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Thread: ivory black (or black)
August 12th, 2009 #1
ivory black (or black)
when should it be used?, and when not?
would it be wise to never use it, and resort always to mixtuers of ultramarine, crimson and wichever umber u use, etc?
some enlightening plz,
Hide this ad by registering as a memberAugust 13th, 2009 #2
Dispute of the century
This is a good question - for only to watch the battle of the opinions that will come of this question.
Many many painters are taught to mix chromatic blacks from complimentary transparent pigments and such. I for one love to use black, though I was taught to 'always mix my black'. If you think about it there isn't really a such thing as 'black pigment'. An example of this is when a tattoo fades, it fades to a green or a blue. Black is really just a concept. Some say it's the absence of all color, or light, and some say it's the presence of all colors in the spectrum. These theories don't translate to mixing pigments always though.
When painting, color and value are relative to what surrounds it. I try to see tubed black for what it is - a cool. White, Ultra Marine, Cobalt, etc.. and Black are the same 'color'. They are all cools by nature and will do the job of a cool.
For the sake of needing a black for the darkest of darks, it's up to you what you want to use for the black. If you need a warm black, then you mix it. If a cool black will do the job, then you can use a tubed black - or mix a cool black.
Tubed blacks have many uses though. Black + yellow ochre = a beautiful green for example. If you have super intense warms in your painting you may need to 'mute' down your cools using a black to create beautiful blues instead of having to mix a lot to mute down a saturated blue like ultra. It's all relative and up to the painter to make those choices.
p.s. If someone uses the word 'always' in their instruction pertaining to the arts - ignore them, I like the word "strongly suggested".
Hope this helps, I'm sure many will disagree (:
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August 13th, 2009 #3
i agree with raileyh, but have yet to use black from a tube.
I personaly haven't yet because you can mix it with other colors, it really all depends on the result your going for. when my shadows are going to be "black", i like to mix a few different versions of that "black" and create depth with warm and cools in the same value area. it's all how you use it.
for what it's worth, I have been thinking about picking up a tube of it to save myself some time mixing, as raileyh said.
August 13th, 2009 #4Registered User
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The way I see it is this.
One part of painting is a series of modifications to pigments to produce a desired colour. The most valuable pigments to my palette are those which allow the greatest modification.
Black pigment is a colour which does not work well when you try to modify it.
Another pigment which does not modify well, perhaps in a more subtle way and probably better illustrates the point is Ultramarine Blue. Ultramarine Blue when mixed with a yellow pigment will not make a nice green, nor will it make a nice purple when mixed with red.
But this is not to say these pigments are not useful in certain situations, but generally only when i do not intend to modify them too much.
hope that makes sense??
August 13th, 2009 #5
ah yes, kind of what i thought!
basically as one understands what black is, and what one needs, it's fine..
and maybe, be extra carefull when muting down colors, that the resulting grey or desat will not have the same strength as a grey mixed from colors..(?)
August 14th, 2009 #6www.tomvandewouwer.com
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August 14th, 2009 #7
mon3y: nice advice man! thx
art addict: i think then i meant get a pure grey when u need a low chroma thx
August 15th, 2009 #8
Ivory black is just a very low-value, very low-chroma blue-purple or blue. As it's nearly the darkest pigment available, it will lower the value of nearly every other color and shift it's hue towards the hue of the black pigment (which is never truly black). It will also lower the chroma in most situations- but this happens at the same time as the hue shift and value shift.
I haven't tested it personally, but my theoretical understanding is that mixing your own black from ultramarine/alizarin/whatever will not reach as low a value as ivory black, so leaving it off your palette narrows your gamut a bit- which can be fine in a lot of situations. If you need a truly neutral black that's as dark as possible, you can neutralize ivory black with a bit of raw or burnt umber. I believe I read somewhere that Holbein's Peach Black is slightly darker, though I haven't used it myself and am not aware of its hue or chroma.
Ultramarine blue is a low-value, high-chroma blue-purple. As such, it will make a wonderful green when mixed with a yellow pigment- however,the green will be lower in chroma than if you had used a blue that is greener than ultramarine, such as cobalt or pthalo blue. It will make a high chroma purple when mixed with a high chroma red-purple, such as alizarin crimson or quinacridone magenta. It will make a slightly lower chroma purple when mixed with a red such as perylene red, and an even lower chroma purple when mixed with a red-orange like most brands of cadmium red.
The key to understanding color is to stop thinking of it mainly in terms of pigments and their magical mixing properties and to start thinking more in terms of color in three dimensions and where those pigments sit in the three dimensions. I'd recommend checking out http://huevaluechroma.com to get a good foundation.
August 15th, 2009 #9
There is nothing unique or magical about black pigments. Learning to use and control them in mixtures is no different than than using any other color. Someone who really understands color mixing will be able to get the exact same results using and modifying black tubed paint as they could with any mixed black, except for the very, very bottom of the value scale.
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August 16th, 2009 #10
Ivory black is my favorite colour - it's great for desaturating other colours and I believe I enjoy it more because I was told not to use it in art school... ah the lure of the forbidden.
Instead of following 'rules' that teachers tell you, make some paintings with both tube black and mix-your-own black and work it out yourself - it really is worth taking the time as you'll learn more than by just reading and accepting.... and there's always the possibility that you might discover something totally amazing and new that nobody around you would think to suggest.
The only colour I would never recommend you using is Octarine.
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August 16th, 2009 #11
I think it is somewhat ridiculous when people say that you should never use black. Of course you should, it is great for a number of things. It is invaluable for desaturating colours - especially foliage and skin colours.
On the other hand it is a good idea to mix your own black for black areas because this allows for colour variation and "life".
My suggestion would be to use black in order to push other colours, whereas it is difficult to push the black itself. Here, it would probably be easier to change the amounts in your mixed black - if this makes sense.
August 16th, 2009 #12
It's just a really dark blue.
How stupid does "Never use really dark blue" sound..?
August 16th, 2009 #13