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SO i know this has nothing to do with art, but i'm really looking for advice on this.
Soooo this just happened.
William who grew up in state A and now lives in state B has brought his wife, one and a half year old son, and 2 dogs back to state A for a few weeks. They're staying with his mother and her boyfriend, so she can spend time with her grandson. They do this a few times a year.
We had a party tonight at his moms place. we're all of age, and there was plenty of drinking, but nothing sloppy. Just a gathering of late twenties people having a bbq.
The moms' boyfriends' daughter (who also lives there) has a female friend over as well.
Well that friend has the most to drink and went to get something from her car at the end of the driveway. Its dark out and she heads up the driveway. One of the dogs (a great dane who has always been nice) growls at the girl in the dark. She get to where everyone is outside and starts with the drunkin "Hey boy why are you growling, you know me"...blah blah blah stuff.
Even though the dog is growling (and being yelled at by william who starts heading over to keep things cool) the girl crouches down and says "I don't get it an hour we were all kissy"
She puts her face in his face making kissy noises and the dog bites her fucking face.
Williams mother who is a nurse, and works at a hospital, does what she can there and the rush her to the ER.
Now here's the dilemma
1) William is scared he's gonna get sued for everything he has....We don't know the extent of the injuries yet. Is the fault on him being the dog owner, or does it go to the property owner? is the girl in any way to blame for this?
2) He feel he HAS to put the dog down, because he has a 1 1/2 year old son and can not tolerate a dog who would bite a human. He feel he can't give it away because he don't want it to attack some other child. I understand what he means but i don't know if i agree with it.
Is this action forgivable?
This is an actual even that occurred less than 2 hours ago. I am interested in the debate about this, but also thankful for any advice you guys may have....
J: Don't call my escorts hookers.
B: Mom's still got it!
J: I don't date whores!
L: This objectification of women has to stop!
M: It's just mom and whores...
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It can vary but it's usually the fault of the person who owns the dog. I also believe there is insurance in case of incidents of this. I can't remember it was under a homeowner's insurance of with a pet insurance.
This also varies, I've heard of cases where a dog can be fine if it was an isolated incident.
I'm curious about the breed of dogs your friends have, because certain breeds have personality traits one could look for, and it can also help if in the case the dog stays you can learn to curb habits.
Also as a general rule, do not keep pets alone with young children. Doesn't matter how docile you feel your family pet is, the child is not large enough or knowing enough to detect alpha dog behavior - after all they're still direct descendants of wolves.
Also pets around young children unattended dog, cat whatever is just a bad idea overall.
I also think that the liability is with the owner and not the property owner. If I were walking my dog and it attacks you in a neighbor's yard as you were walking past, you can't hold the random neighbor responsible, can you?
I'd think the biggest issue now is if this girl is going to want to sue and how much. I can't say that either side is clearly innocent or guilty, and it does sound like she is the one most at fault, but it was his dog. I also don't know if his decision to have the dog put down would have any influence on either his liability or her desire to get legal, but it might
sounds like a rotten situation for all involved though
If someone put their face in the bear pen at the zoo. And got mad their nose got bitten off, who's fault is it?
If you have witnesses saying she provoked the dog, putting it down doesn't have to happen. But I would suggest keeping the dog in it's home environment. No more long trips. Which I assume is why he acted out.
But like Arshes Nei said, your interest should always been in human lives. And if the animal has tasted human blood and can't remain docile anymore. I would put it down and get an ankle biter.
I am not a big fan of dogs, I know that most of them never bite a human but I am convinced that they are all capable of it under the right circumstances. Every dog owner I have met has had the attitude that their dog could never bite someone, some even seem to think that after they _have_ bitten someone and blame it on the person who got bitten.. Everone doesn't know how dogs work, if you let your dog loose among unkowing people or children who might unintentionally provoke it, I think you should be responsible if something happens.
Well I wasn't trying to compare animals. More so comparing common sense. If someone sticks their tongue in a mouse trap, does the contraption's owner be punished?
I particularly dislike dogs. Bad childhood memories. But I would be disgusted if the dog was put down for someone's stupidity. And more often than not, animals in these circumstances are put down.
If this great dane bit her just once then I don't see any need to get it put down. It was likely just annoyed at having a drunken woman menace it on a dark driveway. I know I would be. It clearly didn't intend any harm. The owner might want to get it checked out, however, as dogs sometimes bite when they're not feeling well. Perhaps the car ride didn't agree with it.
I can't advise on the legal situation. It seems if someone gets a thorn in their ass they want to sue these days.
It is entirely the responsibility of the dog owner. Homeowner's insurance will cover the suit, if one is filed.
My nephew's face was bitten by their next-door neighbor's dog, his cheek ripped off and his face damaged beyond repair. He was 2, and he didn't even see the dog to provoke it, it just came running out of the house and straight for the toddler.
He is now 18 and has suffered through dozens of facial surgeries to be able to open his mouth completely, which he still cannot do.
So yeah, fuck the dog. People are way more important, even stupid ones.
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We actually just went through this with a dog that my mom had. He wound up having to be put down and I don't think your friend's dog has to be, but I'll explain the difference between my mom's case and yours.
My mother's dog would bite with no warning. It didn't matter if it was friends, strangers or family. It would happen without a growl, under calm/usual circumstances, and it was vicious. It happened several times and the final time was an oil man who had come over to fill up the tank for the winter, he came to the door and, while my mother was writing him a check, the little dog ran over and wailed on him. Luckily, it was a bigger guy and the dog was only a 10lb. Shih Tzu so he was able to shake him off pretty easily, but the dog still drew quite a bit of blood. The state said he HAD to be quarantined for 14 days (in case of rabies) and then put down or put down immediately and have the vet send the dogs head in for testing. The whole situation was terrible - thankfully the guy who had gotten bitten wasn't that upset by the whole situation and didn't hold my family responsible.. (I think he felt like he couldn't be when he saw how upset my mom was.) The vet felt that the dog was probably a result of poor breeding and probably had a screw loose (which can happen when people breed dogs and don't have a clean line/know what they're doing) because he said it was NOT normal dog behavior, even though every dog does have the ability to bite. A dog who isn't dangerous will never bite it's master and will always give warning first - never attack unannounced.
Now, I tell you all that so that I can say this: your friend's dog has no history of biting. It was unusual circumstances (having traveled). He obviously felt threatened by this girl (probably because she was drunk and whatnot) and gave her warning to back off. She got in his face despite his clear warning. I don't believe the dog has to be put down because she was the one who pushed the boundaries, not the dog. I'm not saying that she doesn't have a right to be upset that she got bit (because it's an upsetting experience, I'm sure), but she certainly can't deny that it was kind of her own fault it happened.
I can understand if your friend is nervous having the dog around his kid now - any parent would be. I think that, if he's that uncomfortable, he could find the dog a home with no children in it, but I really think it's a drastic measure at this point given the circumstances the bite happened in.
I'd be curious to know how the dog behaves on a regular basis? How old is the dog? How long have they had it? Just for a basis of comparison to how he acted at the party. I think his typical behavior would be the determining factor if this was a bite that had been waiting to happen (any time, any place) or if it was this girl's fault that it even happened in the first place.
Hard to make an attempt to defend the dog's life by saying the victim was stupid and the dog was out of its element.You know who's dumb and can be found anywhere? Little kids. Screw the dog. Put it down.
When I was 5, my family's dog attacked me and nearly killed me. My jaw was broken. My nose was broken. My eye socket had to be re-constructed. I had to undergo a ton of reconstructive surgery. I wore sunglasses whenever I went outside for a long time after that. My tear ducts are still fxcked up and I'm lucky I don't have double vision. This was a mature dog that we'd had for years. It showed NO signs of hostility towards people before then and attacked without warning. I wasn't antagonizing the dog. My brother had just taken me off of his shoulders. My father and brother were around and still couldn't intervene quick enough. That's how fast and unexpected it can happen. Why the fxck would you take the chance of this dog later killing someone?
No, I wasn't saying all dogs should be put down or they shouldn't be allowed to be pets. I've had several dogs since the attack and take my own to the dog park regularly. I do however think that a mature dog that has bitten is more likely to and isn't worth the risk. One bite is unforgivable in my opinion unless we're talking something minor by a puppy.
Ok, here's a quick fact sheet or page about Great Danes.
Great Danes were originally bred to be aggressive fighters, now they're considered gentle - but all I remember from dog history is that their original instincts still stay intact despite this. It's why terriers are so aggressive with certain objects - they were originally used to hunt vermin.
One thing I noticed is that Great Danes are also a breed that are often excluded from homeowner insurance due to public perception/type of breed it is.
A well socialized Great Dane is generally nice around others, but there are times it will be aggressive.
It's funny how everyone wants to blame the girl for getting bit..."she stuck her face up to his! OMFG!". Obviously, she had played with it earlier, and I'm sure she was assured he doesn't bite because people just don't approach dogs that size without some notion that it won't maul you. Now add the fact that they were all drinking.
I'd say the dog owner was a bit more stupid, or at the very least irresponsible. A long trip, different territory (in dog terms), strangers, and booze...that dog should have been put somewhere where he wouldn't be in contact or bothered by both people or other dogs. Animal behavior changes quite quickly when they perceive themselves as being in hostile territory.
I've had a dog pretty much my whole life (4 total, as all but one have died of old age or age related disease). And, I can say that in instances like this it is absolutely the owner's fault, because he did not anticipate his dog's behavior or possible behavior under foreign situations. A responsible and/or experienced owner would always keep their animal's temperament in mind when undergoing drastic changes.
You can't rely on previous behavior, because previous behavior is usually defined by that animal being in its own territory or environment. Also, as an owner, the larger the dog the greater precaution you have to take. Had this been a child, it very likely could have killed or maimed them, even with just a warning bite.
On a personal note, as soon as I discovered that my wife and I were having a baby, I turned my dog of eight years, Isabel, over to a family member because as both a father and an owner it was the most responsible thing I could do. I got the peace of mind that Isabel was in a loving home with someone she was familiar with and my son was in a safe environment. When someone is unintentionally injured by an attack and a dog has to be "put down", I most definitely point it back at the person who chose to undergo the responsibility of ownership.
As far as putting it down, he may have to do it because of legal issues, but I think it would be a shame. If at all possible, it would be better to let someone,preferably without children, adopt him. And, considering the girl that was attacked doesn't seem to be in any close relation with the owner, I would probably start getting ready for a lawsuit.
Exactly, Arshes, this is why people need to spend more time thinking about the kind of dog they want before getting one. I mean, in your friend's defence, He probably had the dog long before he knew he'd have a child, and then who wants to give up a dog without good reason?
I love dogs. I'd love to have one, once my home is finished. I've also been attacked and almost bit in the face by a dog that was poorly cared for (possibly trained for dog fighting?). If the hole in that fence had been a bit wider, he would'a got me. People are more important than dogs. Dogs are cute companions with a simple job - sit there and be cute. Once they fuck up that job, then they're not so cute anymore, are they? And, they should be put down. This one should, especially considering his size and potential to cause great harm.
I think it's irresponsible to call this the woman's fault. It's the fault of the dog. She'd met him earlier and they got along fine. He should've known her smell, regardless of the dark. Anything like a great dane, mastiff, or rottweiler should only be owned by someone as a homesecurity means, they should be specially trained, and they should be purchased at a very young age, both to get to know the owner, and to prevent any third party from traumatizing them.
I've found dogs become aggressive for the following reasons:
2. abuse, especially at a young age
3. too small a living space, especially when kept in all day.
4. not enough exposure to strangers.
6. physical defects. My brother had a retriever whose hips were too small. Sometimes you'd reach to pet him and his movement would hurt, and he'd bite you as a reflex - as if you caused the pain.
My advice: your friend needs to contact his insurance company and see if they'll cover it. He needs to assure that lady he'll do everything he can to fix her up and pay for it, so it doesn't come to a lawsuit. He also needs to find a lawyer to find what a court would say about guilt, and the dog.
EDIT: Quoted for Truth, "that dog should have been put somewhere where he wouldn't be in contact or bothered by both people or other dogs."
When I was 7 I was walking around outside of a store with my father and ready to go in. A large dog, untended, had been left outside of one of the restaurants while it's owner went in to have a drink. It broke the lead, went for my face and got my hand instead since I put it up in time. It tore apart my hand. It took a year of rehabilitation and skin graphs before I could use it properly. This is a case of owner neglect and dog at fault. I was walking innocently towards a store (not even in its direction) and it had a history of aggression. It had to be put down. This I agree with.
I am still scared of larger dogs because of this. Well, certain types.
However my parents have a dog and he was a rescue animal. We got him when he was a year old he had been kept in small cages, not socialized, he was from a puppy mill. People he knew, he was fine with. New people he was always strange and so we kept him away from them. Never around children either, just in case. And one day, one of the people he was weird around purposely went up to him saying no, I am great with dogs. Despite repeatedly saying no, don't go near him, she went... He growled and she backed off slightly. But she reached and took food from the table. He thought she was taking my mom's food and bit her. He had growled, she didn't back off. He gave her many warning signs and WE kept him away from her but she went to him (when no one was paying attention as well, by the way). And then she got bitten. It didn't go to court because even the girl's mom felt it was her daughter's fault.
If the dog gives you warning signs and the people around you say stop it's partially your fault.
But I've been on both sides of this scenario... So it gives me perspective. I'd say that the dog doesn't necessarily need to be put down. He shouldn't be taken to strange environments and he needs to be monitored. But if she takes it to court, even if the fault is deemed to be hers, he's still likely going to get put down. Courts are harsh on that.
I feel bad for the dog because it tried to warn her and she didn't back off. Whether or not she played with it earlier, people should have some common sense. A growling dog means stay away.
Yeah, but if you're the owner, why are you letting it growl at your guest?
I teach English. One time last year, I came to fill in for another teacher who was leaving early. She had a little dauchsund (sp) that she let jump down and run up to me growling and nipping the air. Whatever, it's a weiner dog, I wasn't bothered, and I just stood patiently (what you should do). The other teacher didn't do anything, though, she just sat smiling for a few minutes, never calling off the dog, till I finally asked her to.
THE OWNER SHOULD ALWAYS SCOLD A DOG FOR AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR. PERIOD.
Unless you've trained your dog for defence (maybe the mafia's after you) you need to train your dog to be friendly to everyone. The second he growls, you shouldn't be telling your neighbor to be careful, you should go up and discipline your dog. Tap his nose and say no. You know what also works? I was good friends with a neighbor's dog who also disliked strangers. I brought a girlfriend over one day and he growled at her. I just went up and gave her a hug, looking at him and saying, "see this is a friend." After that, he let her hold his leash.
Your family pet isn't a guard dog. You know the difference? Guard dogs do exactly what you tell them, and you only have to say it once. I visited a guy with four mastiffs once. specially trained. They trotted up to me the second I arrived, and the owner was there. He gave one command, and they trotted away happily. They followed me around throughout the day, as I walked out in the yard, but they never made any aggressive sign. It was like secret service was there.
Last edited by TASmith; September 8th, 2009 at 02:39 PM.
I don't see why the fault lies on just one party. It's both the dog owner and the drunk woman's fault.
Who knows what set off the dog at the time, but unfortunately if I'm reading the OP's story the guy came over too late. I'm not sure what he was yelling, but danger situation when you have a dog over and people are inebriated and lacking some sense.
The woman being drunk doesn't help. Yes, it's a party but any other kind of situation where she gets hurt because she's inebriated will be seen as her fault.
This is one of those situations where I think both have to chalk up losses. No one is a winner.
"It's never ever the fault of the dog."
I can see how you might say that, ultimately. If you look up at the reasons I posted for dogs becoming aggressive, all those stem from people being to blame. But what I'm getting at is, the dog chose to bite, and it shouldn't have. It's not so much that the dog is at fault as, it's faulty, like a piece of machinery, and is likely to do it again. And should be put down. Not every dog is like that. Sure, maybe, maybe the owner in question isn't the greatest - with a baby to take care of he's probably really busy and all. But whatever happened to that dog prior, it probably can't be fixed at this point.
I have a dog myself at my current home, well socialized, happy, thinks the world is his best friend, was trained in bite inhabition from the day we got him. It's a lot about training. But there are some circumstances where you can't change it so you do your best to keep things separated if they can't work together.
uh... nope.It's never ever the fault of the dog.
Think about it.
I mean, if you want to take that line, you could make the same argument that no person is ever at fault for their actions either. After all, we're all clean slates and it's the cruel stimulus of the world around us which shapes us. Everything we are and become is the sum of our genetic make-up and the influence of our environment and the other creatures which inhabit it. Criminals of the worst kind are no more to blame than selfless humanitarians are to be praised, because all are equally responding to their programming, right? Dogs are animals, people are animals. The only difference is complexity and intelligence.
People who don't take responsibility for their dog shouldn't own one. It's the human's responsibility to know his/her dog's boundaries and act accordingly. I wouldn't allow my pets near drunk, boisterous guests or children they don't know, not because they are especially aggressive but because I feel it's plain common sense (and I certainly wouldn't want to risk my dog being branded a murderous beast because some people have no clue how to behave around animals).
Sounds like this dog was out of its environment, dealing with near-strangers and probably insecure and fearful. Even if it had seen the woman before, she was now smelling of booze and acting aggressively to its point of view: insistance, eye-contact, moving close to its face (I mean if you'll have guests bent on pushing every single button known to make a dog feel threatened, give it a bloody chance for itself and put it in a pen first!)...
I hope that chick never gets near a horse...