Explaination for creating Ęphotoshop type" brushes in painter?

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    Explaination for creating Ęphotoshop type" brushes in painter?

    Q: can i create Ęphotoshop type" brushes in painter?

    A: not exactly no. the differences in the brush engines of painter and photoshop make it very difficult to create brushes that behave in similar ways in the opposing app. having said this it does not mean that certain effects cannot be achieved in either app, using the right technique you can do almost anything the other app can do, of course this usually means investing considerably more time and effort than is required in the app you are trying to mimic.

    Q: But why can┤t i create the simple hard round brush from ps in painter...... its just a simple brush isn┤t it?
    A: this boils down to one thing, how opacity works in each app. in photoshop opacity is stroke based, in painter it is dab based. a dab is what a single touch of the brush looks like i.e.the image you use for a custom brush, for the simple hard round brush in ps it is a solid circle. a stroke is a a collection of overlapping dabs. now to how this effects what you can and can┤t do. AS you draw you get overlap on the edges of dabs as they cross over each other to form the stroke. when you lay in a single dab in painter or ps of the same color and opacity with a basic round brush you get exactly the same effect. the problem is this is the only time the effect is the same.notic e how in painter as you change the spacing settings not only the contour of the stroke changes (AS IN PS) but the actual opacity changes also. this is because any part of a dab that overlaps another dab will add the same amount of opacity to the one below it.therefore spacing has a bigger effect on how the brush strokes look in painter, the more dabs that over lap in one area the darker the stroke will appear. in photoshop the opacity setting sets the upper limit of the opacity of a single stroke(defined by from when the pen touches the pad until it is lifted) if it is set to 10% any overlap of the dabs that exceed 10% opacity are automatically discounted and with opacity set to 10% you can cross over your stroke with itself without changing the opacity so long as you don┤t lift the pen.in painter every time a dab crosses another it will add the opacity of the new dab without exception.
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    for strokes to look smooth there has to be overlap, this is where the problem lies for painter. but painter does have a feature to combat these unsightly overlaps, blend. so in painter to get rid of the overlapping edges of dabs you have to use the blend setting. this would be fine except for one thing that makes mimicking the simple round ps brush not possible, stroke cross over. say you ar shading and area with a zig zag stroke, every time the stroke crosses itself it will be darker, sticking out like a sore thumb.



    Q: i don┤t understand, you say you can┤t create ps type brushes but you can mimic the effects, what does that mean?
    A: Basicly you need to understand how ps makes its brushes look that way and then use what painter has to offer to do the same in a long winded manner instead of thinking of what painter can┤t do, because there is nothing you can do about that. there is a way to set the upper limit of the opacity of a stroke in painter too. simply create a new layer and stroke at full opacity (with or without Pressure set in expression) on the layer then change the opacity of the layer and drop it. this is however a considerable burden on work flow, but it is the only viable solution i know of.

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    if this isn┤t explained propewrly or is to complicated to understand please reply and i┤ll try to make it

    better

    rat

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    Just a note, that The Real hard media marker brushes don't ''cover themselves" until you lift and make a new stroke. This is in Painter 11 only.

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    wow arshes thats great, , only difference i see is you can effectively erase in the same stroke by using very little pressure.... hmmm havent seen any posts about this new feature... have i been under a rock?

    its time to knuckle down and really lick boot!
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    Thanks for posting this. As a Photoshop "native," it's one of the things that annoys me most about Painter, unfortunately. =/ I would like to point out for anyone having the opposite problem (i.e. trying to get used to Photoshop's opacity), Photoshop does offer Painter's dab-based approach to opacity; it's just called flow instead of opacity.

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    Thanks rattsang, this thread is a nice idea!
    Quote Originally Posted by rattsang View Post
    wow arshes thats great, , only difference i see is you can effectively erase in the same stroke by using very little pressure.... hmmm havent seen any posts about this new feature... have i been under a rock?
    In fact those new brushes work only with gel composite method so you can only darken your paint with them.

    Corel used a trick to create them and it is the reason why they work only with gel. Instead of using opacity, they used value to emulate the effect and it is why it works only with gel composite method. If you set back the layer to normal, you will see your 20% opacity brush stroke is in fact a 100% opacity brush stroke with value corresponding to 20% opacity once viewed in gel composite method.
    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Photoshop does offer Painter's dab-based approach to opacity; it's just called flow instead of opacity.
    Yes, I repost here this image
    Explaination for  creating Ęphotoshop type" brushes in painter?

    Now, no one should understand that like a limitation which makes Painter more limited because Painter offers many many kind of brushes.

    Last edited by hecartha; September 10th, 2009 at 02:37 AM.
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    I hadn't seen that image before - it does a really nice job of explaining the difference visually. Would have helped me out a lot if I'd seen it a few years ago!

    And I would say it is a limitation, and a rather significant one for someone like me who's addicted to Photoshop workflows, but obviously, there are plenty of artists who make Painter work beautifully for them, thanks to its many unique advantages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hecartha View Post
    Thanks rattsang, this thread is a nice idea!
    In fact those new brushes work only with gel composite method so you can only darken your paint with them.

    Corel used a trick to create them and it is the reason why they work only with gel. Instead of using opacity, they used value to emulate the effect and it is why it works only with gel composite method. If you set back the layer to normal, you will see your 20% opacity brush stroke is in fact a 100% opacity brush stroke with value corresponding to 20% opacity once viewed in gel composite method.
    awwww i was hoping it would be a proper transparent brush, oh well. got me all hyped up to upgrade....... hmmmm would it be worth it?

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    Try the demo?
    I was really happy about new UI and a few bug-fixes
    but 11 comes shipped with the dumbest painter bug ever.
    the new hard media brushes are really sweet as they have, I'd call it, true tilt recognition.
    And another thing - it was loading my cpu so much so I just couldn't stand the constant noise.
    I'm looking for p-12, as corel don't seem to care about major patches anymore (like, there's no sign of 11.5 coming)

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    ive tried the demo..... and there were some notable bugs including some of the now infamous new bugs in things that havent even been changed that painter seems to be known for. things that annoyed me include....

    color management' why fuck with my blacks?
    space no longer scrolls the mixer pad? wtf why remove this feature
    the magic jumping dabs and streaks
    some of the older small bugs not addressed such as the artifacts in scratchboard tool at less than 100% opacity
    radom crashes while rotating the canvas on the fly
    blah blah no one is listening............

    of course on the plus side weve got

    new sizable color wheel
    hard media
    err should nt there be some bug fixes in here some where....

    hmmm cant think of anything else and my trial is over so i cant snoop

    Last edited by rattsang; September 10th, 2009 at 10:34 AM.
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    I remember having issues with resizable colour wheel, lol - sometimes it got stuck and nothing could change its size for a while. I don't know what could be the reason - I never stack it to other panels (layers palette wasn't resizable if stacked)
    Full versions of p-11 seems to have some weird issues with licensing (error 18 and such) - I didn't upgrade so don't know if it happens that often.

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    http://img41.imageshack.us/i/testiw.jpg/

    The best one that mimics photoshop, its scratchboard tool pen, some people just move opacity down and do strokes, but you will notice it will leave something really weird at the begginning of the stroke, because its rendered, i had found the perfect solution for this annoying thing, just add the presure option in opacity on the brush settings, and you will notice how magically the annoying weird dtroke at the beginning magically dissapears.

    You can do dark strokes and white strokes with this brush, its awesome.

    The only bad side its that you cant do zig zag strokes, cause it will get a weird effect, but for Rembrant tecnique with glazing like photoshop its great, i recomend this brush using it this way, took me a lot of time to realize how to solve that stroke thing.


    This brush its wesome for sketching you will like it.

    Last edited by Elsevilla; September 11th, 2009 at 01:17 PM. Reason: adding image
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattsang View Post
    ive tried the demo..... and there were some notable bugs including some of the now infamous new bugs in things that havent even been changed that painter seems to be known for. things that annoyed me include....

    color management' why fuck with my blacks?
    space no longer scrolls the mixer pad? wtf why remove this feature
    the magic jumping dabs and streaks
    some of the older small bugs not addressed such as the artifacts in scratchboard tool at less than 100% opacity
    radom crashes while rotating the canvas on the fly
    blah blah no one is listening............

    of course on the plus side weve got

    new sizable color wheel
    hard media
    err should nt there be some bug fixes in here some where....

    hmmm cant think of anything else and my trial is over so i cant snoop

    It seems you complain to much about painter, maybe its not your program, if you want photoshop brushes i recomend you to go to photoshop, then when you want painter brushes, come back to this program, what its cool about this programs its compatibility.

    There are no such things as bad art, just tight deadlines.
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    he's complaining about recent versions' bugs, I can't imagine anyone who's fine with program, getting worse and worse.
    I'm on painter 6.1 and 10 right now, and feel no need to upgrade - and those bugs are a few reasons not to do that.

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    Sometimes painter behaves different in old machiens than new ones, like painter 6.1 works great in old laptops and in new ones dont work as good as new software, painter its a little bitchy, but than how i luv that software.

    Last edited by Elsevilla; September 11th, 2009 at 03:18 PM. Reason: bad language thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikken View Post
    he's complaining about recent versions' bugs, I can't imagine anyone who's fine with program, getting worse and worse.
    I'm on painter 6.1 and 10 right now, and feel no need to upgrade - and those bugs are a few reasons not to do that.
    I have painter 6.1 also on my pc, bug has the sme bugs as painter X and runs slower than my painter 11 on a vista, sometimes the combinations of new pcs vs old pcs or windows settings can create conflicts with painter.

    Im guess im one of the lucky ones that doesnt have bugs with paionter just a few, but luv this new software, im married to this software, its like a marriage, if you dont enjoy the little bugs, then its not for him.

    The topic of this thread was that he wanted brushes of painter like photoshop, thats why i mention him that he better use photoshop for that.

    Some people say that works even better on macs, but im not lucky enough to have a mac, but still luv how it works on my hp.

    People i admire like Ryan church or Andrew jones dont complain about painter, probably thats why they do great jobs.

    If i sounded harsh or something i aplogize, because english its not my main language.

    Al i was saying was that if he doesnt like painter that much, will be better for him to work in a software that gives him the result as painter, like for you painter 6.1 and for me painter 11

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    On color management. I noticed even if my settings are ok in Photoshop and Painter (using srgb or Adobe) I still have problems when I port the document to Sai Paint. Anyone know what's the problem or how to fix that? (I'm just curious and will work on it myself...which is why I am not starting another topic).

    Yeah, most of the frustration I've been noting are with users who have been with Painter for years. There is still some complaining to complain, but these people also know Painter pretty well and knows its good qualities which is why they hang out in the forum here.

    I notice I still get stray dabs, it's just a lot less worse than before.

    Painter 11 has been launching more slow than X for me at this time, and I knew it was going to happen once I introduced custom brushes. The sad thing is, I only installed 3 sets of custom brushes.

    I have been finding some interesting ways to use the flat rendering marker to do the block ins, and then adding blenders for effects.

    I know other people who use the tinting brush... as always it's a personal style thing.

    The bugs rattsang are talking about - missing strokes was definitely present but I suspect his trial ran out before it was resolved. Color management I've seen some problems with. Old bugs, present for around 3 or more versions. For me, I still get the crashing with guides and rulers enabled.

    Mainly when I see a new version out, its of the hope it stops bugs, not leaves old one in and create new ones. Painter still introduced some new features but yeah if you're waiting for fixes 2-4 versions I can understand frustration. Specially given Painter's long history as seen here http://w3.poporo.ne.jp/~dddo/oekakie.../sshotall.html

    As for CS4 I didn't bother to test an upgrade because the features I was interested in are video card dependent. I haven't upgraded my computer(s) to take advantage of them, so there is no point.

    Also thanks for the demos hecartha and rattsang. Good thing to point out to users.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsevilla View Post
    It seems you complain to much about painter, maybe its not your program, if you want photoshop brushes i recomend you to go to photoshop, then when you want painter brushes, come back to this program, what its cool about this programs its compatibility.
    painter is a very cool program and id recommend it to anyone, it is however at times very very annoying, and for anyone whos used it extensively this needs no explanation. i dont really like ps thats why i use painter. it has nothing to do with results or brushes, we are talking about pixels being placed where you dont put them and colors not regiestering as the color wheel has labeled them. well im still on the wall about upgrading, anyone solve the stray dabs bug yet?

    its time to knuckle down and really lick boot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattsang View Post
    painter is a very cool program and id recommend it to anyone, it is however at times very very annoying, and for anyone whos used it extensively this needs no explanation. i dont really like ps thats why i use painter. it has nothing to do with results or brushes, we are talking about pixels being placed where you dont put them and colors not regiestering as the color wheel has labeled them. well im still on the wall about upgrading, anyone solve the stray dabs bug yet?
    I was talking about that you wanted a photoshop brush, did the pen with opacity presure helped you?

    What still dont like about painter, its that the brushes behaves great in canvas, but if you use them on layers, over 4500 pixels wide, you get like 4 to 3 seconds of lags.

    I had that bug you mentioned about a weird stroke, it was the driver of my wacom, i had to return to an old one, or fully erase painter with wacom preferences and install it again, the problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    On color management. I noticed even if my settings are ok in Photoshop and Painter (using srgb or Adobe) I still have problems when I port the document to Sai Paint. Anyone know what's the problem or how to fix that? (I'm just curious and will work on it myself...which is why I am not starting another topic).

    Yeah, most of the frustration I've been noting are with users who have been with Painter for years. There is still some complaining to complain, but these people also know Painter pretty well and knows its good qualities which is why they hang out in the forum here.

    I notice I still get stray dabs, it's just a lot less worse than before.

    Painter 11 has been launching more slow than X for me at this time, and I knew it was going to happen once I introduced custom brushes. The sad thing is, I only installed 3 sets of custom brushes.

    I have been finding some interesting ways to use the flat rendering marker to do the block ins, and then adding blenders for effects.

    I know other people who use the tinting brush... as always it's a personal style thing.

    The bugs rattsang are talking about - missing strokes was definitely present but I suspect his trial ran out before it was resolved. Color management I've seen some problems with. Old bugs, present for around 3 or more versions. For me, I still get the crashing with guides and rulers enabled.

    Mainly when I see a new version out, its of the hope it stops bugs, not leaves old one in and create new ones. Painter still introduced some new features but yeah if you're waiting for fixes 2-4 versions I can understand frustration. Specially given Painter's long history as seen here http://w3.poporo.ne.jp/~dddo/oekakie.../sshotall.html

    As for CS4 I didn't bother to test an upgrade because the features I was interested in are video card dependent. I haven't upgraded my computer(s) to take advantage of them, so there is no point.

    Also thanks for the demos hecartha and rattsang. Good thing to point out to users.
    What do you mean by port? I got sai too, but never saw a problem like you mention before.

    There are no such things as bad art, just tight deadlines.
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    i never said i wanted a ps brush this is more a statement of whether or not it is possible. there are issues with using the rendered brush types at less than 100% i use this brush sometimes but the results are quite ragged... but like i said i dont really use transparent brushes myself painter handles opaque paint better and besides the blending in painter is awesome

    its time to knuckle down and really lick boot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsevilla View Post
    What do you mean by port? I got sai too, but never saw a problem like you mention before.
    I'll post up the file when I get a chance

    I have a file I worked on in Painter with the color management settings on. I saved the file as psd to move it to Sai Paint.

    When I bring it up in Sai, the colors are all wrong or mud. When I bring it up in PS, I don't have this problem...

    I tried changing the settings to sRGB still the same problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I'll post up the file when I get a chance

    I have a file I worked on in Painter with the color management settings on. I saved the file as psd to move it to Sai Paint.

    When I bring it up in Sai, the colors are all wrong or mud. When I bring it up in PS, I don't have this problem...

    I tried changing the settings to sRGB still the same problem.
    Thats really weird, never had that problem, maybe cause i start them on sai them move them to painter, what version of sai do you have?

    There are no such things as bad art, just tight deadlines.
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