctimony, rather than actually dealing with an indelicate problem.

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    Randis, you basically said that the cartoonist was inviting violence by provoking people, and that the cartoons/media coverage were trivialising murders that actually happen... but you already made a joke in this thread involving muhammed and jesus. It was funny, and it wasn't as bad as the bomb in the turban, but some "radical islamist" could easily take offense to what you said. If they replied with threats of violence, would you be to blame for a violent reaction? If people drew attention to the threats, would that be trivialising successful acts of violence in other places?

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