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  1. #31
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    America has pixar.

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    3D movies (like the recent Up and all those Ice Age movies) are just lame. It's neither there nor here and it looks so fake and cold. Give me the Lion King anytime.

    The worst type of animation are those whose characters are drawn in Japanese anime-style but are animated in traditional cartoon fashion. It's weird.

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    If you think UP was fake and cold then you have no soul.


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    Quote Originally Posted by riceface View Post
    no way in hell im gonna watch american cartoons.. they are all aimed at children, besides a few like family guy and the old disney stuff.. animation content in america sucks for adults..
    There's a couple cartoons that are decent. Avatar: the Last Airbender has a pretty deep storyline, fantastic animation, and even though it aired on Nickelodeon it's really aimed more at teenagers/young adults than little kids. It's worth a watch, anyway.

    I also enjoy shows like Danny Phantom, which is a little more childish, but it's really a parody of itself so it's enjoyable.

    Personally I find that the "adult" cartoons like South Park and Family Guy veer too far over into the crude humor; to me they're just mean and not actually funny. (To this day I have no idea why Stewie is supposedly so hilarious. That character is just weird and annoying.) The Simpsons was sort of entertaining, but I never did watch much of that show.


    I also wanted to make a point about something that was cropping up a lot a few posts back-- there is a reason why anime has such stylized big eyes, and the reason is, they were copying Disney. Tezuka (creator of Astro Boy) was hugely influenced by the design of Disney characters, and most anime artists worked off of Tezuka. Sure, the Japanese exaggerated it more than most current Disney films, but if you look back at the older films and especially the shorts that were current in the 40's-50's when Tezuka was drawing, you can see a lot of similarities in design between Astro Boy and Mickey or the other short characters. Even today Mickey/Minnie/Donald are still pretty stylized. So complaining about the large eyes... when it's really because of Western influence, is a little redundant.

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    .............. I love Ice Age.



    I don't get why people seem to hate 3D, do you guys hate Wall-e? D:

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    did the large eye come from Astro Boy,thanks for inforamtion...
    most 2D anime fan accept Avatar as a really good animation
    Helaine
    is not saying we hate 3D cartoon,but most 3D only target to family for father to watch it with their kid,just not for everyone

    well,i think making 2D animation is quite stressful to do ,in return,the character have all the freedom to have their face skeleton change every frame,art in every second

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helaine View Post
    .............. I love Ice Age.



    I don't get why people seem to hate 3D, do you guys hate Wall-e? D:
    I do actually, although hate is a strong word. I would say I'm indifferent to it, meaning there's 0 interest in the movie just because it's animated in 3D. I don't mind if certain parts of a movie are CGI, like Jurrassic park, or the new Avatar. BUt once a movie is full 3D, I don't need to see it, a general disinterest. This doesn't happen with 2D cartoons / movies.

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    All these creators are for the most part highly appreciative of each other's approach and art.

    Pete Docter is a huge anime fan, John Lasseter is largely responsible for re-opening Disney's 2D studio, Satoshi Kon is highly inspired by occidental cinema and Miyazaki is heavily influenced by European masters such as Yuriy Norsteyn and Paul Grimault (all of whom are well known and appreciated by above animators, yet largely ignored over this side of the ocean).

    Art appreciation is an important part of art education. We'd be closer to the spirit and knowledge of professional animators if we celebrated the wide variety of animation styles and techniques instead of picking 'sides'. These factions don't exist in the higher levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chison View Post
    did the large eye come from Astro Boy,thanks for inforamtion...
    Actually, the large eyes style was influenced by Disney cartoons back in the days, where Osamu Tezuka was trying to simplify animation techniques for efficiency.

    So, it's like a big circle. When I found out about the origin of Anime, I started to enjoy anything that encompasses animation. Though occasionally my enjoyment with Anime tend to be ruined by the over-saturation of fans|inspired artwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekino View Post
    Art appreciation is an important part of art education. We'd be closer to the spirit and knowledge of professional animators if we celebrated the wide variety of animation styles and techniques instead of picking 'sides'. These factions don't exist in the higher levels.
    THIS
    Replace "animator" and "animation" with any artistic form.
    This "fan attitude" is one of the most important things that has to be overcome in order to move from amateur to professional. It's the difference between makers and consumers.


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  15. #41
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    Yo, thanks for the fail replies there. I'm quite far from insecure and am very decided on my stance. If you had actually understood my first post you would have been clued in on that. I do apologize however for underestimating the anybodies who can post here in terms of reading comprehension or being able to explain yourself.
    Thanks for overlooking the rest of my post where it actually addressed yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helaine View Post
    .............. I love Ice Age.



    I don't get why people seem to hate 3D, do you guys hate Wall-e? D:
    I don't hate 3D, I'm actually very interested in it, However, I do think 3D animation still needs more time to mature. It's story telling, and this also goes for 2D, get's repeated often which is probably why people really loved Wall-E and others that stood out from the following formulas we've seen in the last 20+ years:

    Person doesn't fit in and goes to find themselves. In the end they either find where they belong or everyone excepts them for who they are.

    or

    Person isn't very good at a certain task, but with dedication and care they achieve their goals and even beyond.

    or

    Person isn't very good at a certain task, but has the drive and willingness to go for it anyway. They still fail, but find some way to contribute in their own way and be just as good and sometimes better than those who worked hard and did well.(This one seems kind of controversial to some.)

    I think this has been pushed in the last 20 years itself than previously. It is a good way to get your audience to identify with the characters, but considering I grew up through this I'm getting really bored with these formulas. I guess the one dead parent thing should be up there too.

    I kind of miss some of the adventure animations that focused less on direct morals and more on telling a story. I never saw much of those, maybe there were a bunch or I'm not thinking of them, feel free to correct me on this. I'd love to be wrong and find a bunch of awesome animations, I know Don Bluth had a few.

    I think more adults in the western world, or at the very least North America, are more open to cartoons and consider them less kiddie now. We have The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Futurama, and Family Guy which was successful enough to get spin offs. On top of that, 3D movies are more of a family thing than 2D animations were. 3D movies seem to draw in both adults and kids alike because they are directed toward both. As I recall, 9 made 1# at the box office on the first day and did pretty good for a 3D movie that wasn't directed at kids.

    I think in this next decade we're going to see an interesting evolution in animation in terms of audience.

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    Shame things like this aren't as exposed over here as much as the mainstream. http://www.drawnandquarterly.com/sho...a46cdb44d6e400

    http://www.drawnandquarterly.com/sho...a4947f27e3ae4d

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  19. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon_OND View Post
    3D movies (like the recent Up and all those Ice Age movies) are just lame. It's neither there nor here and it looks so fake and cold.
    I'll fight you.

    Last edited by Jovian M; November 10th, 2009 at 11:40 AM.
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    i expected this and get pissed at nerd sites but hating pixar is blashemy, I hate the american 3d movie business, but pixar needs to mature with story telling? are u freakin serious? they are the few that are amazing... take ur nerd rage to a scifi blog

    anyways, heres my gripe, america has the best 3d and i love seeing 3d animation, yet they seem to aim it all towards kids, and u get embarrased watching it cuz they do really stupid jokes like putting in a urban slang word *holla* or some dumb joke. again pixar does none of this just geniune story telling. Thats why on the rare occaison they do something for adults like camerons Avator i will support the hell out of it. usually have to get my 3d animation fix through game cutscenes.. blizzard has awesome ones.

    America seems to have a mentality that everything childish is for kids, games,comics, movies.. etc.. and an adult has to only be an adult.. like a husband figure from the 40's

    anyways anime is great and fills a huge animation niche u can't find ANYWHERE else, and im thankful for that, has stories that adults like. plus their culture lends itself to unique stories. its popularity tho.. also makes them a target for hatred. anime sux! crowd

    the only negative effect i see is from wannabe artist starting out drawing anime, badly.. and buying those stupid how to draw anime books.. but thats a tiny negative

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    Regardless of which animation style is used I think it was meant to complement the story. If we get hung up on animation styles too much we'll loose sight of the story and for what it is.

    Posted for giggles and kicks.

    Disney's Copy and Paste



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  23. #46
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    hunchback is offline I disagree! PENIS! TACO! CHEWBACCA!
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    I prefer this ..

    http://ruanjia.com/

    I think what turned me of to anime and manga is the fans.

    Last edited by hunchback; November 10th, 2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason: chizon click the damn link and prepare yourself :)
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    I think anime got a bad rap personaly.

    Factualy wise, it takes less time to master anime, but they can definetly get creative earlyer on. And I really enjoy how they mix anime and real life together, its a weird blend, its pretty cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enydimon View Post
    I don't hate 3D, I'm actually very interested in it, However, I do think 3D animation still needs more time to mature.
    I actually think it's starting to run out of steam. Back in the original Ice Age and Shrek time (OK, I was younger them) I used to love 3D but now I'm just bored with it. I'm not saying I won't go see a movie just because it's 3D but it's definitely a put off.

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    In the same post where you're outing your friend for how ignorant he is about Anime, you were being ignorant about comics and manga. comics should not be compared to animation (or books, just trowing that one in) and a great comics/manga artist knows how to take advantage of telling a story through a sequence of images or a stand alone illustration. For one, you can look at a page for as long as you want to, and even go back and forth to it at your leisure. The way a page is composed, a panel is illustrated or dialogues are formed are what make comics so special. You just cant translate that into an animation/movie or book. A comic/manga stands on its own; its not a book with pictures, or a photo album of movie stills. If you're going to have an ignorant bias for animation, I dont see why you're complaining that your friend's doing the same.

    Enydimon, I agree! Pixar movies are visually pleasing but their storytelling are not as mature yet. I enjoy their movies for the exact reason you just wrote; they take well established stories and mask them with their own characters, its great but nothing I've never heard of before. While Japanese anime (HunterKiller wrote my favorite storytellers in page one) are mindblowing.

    Last edited by nauvice; November 11th, 2009 at 01:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    Enydimon, I agree! Pixar movies are visually pleasing but their storytelling are not as mature yet. I enjoy their movies for the exact reason you just wrote; they take well established stories and mask them with their own characters, its great but nothing I've never heard of before. While Japanese anime (HunterKiller wrote my favorite storytellers in page one) are mindblowing.
    ...exactly what would you suggest that Pixar improve? Their first two movies got perfect ratings on sites like rotten tomatoes, and remain at perfect ratings. They tackle formats and protagonists that traditional Hollywood wouldn't touch, and each movie gets better. Up was some of the most deeply moving and skilled storytelling I've seen in years. They managed to gain an audience's immediate and continuing sympathy for a character who is on screen all of five minutes, and the themes and parallels between the two main character's stories are some of the deepest I've seen Pixar do yet. o_O

    Seriously, tell me what they can do better that they're not already doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridis View Post
    ...exactly what would you suggest that Pixar improve? Their first two movies got perfect ratings on sites like rotten tomatoes, and remain at perfect ratings. They tackle formats and protagonists that traditional Hollywood wouldn't touch, and each movie gets better. Up was some of the most deeply moving and skilled storytelling I've seen in years. They managed to gain an audience's immediate and continuing sympathy for a character who is on screen all of five minutes, and the themes and parallels between the two main character's stories are some of the deepest I've seen Pixar do yet. o_O

    Seriously, tell me what they can do better that they're not already doing.
    Well I think Enydimon elaborated it pretty well. And actually Pixar's movies are very much typical of traditional Hollywood. It's hard to criticize them for I am a fan, but there's a difference between a story being endearing versus groundbreaking... Their latest movies may be the deepest you've seen them do, but it isnt the deepest in the Animation industry as a whole.

    A cynical widower is on a quest to fulfill his wife's dying wish, but on his adventure he stumbles on odd characters and thus must decide if he should remain emotionally attached to his past or live in the moment and help his new friends in need. On paper, that story is is not bad or new. Sprinkle Pixar magic to it by having a house flying with balloons, a talking dog, cute kid, and a colorful bird and scenery, you've got yourself a great movie. Its still safe, there's nothing wrong about it, it's done really well, and on the surface it is original, but its still the same techniques being done for decades at Disney; you have fantasy, you have cute, you have safe humor, aesthetically pleasing scenery, you have morals, and most importantly, you have the "regular" protagonist and your typical antagonist. They are evolving a working method, great, but their stories are far from radical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristmasBunneh View Post
    I actually think it's starting to run out of steam. Back in the original Ice Age and Shrek time (OK, I was younger them) I used to love 3D but now I'm just bored with it. I'm not saying I won't go see a movie just because it's 3D but it's definitely a put off.
    u make no sense, how about u say real life actors are running out of steam because u dont like the movies uve seen?

    its a medium, and ur personal opinion doesn't mean it ran out of steam for christ sake. ur bored of it because its all for kids, doesn't mean 3d sucks at all, look at any scifi movie it all has 3d in it. district 9?

    i hate when people hate broad things, and make zero sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigeonkill View Post
    Regardless of which animation style is used I think it was meant to complement the story. If we get hung up on animation styles too much we'll loose sight of the story and for what it is.

    Posted for giggles and kicks.

    Disney's Copy and Paste

    Those dirty apes, I cannot believe what I'm seeing, that almost ruined my chil....

    DISNEY IS AWESOME, HAIL THE ALL MIGHTY DISNEY ARTIST, WE BOW TO YOUR GREATNESS.

    (my inner childhood is fighting this video with all it has)

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    Re: the copy/paste video... considering that all those movies (with the exception of Beauty & the Beast) were done well before computers got involved, I don't blame them at all for recycling animations segments quite a bit. When you have how many thousands of frames to draw, any shortcuts you can take are going to help.

    @zwarrior I still politely disagree. How many movies have a 70 year old as the protagonist? More importantly, how many kid's movies have someone so old as their focus? I love Pixar, and even I had a "WTF" moment when I first heard about UP-- completely unwarranted, of course, because it turned out awesome. The plot of adventure and discovery was not new, but there was still some innovation there. Pixar's use of mime and gesture in the beginning half of Wall-E was pretty different too. Who bothers to do a nearly-silent film (in terms of dialogue) these days?

    Pixar appears to be at least trying to make movies for everyone, whereas the competing studios (DreamWorks, I'm looking at you) have far less variety in their plots, and seem to rely on celebrity voices more than anything else to sell their stories. This worked in Shrek and Shrek 2. Anything else... eh. Their animation quality is generally much poorer as well. :/ They drench their movies in pop culture jokes that are not funny five or ten years later. Given the two, I quite prefer Pixar, although I am a little wary about some of their upcoming sequels. Toy Story 3 should be fine, but... do we really need another Cars?

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    Why is this entire thread about American animation versus Japanese animation? Are you all forgetting about all the beautiful animation that comes out of Europe?
    I really don't understand the point about arguing over styles. Anime has tons of individual styles and so does western animation. Compare Spirited Away to Pokemon- they look completely different, or Johnny Test to The Triplets of Belleville, and don't get me started on western/eastern hybrids like Avatar and Tekkonkinkreet (which is directed by an American-born white guy).
    If you're going to be a fan of animation, be a fan of animation, and don't get hung up on the style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridis View Post
    Re: the copy/paste video... considering that all those movies (with the exception of Beauty & the Beast) were done well before computers got involved, I don't blame them at all for recycling animations segments quite a bit. When you have how many thousands of frames to draw, any shortcuts you can take are going to help.

    @zwarrior I still politely disagree. How many movies have a 70 year old as the protagonist? More importantly, how many kid's movies have someone so old as their focus? I love Pixar, and even I had a "WTF" moment when I first heard about UP-- completely unwarranted, of course, because it turned out awesome. The plot of adventure and discovery was not new, but there was still some innovation there. Pixar's use of mime and gesture in the beginning half of Wall-E was pretty different too. Who bothers to do a nearly-silent film (in terms of dialogue) these days?

    Pixar appears to be at least trying to make movies for everyone, whereas the competing studios (DreamWorks, I'm looking at you) have far less variety in their plots, and seem to rely on celebrity voices more than anything else to sell their stories. This worked in Shrek and Shrek 2. Anything else... eh. Their animation quality is generally much poorer as well. :/ They drench their movies in pop culture jokes that are not funny five or ten years later. Given the two, I quite prefer Pixar, although I am a little wary about some of their upcoming sequels. Toy Story 3 should be fine, but... do we really need another Cars?
    There's no point in trash talking the competitive end to make one side look good. We're talking about Pixar, let's focus on them.

    agreed with that copy/paste video... they're re-using their own materials, that's not copying, its smart recycling.

    The part you mentioned about Wall-E was brilliant, I too enjoyed it, the second half of the movie was not as great.

    A good amount of movies have old men as their main character since decades. As for it being new for a kid's movie? Did you not notice his age was just superficial? The way it would affect his character was very subtle (one minute he needs his cane to walk, the next he can run like hell or support a kid on his head). It being a "cartoon" does not excuse those technicalities, especially considering that other animation directors have taken that into account, and because of that, their characters are a lot more believable (ex: Howl's moving Castle).

    That's exactly what I meant by putting "regular" protagonists in quotation marks; Disney characters have always been safe for the general public. Sure they will mask them under a rat, an old man, a robot, etc. But their personalities are not ever complex, they're generic and uncontroversial, and their flaws are simplified and basic so a broad number of people could relate to. Another example is Princess and the Frog; Her race and location are used as art direction, take that surface away, its still the same story retold over again. (actually her individuality was even stripped away because a few cried racism, just proof that Disney are afraid of controversies and deviance, and why their stories will never be complex until they get over that.)

    Last edited by nauvice; November 11th, 2009 at 04:36 PM.
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    May I add that wasn't even Walt Disney's intention when he started the company. Mickey Mouse was a foul mouth drunkard who loved getting in fights and didn't let anyone push him around. Minnie Mouse was very sassy. Annnnd now they are both so... clean and soft.

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    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I like when people argue that anime is "more adult" (exclude hentai) than cartoons. Uhh Japan intended anime for children just as much as we intend cartoons for kids. Manga on the other hand was made for everyone.

    So the kids, vs adult is really BS. For the most part most anime is made for kids. You wouldn't see the mass marketing of toys and products in anime if this weren't the case. Don't confuse American "for kids" standards with Japan's "for kids" standards. It's origins are mostly from Disney too.

    And hasn't seen a really crappy anime? Try Popotan. There are plenty of bad anime out there and usually doesn't make it here for that reason. You haven't watched enough anime if you are telling me there isn't really crappy anime out there. There is some BAD stuff.

    And yes, there are other places that animate besides Japan and US.

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    Ahh, people arguing over animation. How fun, how fun...
    For me, personally, I don't care how or where a show is made, so long as it's good. A story doesn't always have to push boundries to be good, so long as they treat both the audience and the story with respect and intelligence.
    Though I do love anime so. Not for the style, but for their unique storytelling, the way they're not afraid to slow things down and let us get to know the characters, they way they reach to and push beyond subject matters Hollywood wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and how there's just so damn much variety. I would love to love American cartoons as much as I love anime, but their morality pushing, crude, repetitive junk gets on my nerves. And then when a good show does come along, more often than not it gets cancelled far before its prime. I'm still surprised Avatar the Last Airbender wasn't cancelled after the first season!

    Pixar's great too, people. You've got to remember that they've got Disney's thumb on them, so they still have a lot of limitations on what they're able to do. And I think they do brilliantly within their limitations.

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    Ilaekae is offline P.O.W.! Leader, Complete Idiot, Super Moderator Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    "...i am from eastern background so is hard for me to understand the art of realistism
    ,have you ever see a Japanese and Chinese draw a realistic portrait???
    it simply don't work...."

    Chison...WTF are you talking about here?




    ADD: Shit...I should have read a bit further before posting. Already covered...sorry. It just was such a stupid fuckin' post it almost made me piss my pants...

    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
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