Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    303
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts

    Colored pencils on top of oil layers chipping problem

    I was wondering if there is a way to add finishing detail on top of dried oil paint with colored pencils. The main problem is that the pencils remove paint and under layers with the sharp point. Especially dried thin glazed layers.They get chipped easily. I tried to seal the paint with retouch varnish, but the varnish is to slick and has no tooth when I try to work on top of it. Any suggestions or techniques that you might know of that can allow me to work in the Struzan-esqe way except in oils without causing chipping?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,680
    Thanks
    699
    Thanked 596 Times in 283 Posts
    photoshop




    or switch to acrylics and watercolours

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    470
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Maybe try oil pastels or an oilbar/oil paintstick? Conceivably, one could sharpen them to a point, so you'd get something similar to the colored pencil, but with a linseed oil binder and without the sharp hardness of the pencil? If you want to stick with the pencil, maybe try another manufacturer. I've found that different brands of colored pencils can vary wildly in their hardness/softness. Actually, now that I think about it, I'm unsure if this has more to do with the pigment used or the brand itself...

    Last edited by jpacer; November 25th, 2009 at 07:17 PM.
    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    303
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
    hmmmmm oil pastel. That seems interesting. Is Sennelier the brand to go with?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  6. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,683 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Just use paint.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  7. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:


  8. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    470
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    andymania, I don't use oil pastels enough to be able to recommend a brand, but I do know that different brands of both oil and soft pastels can vary quite a bit (just like anything else, right?). If you have a decent art supply store near where you live, you can usually try them out in the store and find one that has the feel/consistency you like. Maybe even bring in an old, dry painting and try them out on that so you can see how the oil painting surface responds to being drawn on with them...

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 225 Times in 153 Posts
    If you're trying to get sharp thin details from the pencils, then I would not recommend pastels or oilsticks. They'd be too bulky. Egg or casein emulsions mixed with some oil paint can make rather thin lines without being lean. Oil mediums like safflower can also help make the paint a bit easier to draw thin lines with also. Some paints are made with safflower, walnut, or poppy. I'm not a Liquin user, but you might investigate that also.

    David B. Clemons
    Website
    Blog
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    116
    Thanked 94 Times in 76 Posts
    I have a professor that recommended using clear gesso (that stuff has an awesome tooth to it!) on top of a dried oil painting if you wanted to go on top with pencil. But keep in mind every other professor I've had said doing that would make the oil paint underneath crack, peel, the gesso layer peel and all sorts of bad stuff. I have tried it and it has worked so far but they're new paintings. Long term there may be problems so it might not be worth the risk for you.

    Probably best to listen to Elwell and just use paint.

    "This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy." -Douglas Adams

    My Sketchbook

    My goal: To get good enough to post in the Finally Finished Forum.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    5,234
    Thanks
    3,512
    Thanked 4,906 Times in 2,547 Posts
    Nope. Just isn't really a way to use color pencils over oils. Oils don't really play well with any other mediums. Sounds like you're trying to emulate Struzan's style...try to find out what specific mediums and techniques he uses and do the same.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  12. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    303
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
    Thanks guys for the responses. I was also thinking about the transparent gesso from liquitex

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  13. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,977
    Thanks
    2,826
    Thanked 6,087 Times in 2,480 Posts
    I actually studied with Thomas Blackshear and took a couple of workshops where he taught this technique, which was all the rage in illustration for awhile. Blackshear was a master at this technique and quite a few people were using it at the time Kazuhiko Sano, Drew Struzan, David Grove,Bernie Fuchs, Rchard Amsel and Michael Dudash.
    Anyway the secret is to lightly spray kamar varnish over the top, just enough to seal the oil or acrylic wash so you can use the pencils; too much and it is too slick, not enough and the pencil picks up the wash and it ruins it. get some cheap canvas boards and practice some washes and then applications of Kamar and pencil till you get the hang of it.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  14. #12
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,683 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Andy,
    Seriously, just use paint. The technique that dpaint describes uses oils (in the rare cases when they're used instead of acrylics) in very thin washes, so that you're not getting an appreciable paint layer, which is then "fixed" by the varnish layer. MyOrangeHat's suggestion (actually her instructor's suggestion, to be fair) is a terrible idea for any work were any sort of permanence is a consideration. Your time would be much better spent learning to get the paint to do what you want it to do, rather than spending the time and effort for what in the end can only be a less satisfactory solution.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:


  16. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,683 Times in 5,021 Posts
    I was going to post some Durers and Holbeins, but thought more contemporary examples might be better:
    http://www.braldtbraldsstudio.com/paintings.html
    http://www.obrienillustration.com/stage1/ships.html
    http://www.dmbowers.com/index.html
    If those guys can get that degree of finish and fine detail using oils, there's no reason you can't.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 1

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside
Register

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook