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    Fair or not

    So today My art teacher got mad at me(even told me that he was going to lower my art grade to a F)

    Because I was sitting around practicing anatomy when I should have been working on my printmaking piece.

    now this is the thing, after getting yelled at I once again went to search for the artbook with the printmaking pic that I was doing, only to find out that he left it at his house.

    So Bascially I'm getting moving from a A to a F because he left the book at his house.

    I want to go to the administration about it but they wont take my word for it, they'll believe him more.

    Not only that but he said he wont recommend me for Art cxc,(thing needed to get my art grade for college,dunno what its called in america)

    Not to mention him calling anatomy practice a waste of time, what should I have been doing nothing for the whole day?

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    I feel like there are missing pieces to this story to make yourself sound innocent, to be honest.

    I highly doubt you'd go from an A to and F based on one assignment.
    Also, I don't see how the teacher forgetting a book that you were going to use is his fault. Either you should have chosen a piece from a book you had dependable access to or you should start looking at libraries if you just absolutely need this specific book.

    "Because you were sitting around practicing anatomy" isn't an excuse for the assignment at hand from my point of view, so I can see why you got "yelled at". Regardless of how well it applies to your overall art career...if that wasn't the assignment then you were "wasting time". And if you have no time to finish it or secure this book you need that probably means you procrastinated heavily.

    Like I said, I feel like pieces are missing...but this is the picture you are painting for me here. Go to the administration if you truly feel wronged, but definitely look at your own actions and truly analyze how "right" you are before accusing the teacher of things.

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    Because I was sitting around practicing anatomy when I should have been working on my printmaking piece.
    It's one thing if you were unable to work on your assignment, but willfully not doing what you're supposed to in class is putting you at fault, not your teacher.

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    Your sketch book says your 15 so that basically sums things up. Listen to your teach, stop dicking around in class.

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    You can always get your parents involved.

    Or, you could finish that printmaking thingy, and see if it makes your teacher happy.

    Then, move on.

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    This calls for some Linkin Park.

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    Great advice above. o_o Yes, I think it's fair for the teacher to warn you like that.

    I'm going on a slight tangent I think, but... You should be very careful if you're trying to further yourself for art schooling. Take habits like that with you, and you will be wasting a lot more time, missing out on a lot of potentially invaluable lessons because you want to do things your way in class.

    I'm saying this as someone who's had her first taste of art university. It's NOT easy, and each lesson can take up many hours during the week. I procrastinated with other things I wanted to do, and I have paid a great deal already. You wouldn't want to do that, it feels terrible. If you have some real free time during the day, outside of class, you should really try and use THAT time for your anatomy studies.

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    He had every right to reprimand you for not working on a project while in class. You have plenty of time to spend practicing anatomy on your own time.

    You're not going to fail a class because of one assignment. And if you were working from a book, you should have made copies or something of the pages you needed so that even without the book you could keep working.

    This is all about responsibility and planning your time, and your story doesn't suggest that you've learned much about them yet. (That's okay, you're only 15.) College is much harder, though, so do try to take the lesson now. If you fail one project, that's a learning experience. If you keep these bad habits and keep failing classes, who will you have to blame but yourself?

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    I probably should of paid my bills, its ok though I was studying anatomy.






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    re

    Sukizan

    From the instructor's shoes he probably feels awkward because if you don’t do his assignments how can he properly do his job and grade you? He’s probably lashing back at you because he feels insulted. You come to his class for lessons…yet you want to be the one to call the shots? Doing his assignment now might be a little too late…grade suicide.

    //incoming rant…sorry//

    I was in similar situation minus the tar and feathering. I had a drawing lab teacher who I begged to teach me anatomy and refused...even when I did his assignments. After some persistence, my teacher snapped at me why I wanted to learn anatomy. I didn't have anybody else to turn too. I told him I probably couldn't get a job drawing stick figures. He laughed and finally gave in and let draw nudes studies all drawing lab.

    Even though I was a bit more diplomatic, there was still some tension in the start. I recall taking the elevator down with my teacher after class and I would thank him. I reached my floor and I was about to exit. My teacher would mutter “asshole.” I thought it was just me hearing things. Over the course of a few days he would say it louder and louder to the point people outside the elevator would turn heads.

    I felt awful, guilty, and angry too. I almost wanted to call him out on it. But you know what? He’s right. I was being a bit of an asshole. Every time I would do my thing, sometimes other students in class would be curious and I would indirectly disrupt his class for a few seconds. Every time I did an anatomy study, it was basically saying to him. “Your assignments aren’t good enough for me.” At that point asking for any anatomy tips from him was like pulling teeth. I thought everything would work out because I asked his permission and we were on good terms many classes ago. I felt like I made a mistake.

    Slowly I had to regain his trust and respect. I worked harder on my studies. I came in a little before class to help him set up or stayed while to clean up. It was my way of saying thanks for his time on helping me on my anatomy, even though he didn’t have to. Things got worse before they got better, I showed I was serious about learning. All this talk of anatomy rekindled my teacher passion for drawing and he started to warm up to me a whole lot more. I found out he was a bit insecure because he hasn’t touched his anatomy studies for a long time. It was cool though, we learned together. It made it more fun.

    So anyways Sukizan... If you did the teacher’s assignment beforehand you might have had room for negotiation to do your anatomy studies in class. You are going in the right direction just maybe with a bad approach. By all means you do have the responsibility to take control of your education and filter out what isn’t working…just be careful not to be rude about it. Teachers have feelings too.

    Unfortunately at this point with your teacher it is just damage control now. Don’t piss him off anymore…and there is an angry mob on the forums waiting for you.

    Last edited by Pigeonkill; October 30th, 2009 at 04:27 PM.
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    Nice try, but drawing dicks in the margins of your textbooks doesn't count as "practicing anatomy."

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    er no, I'm not trying to sound innocent he is failing me because of that.
    not to mention that libery's in my part of the country where i live don't have those books, tho I didn't expect him to leave the book then lower my grade because I couldn't do my work?

    @Noah Bradley, I wasn't able to work on it, he left the book.

    Tho that's not the worst part, after that he found some other print making for me to do, told me it was easy and that if i couldn't do it I should give up(1st time print making)

    Tho, after finishing the drawing and getting ready to cut it out O: and tone and stuff, people started asking me why I chose something so hard(he had me do a shoe,while other people got round balls) And I said it was easy because my teacher told me so.

    tho after actually looking at what you need to do for print making I my self found it hard, due to me not being able to cut a those tiny little details out properly with a knife and then toning those little parts.

    Tho all through setting up the equipment and stuff not once did he help me, I had to go around and ask my other classmates for help, even after asking him.

    Its not like I wont do printmaking,even tho I hate it, but Eh.

    tho the 1st pic I actually finished it, then he told me I needed to make it bigger, like my whole sketchpad paper big,hence why I needed the book again.

    @Pigeonkill, I have no problem doing print making and stuff, tho this teacher just doesn't seem want to focus on what we need to learn.

    No one in the class is going to take print making as their exam, so why not focus on improving our shading, or some other area were we're weak at.

    I dunno, maybe its because he's moving so slow, my other teacher had us doing stick figures to improve our anatomy,etc.

    not stick figures stick figures xD but like stuff you find in the loomis art book. Maybe I just need to adjust to his way of teaching.



    And about the anatomy practice, its not like I did that to push his work off, I just thought practicing something would be better than sitting around and not doing anything at all.

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    Teachers are not always right... and students are not always stupid and misbehaving.

    I realize there is a mystical "teachers can do no wrong" feeling when it comes to education, but there are many many many many cases of them stepping out of line (I have had a few too, who lowered my grade for their mistakes, such as actually losing my work after I had turned it in).

    Teachers are human too. There can be good and bad.

    This is the same attitude that allowed priests to molest kids for so long unquestioned... bleh. Just because they are in a position of authority or are older, doesn't mean they are incapable of acting in wrong ways.

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    It's cool. I hate print making, too.

    And when I was in 10th grade, I didn't do any of the assignments in art class. I failed Art 10 twice (the same course, two semesters). So I had to do art 10 and 20 in grade 11. And I had less credits than I could've.

    What if you're working as an illustrator in ten years, and whoever you're working for gives you an assignment you don't like? Are you going to do whatever you want, instead, and then come post on conceptart because your boss was yelling at you?

    I don't think so.





    I was, however, sent to the office for making fun of my art teacher for playing Gears of War. That was stupid. :/

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    He threatened you with an F?

    You're lucky. I would have tossed your ass out my fifth floor class window to see if you could fly...not to sound too hard on you or anything...

    (The Dean discovered that 11.7% of my students could fly. I taught at a very freaky school, apparently...)

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    Part of growing up is learning to deal with difficult people that have authority over you.

    This is only the beginning.

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    You need that teacher for a recommendation for Art cxc. That is where you shot yourself in the foot.

    tbh, I spend most of my time in school doing studies as well.
    But that's because my grades are fine and I don't depend on my teachers for anything, and I'm polite about it. If they ask me, I'll gladly explain my priorities, and most of them understand.
    Once they know that I'm not doing this as a "FUCK you-I'm-an-angsty-teen" attitude, then they just leave me be.

    Sure, I won't get that A, but I didn't care about it in the first place.

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    Dude, no offense, but you're really presenting yourself as a classic sophomoric fifteen-year-old. You're saying all these things that don't make any sense, yet they still make sense to you... Your teacher is not conspiring against you. He's got enough other students and concerns that he couldn't be bothered with your whining. He just wants you to stop complaining, do some work, and God forbid learn something.

    I've done a couple years of printmaking - dry point, etching, aquatint, color etching, etc. I'm no master but I do know you don't need any one particular book to make a print. Why is that book so important? What's in it? A picture you wanted to copy? Or trace from? You don't need to trace to make a print, and you don't need a book for an image, when you've got internet access. Find an image off the net! If you need the book just for instruction, then why not just ask the teacher? Or a classmate - they all seem to know how to do it.

    As for getting the shoe image. You act like your teacher is tricking you, when your classmates just chose a ball? Guess what, a shoe's not much harder, and if you ever want to be an artist, you'd better learn how to draw shoes, and feet, and hands. Otherwise forums like this will make so much fun of you. Who's that comics artist who always hides hands and feet, often cropping them out of the frame? The guy with the pouches? Oh, yeah, and he traces other artists a lot too. Kid you do not want to grow up to be this guy.

    Do your assignments to the best of your ability, and complete them on time. Put time and care into them. Just because you chose a shoe, doesn't mean you have to make it photorealistic. Just do the best you can and try. And, for the love of God! Don't let this one teacher, who very well may be a prick, keep you from loving printmaking!!!! There are so many incredible printmakers in history! Rembrandt, Durer, Otto Dix, Mucha... Don't let one man ruin it for you. That's the most important lesson to remember as a young student.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigeonkill View Post
    My teacher would mutter “asshole.” I thought it was just me hearing things. Over the course of a few days he would say it louder and louder to the point people outside the elevator would turn heads.
    I found out he was a bit insecure because he hasn’t touched his anatomy studies for a long time. It was cool though, we learned together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae
    You're lucky. I would have tossed your ass out my fifth floor class window to see if you could fly...
    Sorry, sorry, back up. Just so's I have it straight in my head. Are these nuggets of wisdom meant to make us sympathetic to the plight of art teachers?

    ...which is only my opinion.
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    Ilaekae's posts always mix humor with truth. One of my professors went to Columbia as a student. He had an art professor who tore students' works from the wall and stomped on them, sometimes even throwing them out the window, whenever the work didn't show the lesson he wanted learned. It's a bit theatrical really, and could get a professor in trouble these days, especially if not tenured, but there's a point to it. This professor didn't get off on hurting or upsetting people. He was emphasizing the importance of art - it has to be important to you, or you're not worthy of pursuing it, and you have to know the fundamentals. He did all the ranting and raving to make it clear what these fundamentals are. My professor was glad for the experience he'd had. I probably wouldn't be ready for it as a teen, but now I'd welcome the opportunity.

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    After reading this again, I think you also need to learn a little more about flexibility. Whenever you're doing an art project-- doesn't matter what media or type of project-- there will always be SOMETHING that happens that you didn't expect. You forget supplies, or your cat knocks the paint water all over your piece, your computer crashes the night you need to finish a project... there's a million things that could go wrong. You have to be able to adapt.

    Last year at a competition I brought all my watercolors... and then realized I forgot my palette. So I used the metal lid of my colored pencil box and borrowed a cup for water. I've used the back of several drawing pads taped together as a drawing board because I didn't have my own. Sometimes you just have to make do.

    Point being, while it was worthy for you to try and do something if you couldn't do the project... you don't seem to have made an effort to find a workaround for the project first. You needed the book? Why? Just to copy an image? Go find a reference elsewhere. As mentioned, when you have internet access there's really no excuse for not finding reference.

    Printmaking especially has a lot of steps that can all go wrong. You've sometimes got to find a way to fix things so that the project turns out ok, even if you don't have everything to hand.

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    Viridis I’m not sure. I was bummed out during the time when it happened and I can laugh about it now. If I was pitched out of window, I probably wouldn’t be happy about it…haha. Maybe it was his way to drive students out, but the big picture is if I lost my cool or didn't have self control. I wouldn't have received my extra anatomy lessons. Does that excuse the teacher's lack of professionalism, not at all. I feel it's better to make friends than enemies.

    TASmith gave some good advice. Maybe next time instead of a shoe you could have created a foot or a hand as your image in the printmaking. Adapt what you like into the assignment too, compromise.

    It is up to you Sukizan what you think is best. In the class if you don’t do your projects you get an “F,” if you do the same with your clients you get fired.

    Last edited by Pigeonkill; November 16th, 2009 at 04:14 PM.
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    Woaaa, throwing papers out of the window? Yelling at students??

    When did it become "ok" again to treat students like that? If any of my teachers so much as spoke to me in a way I thought was disrespectful, i would be at the deans office in a heartbeat (maybe even during class, I would just walk out!) and give him a lecture on expectations for teachers behaviour (actually, I would probably lecture the teacher first if it was a minor issue, and then go to the dean if they didn't get their act together). I have actually done this a few times to teachers who stepped out of line (and the higher management sides with me).

    Had a class for typing and I wouldn't do the homework during the time the teacher had set aside for us to work. It was homework and simple, I felt it was up to me to decide when I wanted to do it as long as she had it by the due date. She started to get very angry at me and eventually it became too much (she started to threaten my grade, docking points beyond the grading of the assignment or class point distribution). So, I went to the dean and told him to handle the sittuation with the teacher. He agreed with me and had a talk with the teacher, my problems ended and the rest of the term was fine (I last minuted the homework at home when I felt like doing it).

    Just because you are there to learn doesn't mean you need to surrender self respect and the right to be treated like a human being. Maybe I am just sensitive about these things, but if I am giving the teacher a certain level of respect, I expect at least the same. I don't tolerate yelling or any other non-professional behavior. You start yelling or something as a manager in the real world, well, you get fired.

    I look at school like a business. There is no need to bring drama into the mix. If I don't do the work, mark down whatever grade you feel is correct and move on (if i disagree with the grade, I will say so and if it is a big difference and the teacher is unmovable, we take it to the dean and find mediation to re-grade the work *did this a few times also*). It's business, nothing personal, there is always someone in a higher position you can go to if you are having personality issues with someone directly over you.

    Actually, that is what they teach you that you SHOULD do if you are in the working world and you have an issue with your manager.

    First, take it to the manager. Try to talk to them about it. Always stay calm and act professionally.

    Second, if the problem is not resolved. Take it to the next level (whoever is over the manager or the human resources department. Also acceptable to take it to a higher level when the issue is something you can't speak to the manager about, but that is for more extreme issues of crossing the line, such as physical contact).

    Note: it is important to keep track of everythng and the steps you are taking to try and resolve the issue

    3rd. If the 2nd level does not correct the issue or ignores it and it continues, move up again. Show them what you have tried so far and the non-action by your manager and the level above them (both of them will get in trouble for not resolving the issue btw, it is their job). Normally you don't need to go higher than this, because this 3rd level is pretty objective and removed from the other 2 people (and they are normally in "conflict solving mode" where they only want to get the problem over with in a way that makes both parties happy).

    If no one does anything still. Well, there are higher levels you can go to (school boards, councils, founder of the school if it is a different structure). If the behaviour of the teacher is unacceptable, someone will eventually agree and take care of it.

    No one needs to put up with any type of abuse. No matter how small your job is or how little pay you get and how many hours they give you... you are never so low that it allows people to treat you in unprofessional ways. As long as you act in acceptable ways, you are always right and they are always wrong when they step outside of "ok behaviour".

    Being a student is the same. No where do you sign away your rights to be treated with respect. A lot of people will allow the abuse to continue because they simply don't realize that they have the right to say something. Students won't take complaints to the higher levels because they feel they are "just students" and the teachers are allowed to do whatever they like.... this is very very very wrong (and it translates into the working world too).

    I guess some people are just used to being walked over... and have so little self respect that they feel the teachers behaviour is justified. *shrug*

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    Ivory_Oasis- While I understand you're point completely, I think given previous examples of your dealings with educators,you show a complete lack of respect for academics, especially those teaching you. Why even matriculate? You seem completely self-ensured about all your judgements, why put a teacher through hell? Just do it on your own. In my entire collegiate career, I never once had an issue with a professor. I've had some difficult ones, but it was never anything that I couldn't work through.

    Maybe it's just because I live in Texas and we're a bit old school, but, had I gone to make a complaint against a professor because I WOULDN'T do the work he/she allotted me in the time he/she designated and was, consequently, being treated rudely, I would have been laughed out of the office.

    Being a prick because you can doesn't translate into showing self-respect, it comes off as a complete lack of respect for your educator and all your peers.

    Once you undermine an educator's ability to steer his/her class, the lesson has ended.

    Last edited by {CKL}; October 31st, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
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    Normally school has been more of just something I had to do... I just move faster than other students and wanted to be left alone. It's not that I have no respect for teachers (I always give them respect and act well) it's just they weren't teaching me anything.

    I have had countless run-ins with teachers who tried to "force" me to take notes. I refuse to, I don't learn as much when I take them...I just need to hear them say it in lecture, and read the chapter once, then I am ok. (I have only needed to take notes in 1 class my entire college career, just because the teacher didn't use a book and would give all information through lecture). Was I causing trouble by not needing / not wanting to take notes? or were the teachers digging for trouble by telling me how I "should" learn?

    These things aren't out of lack of respect.. even though the teacher is telling me to do one thing, I am doing another (because I am only interested in getting the grade I want...I realize the teachers are trying to help, but their attention is misplaced).

    That pretty much is the reason for most my conflicts with teachers. It's not my fault that I don't need the same things as other students, trying to stuff me into the pre-decided role that the average student needs is like trying to fit a square peg through a circle opening. The more the teachers try to work me through that hole, the more conflict arises.

    So, it has been "give me the assignment, give me the book, tell me when the tests are...and leave me to do it". Then everyone is happy and I do the work, the teachers give the grades, and everyone treats eachother with respect. Some teachers get it, and we get along great. Other teachers feel it is their duty to "turn me into a student" ... and... well...friction happens then heh.

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    i'd like to see ivory_oasis take a class by Ilaekae.

    also, Miss Trunchbull knew how to get shit done.



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    Ivory, the point of the teacher wasn't just teaching art, but also that, as a student what you learn is more important than the work you do, AND more importantly, it was about teaching humility.

    As a teacher myself, I don't use that tactic. I could never stomach the tyrannical facade. However, despite, or because of my general friendlyness, many of my students think they can walk all over me. It's unfortunate so many people consider kindness a sign of weakness. Take one of my classes for example. I tell these kids every lesson that, you know, in 5 lessons we're going to have a test on this unit. Then 4 lessons. Then 3. It gets to 1 lesson away, and these kids start complaining, "What! we're not ready! Give us another day!" I tell the kids, if you behave and listen today, I'll give you an extra day. I know it's pointless because the one's who'll prepare are already prepared, and the ones who won't, won't use the extra day. But the kids don't even behave. The same ones who never listen keep talking regardless!

    So I told them, too bad, test is next lesson. Then I got sick over the weekend, my flu turns into some nasty infection and I'm out of class for two weeks. That's two weeks these kids have to prepare, since Slovakia doesn't use substitute teachers. The first thing I'm gonna do when I get back is give them that test and I know they're going to scream and shout about not being ready.

    It's funny, the best students never say anything. Neither do the worst students. They just accept it and take the test. It's always the C students who have to scream and shout about fairness.

    Here's another lesson on fairness. Here in Slovakia they don't celebrate Halloween the commercial way we do in the States. They celebrate it old world style. Every family goes to the cemetery and places candles on graves. The first place we went to was the children's section - a long row of little plots, each with it's own cross. It's about the saddest thing you'll ever see. You're worried about one unfair teacher? LIFE AIN'T FAIR.

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    You know, the education system in general really is one big joke, and it only seems to be getting worse.

    When I was in school, I was put into the "gifted student" program in 2nd grade. Which immediately prompted most of my fellow students to taunt and torment me for years--"Oooh, look at you, Miss Gifted, think you're so much better than all of us" and other such things--even though I usually just kept to myself, did my work, and never talked about "being in Gifted". And I discovered that the general education being provided though school was trite, dull, and boring--I learned quickly and zipped through things and spent the majority of my time in school sitting in the back of the class, bored out of my mind because there was nothing more substantial and challenging.

    For the most part, schools seem to cater to the lower-end majority with no real consideration for people of greater or lesser intelligence. Sure, there's the GS programs and the special education programs, but teachers (oftentimes so overwhelmed by overcrowded classrooms and rowdy students) have no means to "customize" to individual students. If someone is struggling, they just have to muddle along with no real help, if someone is zooming through the lessons and sitting around bored the rest of the time, they have nothing to challenge them. Kids just sort of go through, get stamped into a cookiecutter mold, and released into the world.

    For example--high school is supposed to prepare you for college, or so they say. I found that, heading into college, I had had no instruction on how to write "proper" college papers, with citation and all that--the english professor I had was appalled when I said that. In high school, teachers basically spoon-fed everyone the information they needed for tests, and then made tests that were true/false or multiple choice, and then played rediculous review games the day before the test. There was never that feeling of "ok-here's-the-info-you're-on-your-own." Critical thought was never on the lesson plans (thankfully, developing critical thinking skills was a staple of the GS program, but that didn't benefit everyone who wasn't in GS--a grand total of about four or five students in each grade made it to the GS program) And tests or papers where you had to write out a thought-out answer and defend it were nonexistant.

    And I won't even get into the joke that was the high school "advanced studio art" classes....

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    When I was a student teacher I was told I had to incorporate writing into a lesson plan. I figured, okay. I'll show each student a different artwork. They'll each write a description of the work, at least a page, and then swap discriptions. Without seeing the original, they can try to recreate the works based on the description. Neat idea?

    My teaching supervisor said it was too challenging for highschool students, because they were "special needs". Meaning, two or three kids who were apathetic toward learning and thus mislabeled. Needless to say student teaching was a hellish experience for me.

    Last edited by TASmith; October 31st, 2009 at 03:34 PM.
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