Sketchbook: Lulie's theory-laden Sketchbook - Page 2
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  1. #31
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    The construction I used was a sort of rough lazy Reilly method. I thought I could get away with eyeing more of it. Apparently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    My general impression is that you are still averaging faces.
    Ohhh, so that's what I'm doing wrong! I noticed that mistake for the tone paper portrait in the previous post, but didn't realise that's a general thing I do. Makes so much sense. I will definitely try the caricature idea, thank you.

    I actually have some tabs open about how to do caricatures -- really neat set of tutorials by MAD Magazine artist: How to Draw Caricatures by Tom Richmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    I don't know how to solve the accuracy problem myself. I know some cheats, like these. You could try tracing construction lines over the photo and making relative measurements and then drawing on the side from that.
    Cool thread, thanks. Good ideas.

    I'll try to set some time aside to learn planes and Asaro head stuff properly.

    Thanks for the help! It's been really useful as always.

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  2. #32
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    Nice SB! You do well to do all those good studys. Give a look at the planes of the face. It will increase your understandment of the shapes when you do your portraits and studies.

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  3. #33
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    iven is offline Animator/ Eco-artist/ Caricaturist Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
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    Wow it all look so planed, want to do more accurate studies like you do.
    But I just don't,......I am drawing as I go some how,...nice start love it.

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    *critique* advice* help full links, is appreciated*



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  4. #34
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    Matthias - Thanks! I should be doing more application though. I'll put planes of the face higher on my todo list.

    iven - Planning is fun. Usually I get stuck and the thing I get stuck with is the thing I know I should be working on.


    On the caricature / averaging features front, I got that Mad Art of Caricature book (which rules), and went through it:

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    I should do less written note-taking and more drawing/exercises.


    STUDIES DUMP

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    Sketches mostly while I was at the Conceptart.org Workshop London 2013. (There was also proper life drawing there, which I did some of, but my life drawing sucks and I don't learn much from it, so will only post if someone wants to see.)

    At the workshop, Marc Taro Holmes said the anime influence is noticeable (in the toned paper sketches I posted here on the previous page). Can anyone tell me what about them looks like anime? Eyes too big? Too much focus on lines instead of shadow? (But then comic has that too?) Something about the structure of the head?


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    Bottom right was while waiting at a bus stop. Trying to understand how the rib cage and hips can be tilted and what happens to the back when you lean forward. Still don't really get this, so I'll do some applied skeleton studies later.


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    Following this thread (which everyone should read), I tried the technique of drawing from memory/imagination, then do studies, then from memory again.

    I soon realised that to understand anatomy, I need to study it properly and not just do photo studies. So, currently taking a detour to study anatomy in a more comprehensive way. I'll revisit arms once I have the torso down better.


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    The interesting thing about anatomy is that everything connects to everything else. Whenever I tried to draw a torso, I found I couldn't really do it because I don't understand the pelvis well enough. So now I'm doing pelvis studies.

    Arm anatomy is much easier to grasp now I understand how muscles work more in general, and what sort of shapes and mechanisms to expect (from studying torsos).

    The best way of learning anatomy seems to be to dot around and revisit stuff. Learning about one body part puts the other parts in a new light.


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    Started practicing gesture in order to work on my line economy, not petting lines/chicken scratching. Advice comes from my art buddy, BoxOfSecrets, whom I met at at the CA London workshop.

    There's a lot of hate for Posemaniacs on this site, but I think it's a great tool for gesture. It only sucks if you're using it as reference for longer poses and need accurate anatomy/muscles.


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    SP study from mirror, with a bit of help from taking reference pics at the end to compare more easily and fix stuff. One of the eyes is too high. :/

    In this study, my main discovery is that the face is much smaller on the head than I thought. I was doing feature creep a lot. There's loads of structure after the eyes/at the side of the head that I wasn't thinking about.

    Last edited by Lulie; August 1st, 2013 at 09:19 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulie View Post
    I should do less written note-taking and more drawing/exercises.
    Do more of both. Note taking seems a good way to register what you are thinking when you are working. Then you can go back to it and find mistakes in your thinking as well as in your drawing.

    At the workshop, Marc Taro Holmes said the anime influence is noticeable (in the toned paper sketches I posted here on the previous page). Can anyone tell me what about them looks like anime? Eyes too big? Too much focus on lines instead of shadow? (But then comic has that too?) Something about the structure of the head?
    I don't think you should worry about this much. Isn't starting with anime common enough? Isn't it a generic enough style?

    Perhaps the lines and how soft and pretty you made the portrait? I don't think eyes are too big and sparkly or anything obvious like that.

    I know you started with anime so I can't give an unbiased opinion.

    I was compared with Bilal and this bothered me because it was an individual's style.

    Following this thread (which everyone should read), I tried the technique of drawing from memory/imagination, then do studies, then from memory again.
    This is a great idea. I find I'm too embarassed to draw purely from imagination because my level of knowledge of anything that not a face is so low. But embarassanent is stupid so I'm working on getting rid of it.

    The best way of learning anatomy seems to be to dot around and revisit stuff. Learning about one body part puts the other parts in a new light.
    Good idea. If's not really possible to master one part and move on. The head is farly isolated but when I move down to the neck trouble is apparent. There's no neck without shoulders.

    Started practicing gesture in order to work on my line economy, not petting lines/chicken scratching.
    I thought the purpose was to capture pose, movement, to see the whole figure before you get into detail.

    I have a theory that petting habits come from people not understanding what artists do when they are sketching and trying to imitate it. Children don't pet.

    I've allowed myself back into petting more because I wanted to be in the state of mind when I was younger and creating from imagination.

    Blind contour helps with lines but it ruins everything else.

    There's a lot of hate for Posemaniacs on this site, but I think it's a great tool for gesture. It only sucks if you're using it as reference for longer poses and need accurate anatomy/muscles.
    I think if the pose is not realistic that might harm your understanding of what poses are possible for humans.

    SP study from mirror, with a bit of help from taking reference pics at the end to compare more easily and fix stuff. One of the eyes is too high. :/
    You made yourself look slightly younger, like you were still in your teens, perhaps because rendering is so soft. But it looks undoubtly like you and that's good.

    In this study, my main discovery is that the face is much smaller on the head than I thought. I was doing feature creep a lot. There's loads of structure after the eyes/at the side of the head that I wasn't thinking about.
    This is interesting. Some women's features do seem to naturally creep out more (women with big far apart eyes).

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  6. #36
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    Epic time between updates, I hope you were drawing all that time.

    I don't really get into the academic side of what I draw, I just draw what I see and I draw from my head, eventually it works itself out. I only just figured out that in order to get better faster, I need to be drawing constantly non stop

    This makes it hard to give crits though, since I kind of just taught myself.

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  7. #37
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    @Leonor -

    Agreed on doing both, and your reasoning. Have been doing that now -- still trying to get a sense of this face (WIP):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    I don't think you should worry about [drawing in anime] much. Isn't starting with anime common enough? Isn't it a generic enough style?
    I'm not worried, it's just that I thought I had learnt enough that I've already replaced my anime-symbols, and apparently I haven't. I want more realism, not style. Hence curious what style elements are most obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    This is a great idea. I find I'm too embarassed to draw purely from imagination because my level of knowledge of anything that not a face is so low. But embarassanent is stupid so I'm working on getting rid of it.
    One strategy for overcoming embarrassment is to take it in humour. "Haha, this is so bad. My giraffe looks like a camel. *adds a hump and a funny expression*" That helps with killing frustration, anyway -- for embarrassment you could just not show anyone and do it on scrap paper, or feel the embarrassment and do it anyway. It's good to get over embarrassment but it's better to get over low drawing skill.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    I thought the purpose [of gesture drawing] was to capture pose, movement, to see the whole figure before you get into detail.
    That's one thing you can use it for, sure. But I found it was super helpful for line quality and economy. Seeing the whole figure before you go into detail is connected to this -- big strokes covering big areas instead of little petted lines focusing on one part at a time.

    Gestures seem ideal for practicing line quality/economy, because
    a) you have to go fast -- superfluous lines slow you down, hesitant petting is too slow,
    b) they can be small/throw-away drawings that you don't care about so can suck (which encourages you to be bolder), and
    c) one of the ideas in gesture drawing is movement, which can be best conveyed by long, flowing lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    I have a theory that petting habits come from people not understanding what artists do when they are sketching and trying to imitate it. Children don't pet.
    Interesting theory. It has something to it but I'm not sure it's entirely correct.

    When I was taught to 'sketch'/pet as a child, it was because I found it hard to draw a straight line, and the artist basically explained that doing it this way allows you to make corrections as you go.

    So petting can solve some problems (even if it introduces other problems, and even if there are better solutions like 'draw from your shoulder' and 'don't press down too hard' and 'make the line faster'). I don't think children adopt it blindly -- they keep doing it because it does solve a problem and they don't know a better way.

    I've only this year started learning that better way, even though you can see back in 2009 people here were saying I should stop petting my lines. (Kudos to Arenhaus for explaining some of the better solutions.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    Blind contour helps with lines but it ruins everything else.
    How does it help with lines? (Does it help more than practising lines through gesture?) When you say "ruins everything else", I assume you mean that it doesn't produce a good picture, rather than it creates bad habits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonor View Post
    I think if the pose is not realistic that might harm your understanding of what poses are possible for humans.
    As far as I know, the main criticism of Posemaniacs is not that the poses are unrealistic (anyone know if that's the case?), but the muscles are unrealistic or stretched in weird ways. But also, if you're doing fast gesture drawings, you're already doing things unrealistically, bending figures in impossible/exaggerated ways. IMO it's only when you get into longer poses that Posemaniacs starts to be too inaccurate to be useful.


    @fireblade -

    Thanks for leaving a comment! No, I draw infrequently so not a whole lot of drawing between those times (and almost entirely just studies), but I'm working on that. Getting into this stuff more seriously since June.

    I still don't draw as much as others, but I think a lot and that seems to be effective.


    Exhibit A - Friend was like, "Do you even know values and edges?" because I've barely ever actually done value drawings -- most of my stuff has been line work (presumably from old anime habits), with shading as an afterthought. I like to think I know them quite well because I know the theory/science behind it and I crit and read the Critique Center a bunch. But I haven't really tried. He said he'd like to see me do a value study of a still life*. So here it is:

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    Photo comparison, about the same angle I was viewing it at (I think I was working at roughly sight-size, but not to the sight-size method -- must try that):
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    Took 2hrs. Got it mostly down in the first hour, and spent the second hour refining and polishing. The perspective bothers me (I could only see what was wrong with it after I took this photo when I was done), and I noticed in the last 10 minutes that I didn't push my shadow values enough. Ah well, you draw and learn.

    * EDIT: Friend points out that to really test my knowledge of value/edges, he would have suggested I render something from imagination -- a study doesn't prove much. He suggested I do a still life in order to test ability to see, not imagine.

    Last edited by Lulie; August 1st, 2013 at 01:08 PM.
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  8. #38
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    This friend of yours seems like a complete douchebag. Nice job with the still life.
    Other than perspective and placement, I'd recommend you focus on how cast shadows work. Also, there's a plane facing down on the bottom, you can see it makes a core shadow, but it gets lighter with the bounce light from the paper, you drew it all in shade and all the way around the mouse.

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    Only when he makes in-jokey comments on my sketchbook. ;P Anyway, thank you, friend.

    Yes I certainly need to be thinking more in planes and light. Was pretty much only thinking about shapes and values (and too much relative values -- reflected light on the right edge is too strong I think). I'll try thinking in planes and post the results soon.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulie View Post
    I'm not worried, it's just that I thought I had learnt enough that I've already replaced my anime-symbols, and apparently I haven't. I want more realism, not style. Hence curious what style elements are most obvious.
    I didn't mean worried as in emo-worried. I meant that probably anime style doesn't show as much as you think. Starting with anime (for your generation and younger) is common enough that people can throw a wild guess that you started with anime without it being related with how you are drawing right now.

    One strategy for overcoming embarrassment is to take it in humour.
    Humour is not a virtue, especially not self-mockery (see Ayn Rand).

    To get rid of embarrassment one has to be less second handed, not more. Becoming the court jester to self and friends seems more second-handed.

    Gestures seem ideal for practicing line quality/economy, because
    a) you have to go fast -- superfluous lines slow you down, hesitant petting is too slow
    But once you have to draw slower to build up more complexity into the drawing, does it still work or you go back to petting?

    I don't think children adopt it blindly -- they keep doing it because it does solve a problem and they don't know a better way.
    I didn't mean people adopt it blindly by "imitating" just that they are doing something else other than what is intended.

    (Meta: please drop the intro compliments when you're going to crit. "Oh yes, your theory is kinda cute, you kinda have a point except it's totally wrong of course, but because I was nice and petted your mind you'll listen to me." ;P)

    Just throw the crits. Raw.

    How does it help with lines? (Does it help more than practising lines through gesture?) When you say "ruins everything else", I assume you mean that it doesn't produce a good picture, rather than it creates bad habits.
    Following contours is a bad way to see.

    As far as I know, the main criticism of Posemaniacs is not that the poses are unrealistic (anyone know if that's the case?), but the muscles are unrealistic or stretched in weird ways. But also, if you're doing fast gesture drawings, you're already doing things unrealistically, bending figures in impossible/exaggerated ways. IMO it's only when you get into longer poses that Posemaniacs starts to be too inaccurate to be useful.
    Not sure I understand the point of gesture if you're not going to learn realistic poses. It's just to clean up lines? You could draw buildings fast, or cars or whatever.

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  11. #41
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    Black Spot is offline Pew, Pew, Pew Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    The SP is still recognisably you regardless of any errors. Maybe with the mouse you want to make a tonal chart first to compare the values.


    I didn't think it was possible to be called an artist when you have nothing to say. It's like being a writer who publishes individual words as books and expects to be praised for it.
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  12. #42
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    i love all the notes and stuff you leave on your pages. makes looking through your sb very interesting!

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    cool stuff! and keep up the hard work

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