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    This must stop!!

    I know this is hard to watch and I hate to see anything to do with animal abuse period but, these mills need to be shut down, they breed in bulk, the animals are then sold to pet stores Pet Co is one of the vendors. This one is in Texas but there are many of these mills around the country. If you look most of the dogs are very similar thus in bread.
    I took the video off due to not being able to watch it myself, short sum up of the video that the ASPCA put up is that the puppy Mills conditions for these future pets are completely appalling and the Mills should be shut down.
    One by one the Mills are being shut down and the "owners" are going to jail!!
    Here's the petition to sign in order to help the cause: Not the video.
    If anyone is on face book you can use this link from the Humane Society to spread the word and try to make it a law to shut down the Mills:
    http://apps.facebook.com/causes/peti.../31?m=843ac102

    Last edited by kelly x; November 8th, 2009 at 01:34 PM.
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    I'm close to this topic because when I lived in NYC I reported and helped to closed down two pet stores that were selling very sick animals to unsuspecting customers, I can't even describe the conditions and these were retail stores. I called the DEP and they cracked down on these dumps and actually closed them down. One of the stores was a Pet Co on and the other one was a no name, in the displays I found one dead lizard that had been there until he was just a dried skin skeleton and three dead hamsters same cage in with other mixed animals.
    If you buy a pet, make sure you know where it came from.
    Rescue shelters are a wonderful resource for getting very grateful and loving pets, don't support the big chains who buy from these mills. Clamp down on breeding abuse.

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    My family bought a puppy recently… the people who sold her to us said she wouldn’t shed, and she does. She also has some internal physical deformity we weren’t informed off. A small piece of her nose is mysteriously missing. Her ears were absolutely filthy, and full of mites. I guess the moral of the story is, look at the dogs ears before you buy it? I dunno. I like my dog, and thankfully she has no personality issues, but I’m kind of mad at myself for financially supporting these people.

    I've been to petco and seen the way the reptiles look... often they look like they are on the verge of death. They get away with it because most people don't know enough to know that reptiles aren't supposed to look like that. In recent years that isn't as much of a problem though, at least where I live.

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    It's criminal to be churning out that many puppies when dogs are being destroyed daily in shelters all over the country. These are largely intended to be disposable pets. Unfortunately unscrupulous people know that many people buy puppies on impulse because they are cute.

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    That's sick. Sometimes you can't even trust breeders either, if for some reason you have to have a pure breed make sure you meet the breeder and the dam and sire.

    Rescue shelters are best, save a life.

    Find out where tropical fish are from too some of them will come from countries where arsenic or dynamite are used to gather stock. This damages reefs and can turn them into dead zones.

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    J Wilson pretty much echoes my thoughts. It's sad to see dogs put in such a terrible environment. The problem there is probably that laws arent hard enough on people who do that kind of stuff, and the second problem is just stupid heartless people trying to make a buck. Thats the world we live in, and is the kind of thing that justifies my belief in karma. Lets hope the bastards behind that get whats coming to them.

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    The only pet I bought from a pet store was in LA, she was old and I saw her everyday when I passed the store, a year later she was still there and nobody bought her due to her age at that point. I went to buy her and the owner asked me if I would prefer to buy a kitten instead, I said no ass hole I want the older cat, no wonder she's been here over a year! Some people are not worthy to be around animals I guess!
    Lindsey, Sorry about your dog but I'm glad she has a good home.

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    I really want to question the need and want to own a domesticated animal. Not because it's particularly abusive but it seems to have created this mess, and it generally serves little purpose these days.

    Not many of us herd livestock, so there isn't a need for a dog there. Very few are blind and require a specially trained dog. The only major reasons I see for owning pets are tradition, feeling of ownership, and the companionship of another species.

    The tradition is to buy your kid(s) a pet once they are old enough so that they have something to play with and it's supposed to teach responsibility. However, toys don't require food, toys can't be abused or neglected, and toys aren't alive. If you want to teach a kid responsibility, give them responsibility in a form that doesn't involve another living organism.

    I think most of us grew up with pets, I sure did, and that's why we have a need to own animals. Then we do the same for our children, and the cycle continues. But it's really getting to the point where that's not a responsible thing to do anymore. I think any current adult-aged generation needs to start putting an end to this tradition. The benefits of a personal human-animal relationship is terribly underweight to the amount of harm coming to animals.

    Not to be graphic, but hundreds of animals are being shoved into gas rooms daily. Not only is it a waste of life but a waste of resources that could be put to much better use. Puppy mills are very common. In my city, you can see all the abandoned and homeless animals running around on the streets. Cats hang outside of restaurants for food. It has become too big, to fast to handle responsibly.

    Don't get me wrong, I know many of us on this site are animal lovers and responsible pet owners. But I fear those are becoming a minority very quickly. Regardless of your feelings towards pet companionship, you have to look at the larger picture and realize that the behavior needs to be seriously pruned.

    These animals can't survive on their own, they rely on humans. So introduction back into the wild is nearly impossible. The only reasonable thing left to do is stop the demand for "new" pets. Only adopt. Take care of all the homeless and sheltered animals first. Once the load on animal shelters and pounds is relieved, then phase out this tradition of owning animals. Let the domesticated populations gradually die-out, naturally of course.

    Let's put an end to that wasteful and horribly irresponsible branch of our economy and society. For the good of both the animals and humankind.

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    Here in Holland these things you mentioned Lindsay are all pretty taken care of with our laws. Not saying it's perfect, because it isn't by far. We've got farms breeding dogs aswell, they are born with too long tongues, legs are to short.. Just to mention a few things. I hate how these animals are seen as simple throw away objects aswell!
    I totally support what you're saying here Kelly. ;-)

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    I don't know what it's like over there but in the UK the penalties for animal cruelty are so weak as to be worthless. It's rare any prosecution is pushed through in the first place. This is a recent case - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Bernards.html - a woman decided to go on holiday and leave 100 St Bernards without food or water. When they were discovered they were all near death, many skeletal and virtually rotting. One in 6 of the dogs died. The penalty she was given is one of the harshest of late, yet she receive only 18 weeks in jail (out in 9) and a ban on keeping dogs... for 10 years.

    Having said that we're not as bad as some European countries I could name, when animal cruelty is a national passtime.

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    I don't understand why breeding new animals is considered a big societal evil by some people. Responsible breeders and responsible pet owners aren't to blame for abandoned cats and dogs. Some people are just dumb and if they didn't have dogs to abandon they would be abandoning chickens or something. (Yes, chickens are a pet now...)

    My parents didn't buy me a dog when I was a kid to teach responsibility, they bought it because I wanted a dog. I don't see the problem there. If you really need a purely practical purpose for a dog, you get a lot of exercise walking it all over the place.

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    Buck weisel, Well put and I agree, that is the main point of this discussion to me, over breeding, mistreatment and a general lack of regard for animal life!!! Most people should not have pets period, especially if they don't take the time to learn the first thing about taking care of them.
    I think the tradition of buying a bunny during Easter for a four year old has stopped thankfully. But, none of the other buying of animals just to appease a child who is too young to care for themselves let alone an other living creature.
    We have learned that neutering animals is a good thing to do so cats and dogs don't run wild, become homeless and starve to death???? This is not upheld enough at all!!
    It is a good idea to actually limit owning and breeding domestic animals, shut down these breeding mills or at least uphold the laws and set high standards in which animals are bred.
    Toobs and Baron Impossible, We have laws here and they are not upheld in general in most States. I found over 14 stray dogs and cats in the last three years that I then took to my home and placed into good homes, I am one person, imagine how many there are out there. Also one rabbit, which I kept. I stole one abused dog and placed him in a home far away too, (but I'm a freak about the mistreatment of kids and any animal.)
    We have camp grounds where I live and every year some of the campers will for some ungodly reason get a cat or dog and then leave it there when they go home???!!!!!! I don't understand this and WTF anyways? Some kind of mascot?
    •Lindsay, I think what they are saying is that you should get animals from shelters and the bad breeders should stop churning out sick puppies... We're all pretty much saying the same thing. Yes it's up to the pet owner after they get the pet to be responsible, but there aren't many responsible owners so the viscous cycle goes on and then the animal gets thrown out and homeless.

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    These animals can't survive on their own, they rely on humans. So introduction back into the wild is nearly impossible. The only reasonable thing left to do is stop the demand for "new" pets. Only adopt. Take care of all the homeless and sheltered animals first. Once the load on animal shelters and pounds is relieved, then phase out this tradition of owning animals. Let the domesticated populations gradually die-out, naturally of course.
    I support pretty much everything you say except that.
    I've owned several dogs as a child and I own two cats now. My life would be significantly less enjoyable without the memories of my past friends and the love that is shared between myself and my cats now.
    So while I fully support proper adoption, spaying and neutering, and shunning mills...I certainly won't take part in de-domesticating these animals. Happily, this "plan" is pretty unrealistic, of course, so I don't feel like much action needs to be taken place on my part in the first place.

    -D

    Last edited by Dusty; November 4th, 2009 at 05:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j wilson View Post
    it's criminal to be churning out that many puppies when dogs are being destroyed daily in shelters all over the country. These are largely intended to be disposable pets. Unfortunately unscrupulous people know that many people buy puppies on impulse because they are cute.
    their cuteness doth beith their undoing!
    Bwahahaha!!!
    But seriously though, that is some pretty fucked up shit going on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    I really want to question the need and want to own a domesticated animal.
    happiness, they give it to us and we give it to them, and theres no downside when its done right.

    i understand what your saying though, we take animals for granted, shit i think people take children for granted too, look at teenage pregnancy, was the issue this bad before contraceptives?

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    Our two dogs were one day away from being "destroyed" when we adopted them from rescues. Crash (our border collie) was found via petfinder.com; as was Nubb (our nubby tailed heeler).

    Also, beware of some breeders who will just take whatever dogs they can't "get rid of" to a shelter and that'll be it; which is what happened to Crash. Luckily, the border collie rescue person found it in herself to take just one more from the shelter and that little guy was our Crash.

    So, rescues are another source for some wonderful fur and feathered companions.

    The local Petco in our town has moved away from mills and has been featuring cats/dogs from the local humane society. So - not all chain pet stores are bad.

    People just need to be aware that their actions - their wallets - have consequences. Choose where you adopt your cat, dog, parrot, ferret, etc. wisely.

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    wow thats pretty bad

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    If anyone is on face book you can use this link from the Humane Society to spread the word and try to make it a law to shut down the Mills:
    http://apps.facebook.com/causes/peti.../31?m=843ac102

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    Oh god, this is horrible! Poor animals, I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would do something like this? I love animals, I just... can't bare to see things like this. Fuck.

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    that was sad to watch :c


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    I support pretty much everything you say except that.
    I've owned several dogs as a child and I own two cats now. My life would be significantly less enjoyable without the memories of my past friends and the love that is shared between myself and my cats now.
    So while I fully support proper adoption, spaying and neutering, and shunning mills...I certainly won't take part in de-domesticating these animals. Happily, this "plan" is pretty unrealistic, of course, so I don't feel like much action needs to be taken place on my part in the first place.

    -D
    I didn't mean to discount the emotional benefits of owning a pet. A healthy relationship between man and animal can be a beautiful thing. But it's not really about that. There is a problem that those good feelings can't justify. It's almost selfish to let this problem continue just so one could continue those feelings.

    We have to approach this problem with our intellect rather than our hearts. Otherwise we can't see the forest for the trees, sorry for the cliche. So let's look at it objectively.

    1) Humans used selective breeding to virtually create domesticated animals. These animals have no niche. No natural predator, and lack the sharp survival instincts of wild animals. They can not hunt in order to feed themselves but must scavenge. Vast introduction, basically letting all of them free, into an ecosystem of which they don't belong would be bad. Humans have taken species and introduced them into non-native ecosystems before, it never turns out well.

    2) At one time most of these animals had a purpose, but now they do not. Bull dogs were bred to fight bulls, pointers and retrievers were for hunting, collies were sheppards, etc. The vast majority of the population, at least in the US, do not own livestock. This renders most species useless in that sense.

    3) Any pet owner can tell you how expensive food/supplies are. Why are we feeding animals we don't need? There are plenty of humans who could use that money. I'm not saying a human's life is particularly more valuable than a pet's. It just seems awfully wasteful. This is a side effect of growing up in US society. We unnecessarily create reasons to spend money. Dolls are a great example. Person owns a doll, they buy clothes for it. A toy has a change of clothes. They buy doll toys for it. A toy playing with toys. They buy fake food for it. Why is this acceptable? If people will invest money in something that can't love you back, imagine what they spend on something that can.

    Look at it from an alien's point of view. Humans manufacture a living creature for no reason but to have it follow them around. They spend money to feed it, build it a house, and give it toys. Some even pay to cloth it. Go even further and you see people sending these creatures to daycare, spa's, and beauty salons. Why is owning pet more justified than owning a pet that you send to a spa? Other than it makes you feel good. You could say that the pet feels good too, but if the pet didn't exist it wouldn't feel bad.

    And people may wonder why I care about what other people do what they want with their money. "They're living within their means, if they want to buy 50 dogs and can afford it, why does it matter?" It matters because the world is bigger than the one guy. In the US we are very individual-centric. "e pluribus unum" Out of many, one. It's on our money. Don't get me wrong, the attitude has been beneficial to us. But we also live in a society. There are times when the individual must work with and consider the many. I seriously doubt the founding fathers meant for us to disregard everyone else in the interest of ourselves.

    So it goes back to "Why should you care? He can afford it." Society can't. Obviously society can't handle it. Regardless of how many are responsible pet owners, there is a larger amount of those who are not. If individuals disregard that, then the meme of pet ownership spreads and the problem continues.

    We have made a mistake somewhere along the way. We must fix it as a whole. You're responsible because you're part of society. We're all responsible for the problem. So we gotta fix it and everyone can't go "Well it's not my problem."

    4) Let's say that a responsible pet owner owns ten dogs for the full length of the dogs' lives. That's what? 10-20 years? At least every week of those 10-20 years there are, and lets be conservative, 50 dogs put down. In 15 years that's 780 dogs that are killed. Compared to ten? Simply being a responsible pet owner and not doing anything else doesn't seem to work out. Even if 50 dogs a month are put down, that's way too many.

    5) And the most obvious that's been stated many times is the abuse. Starvation, poor living conditions, and abandonment. Female animals are impregnated and birth more litters than they probably would in a natural setting. Snakes are flushed down the toilet, and released into the wild. Cats roam the streets of the city I live in. You can literally go to any restaurant in a low-income neighborhood and see them hanging around for scraps. Pets are great when they're young and cute, but not so much when they're adults. Then it's not cute. So it's time to kick them out. We can just pick another up from the local mill.

    For every market there is a sub market. There is a market for legal, healthy pets. People want to get in on that. The idea of business is to make more than you spend. Irresponsible people cut corners and produce as many goods as they can with as little as they can. The only difference in this instance is that the product is a living organism instead of cheap plastic. A normal business wouldn't make money. If you buy something cheap, it breaks, you don't buy again. You buy a puppy, "Hey! It's breathing and cute, must be healthy!" It doesn't break because it's alive so the business succeeds. Only people who know the score know when they're getting ripped off and when the animals are suffering. Our economy just isn't built for the welfare of living organisms that are bought and sold.

    So either that branch of the economy needs to end, or there needs to be serious government regulation. Of course then half the country is in an uproar because they're afraid that puppy mill regulation = communism. Since it's an unnecessary market, why go through all the trouble? Why spend tax dollars and time waiting for congress to pass some slightly stricter but ultimately useless regulations to shut up animal rights activists without offending political conservatives? The people can do the job themselves. We have bigger problems for the government to focus on anyways.



    So that's five logical reasons why owning pets is weird/useless/problematic. Compared to one reason for pet ownership: "Cause I love animals."

    I really am sorry for writing a freakin essay on the topic, but I feel misunderstood. I figured the idea of not having pets would be hard for people. Especially those of us who grew up with pets and love animals. But it's not our place to own them. It was excusable a few hundred years ago. Even more so thousands of years ago when humans would flip a shit over anything shiny too. But we're moving out of infancy as a species and this is something that should be left behind. Yes they're soft, cute, cuddly, and they can love you back. But we're really doing much more harm to them and ourselves than we think. If we care, we will let them go.

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    Haha well said mate ;-), essays for the win!

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    I really am sorry for writing a freakin essay on the topic, but I feel misunderstood. I figured the idea of not having pets would be hard for people. Especially those of us who grew up with pets and love animals. But it's not our place to own them. It was excusable a few hundred years ago. Even more so thousands of years ago when humans would flip a shit over anything shiny too. But we're moving out of infancy as a species and this is something that should be left behind. Yes they're soft, cute, cuddly, and they can love you back. But we're really doing much more harm to them and ourselves than we think. If we care, we will let them go.
    I appreciate the long post and I did read the entire thing, but I still disagree entirely. You can think that's "selfish" all you want and I respect your passion to the subject but it's definitely not something I will ever subscribe to.

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    Hi Lord M and Oni Rem, I know it is a horrible thing to watch, I don't watch thinks like this normally they give me nightmares while I sleep! This video was put out by the ASPCA and at first I was shocked, then it dawned on me that if they had to go to such extreme measures and show the real down and dirty deal they must be desperate for change now.

    Thanks Patricia

    Now, BuckWeisel, I agree with every single thing you posted and in a perfect World none of this would have ever happened in the first place. The fact is that it is a real issue, animals live with us and it is realistic to ask people to get rid of their companions at this point in time, if ever. I'm with Dusty on this one.
    As far as I'm concerned my pets own me at this point, hahaha.
    We were born into this love of the domestic pet, as a kid I had three cats that slept around my head and feet, chickens that were pets with names, hamsters, rabbits and a duck who pooped every where, we loved them all and all of our animals from either shelters or people who could not take care of them.
    And as I said I've relocated many pets into loving homes, so many people love animals!!
    1)A good first step is helping to spread the word on stopping illegal breeding at these mills, close them down. (some people have already gone to jail, not just fines)
    2)Making sure people know how to care for their pets and if they are up to it.
    3)Neuter strays and place them in good homes.
    4)Proper pet education.

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    Cheers Dusty. Didn't mean to sound inflammatory, I meant nothing personal by the selfish thing.

    Kelly, I wasn't trying to imply that everyone should get rid of their pets immediately. I just meant a general and smooth phasing out of the act of owing a pet.

    Step 1)Stop buying puppies or any young animal. If puppy mills or pet stores can' turn profit, they will have to close down.

    Step 2)Only buy animals from shelters and pounds. This would knock out most of the homeless population and prevent needless deaths.

    Step 3)Once shelters are virtually cleared out, just sit back and enjoy the rest of your pet's lives with each other. But once they die, hopefully of natural causes, then don't replace them.

    And I agree with you Kelly on the spay/neuter thing. I actually didn't think about adding that in to my idea. So thanks for that.

    But I have made my point and I'm really not interested in dragging out a discussion further than it needs to go. I'm cool with people having different opinions than I so I will stop making huge posts now .

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    Dogs of the same breed are all inbred. I didn't watch the video, but it's terrible (I know what kind of stuff you're explaining) I think everything is getting so goddamn commercial I didn't know pets where very bad, I didn't want them to be... Especially dogs.

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    BuckWeisel, Thanks for reiterating things I wrote and making your point of view more clear.
    #2 You don't buy from most shelters I think their free??
    # 3 of your very small post, I don't think this is the answer in my life time anyways, there are always more animals who need a home and hopefully I can adopt more from the shelters.

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    Buckwiesel I do see where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree that animal ownership nowadays is difficult to really justify, however I think it goes beyond just simply "good memories." Especially with dogs. Dogs have been part of human society, as far as we can tell, since there's even been a society. They certainly pre-date any written methods of recording information. I think to a certain extent we've co-evolved, perhaps them more than us, but I do think we've developed a place in our psyche for animal companionship. I think the break down of those relationships and the respect born of those relationships and the further disrespect or even disgust for the natural world in general is yet another sign that human society is, on some level, self destructing. We've promoted a world view that declares everything is there to use as we wish, forgetting ancient traditions of respect which allowed for sustainability, and mitigated abuse. We have undreamed of knowledge these days, but almost no wisdom. Not to say that animal abuse is something that's new or never happened even in times where an animal was your livelihood. However these days all the consequences and repercussions have been removed, and legal systems are really reluctant to create any significant punishments for the abuse of animals. It gets even worse when that animal is part of an industry. You end up with people whose livelihood hinges around the living things being treated as a commodity. Like any business, their goal is to make money, and the most obvious way to do that is by doing everything as cheaply as they can get away with. I think this concept is killing us in a lot of ways actually, but that it's a component in the worsening fates of the animals upon who's backs our civilizations were literally built. So animals, some with the intelligence of a 3 year old human child are subject to conditions and treatment that can only be justified by imagining them as inanimate things.

    I own a retired racing greyhound, and to be honest I think every dog I have from now own is probably going to be a racing rescue. They're truly amazing animals. Primal and prehistoric on one hand, and hilarious love bugs on the other. I don't think that coursing, or racing greyhounds is intrinsically bad, in fact the dogs love to run and chase things. The problem enters when money gets involved, and once again the animal becomes a business asset. As soon as they stop performing well, usually around 2 or 3 years old they're "retired." Prior to the adoption movement an estimated 20,000 greyhounds a year were "euthanized" which, once again to cut costs often involved simply bashing the dogs in the head or shooting them and dumping them in fields.

    in 2002 the remains of approximately 3,000 greyhounds from Florida racetracks were discovered on the Alabama property of a former racetrack security guard who had been “retiring” unwanted greyhounds with a .22 rifle for more than 40 years.(3)

    The Alabama greyhound massacre made it more obvious than ever that racing greyhounds are treated as “running machines,” produced in quantities that require the disposal of surplus dogs and dogs who are injured, old, or deemed too slow or no longer profitable.
    Sickness and injuries—including broken legs, heatstroke, and heart attacks—claim the lives of many dogs before they are ever “retired.” Others—such as Randad, a dog in Alabama—are victims of track machinery. Randad was electrocuted when he jumped onto the lure rail and became entangled on the mechanical lure.(4) Another dog, Tune Me In, suffered for 30 minutes before being euthanized after he was badly cut by a mechanical lure at a Florida track.(5) During a three-year span, almost 500 greyhounds were injured while racing on Massachusetts tracks.(6) One Iowa track’s general manager defended greyhound casualties at his track by claiming that “top-notch dogs run harder and are more injury-prone.”(7)

    Other dogs die during transport from one racetrack to another.
    The same problems exist in the horse racing world. In fact another aspect of the industry recently came to my attention. "Nurse Mare Farms."
    Nurse Mare Farms keep their mares pregant for the colostrum-Rich mothers milk for use on foals other than their own. The unwanted babies are byproducts deprived of their much need first taste of colostrum rich mother milk, and are usually immediately killed and discarded "or otherwise" disposed of.

    The colostrum-rich first milk of the mother is reserved for the "better," more important foals the industry deems "more worthy" of attention. The colostrum is "banked" or the mares are used as surrogate mothers for the "privlidged foals" whos mothers cant be with them because they are being bred back right away or need to continue on in her career and not have to be burdned with the raising of a baby.
    This pic is of my greyhound, Dobby. Something a little more cheerful.

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    The local Petco in our town has moved away from mills and has been featuring cats/dogs from the local humane society. So - not all chain pet stores are bad.
    Yeah, the pet store where I got my cat (9 years ago, and counting) had animals from the shelter. The all had their names age and background history beside the price tag. The only reason they were more expensive was that they were all already neutered/spayed and had their shots. Unfortunately, they closed down a couple of years later (I hope they were just moving).

    As far as the pets v.s. no pets debate, I can't discount the real benefits and positive aspects of having animals around just because there are morons out there. You can say that about pets, food, sex, booze... there's always people who are irresponsible and inconsiderate and ruining it all for the rest of us (and Earth). That said, there really needs to be more accountability and severe punishment for animal cruelty.

    Another issue that drives me crazy is people who de-claw their cats. I've met so many decent, smart people who still had no idea how painful and cruel it is to the cat. Thankfully, it has been banned in some countries but only partially in North America. If you can't deal with a few claw marks do NOT get a cat. Besides, cats don't just compulsively destroy all your furniture if they are healthy and entertained properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthogua View Post
    Buckwiesel I do see where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree that animal ownership nowadays is difficult to really justify, however I think it goes beyond just simply "good memories." Especially with dogs. Dogs have been part of human society, as far as we can tell, since there's even been a society. They certainly pre-date any written methods of recording information. I think to a certain extent we've co-evolved, perhaps them more than us, but I do think we've developed a place in our psyche for animal companionship. I think the break down of those relationships and the respect born of those relationships and the further disrespect or even disgust for the natural world in general is yet another sign that human society is, on some level, self destructing. We've promoted a world view that declares everything is there to use as we wish, forgetting ancient traditions of respect which allowed for sustainability, and mitigated abuse. We have undreamed of knowledge these days, but almost no wisdom.
    I certainly agree with most points you brought up. Especially the second half of your post. But the above got me thinking again. I don't mean to hijack the thread and make it about the sociology of owning pets, so again, I apologize.

    I'm a firm believer that in the realm of nature vs nurture, most of human behavior comes from the latter. Owning a pet, from my point of view, is just another behavior that people are taught by society. No different from a number of other traditions or values. If people can learn to domesticate animals and it becomes integrated into the very fabric of the human psyche, then so could not having pets. Not having pets seems unnatural because we live in a world of pets. If there were no pets, I am sure having pets would be surreal too.

    I don't think having a pet develops a healthy relationship with nature. If that wasn't part of your point, please forgive me for inferring. If having a pet caused people to respect nature, then obviously this problem would be a lot smaller. It's whatever they are taught while they own a pet that teaches them something. A kid is given a puppy and then they are taught how to treat it. If you give a puppy to a kid, and don't give the kid any instruction, the puppy will suffer alright. It takes the responsibility of a parent to teach a child to respect nature.

    And to go a bit further, I think having a pet is considerably more unnatural than not owning one. It asserts man's dominion over the animal kingdom instead of participation. No animal on earth "owns" other animals, except humans. We interfered with nature by selectively breeding these species, we don't, can't and shouldn't let them be a true part of the natural world because that would be even more of a negative impact on Earth.

    Plus I think humans are what we are. We, ourselves, aren't as close to nature as we used to be, and that's fine. It's natural for us to be this way because evolution seen fit to equip us with intelligence. It's not our destiny as species to live like an animal. That doesn't mean we have an excuse to destroy that of which we are slowly evolving from though.

    On a completely unrelated note, I think ancient humans were literally insane. There is little to be proud of or that we should keep in-touch with. I am always amazed at this phenomenon of romanticizing our ancestors. We are incredibly proud of ourselves and I will be surprised to ever see a piece of media that doesn't reflect that. Watch any historical documentary, especially ones about Egypt. Humanity's past is anything but rose-tinted.

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