Art: ...trouble. (updated 7/15 on pg2)
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  • cool!

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Thread: ...trouble. (updated 7/15 on pg2)

  1. #1
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    ...trouble. (updated 7/15 on pg2)

    Still me playing with new software tools -- feedback is VERY welcome.

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    Last edited by jason_maranto; July 15th, 2009 at 09:50 PM.
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    same as ur Hulk piece, looks to well, 3D. thers something about it, its not real looking enought to look like a photo, and its not a painting either, so its just something inbetwean, failing at both subjects.

    not that its bad, its well just, not finnished in my opinion, good start, keep working on it dude.

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    Thanks for the feedback! I feel really good about my drawing and painting abilities so this really doesn't reflect those skills much, my goal with these last few has been to get a grip on how to make and use 3D characters.

    That said I think what I take from your post is that they need to be more realistic? Is that the render or the sculpt?

    Best,
    Jason.

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    ok cool.

    its not the render i think, its more the sculpt, its looking more like a toy then e real creature/human. about the texture, where he puts hes weight, the materials, where the seams and stitches go, how the actual clothes whould work and more stuff like that. thers for example no body hair or texture at all on his skin.

    hope that explained what I ment.

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    Yeah, thats really helpful -- I thought about those things as well and I debated with myself about things like the seams and making the fabric behave a bit more naturally but I was trying to be true to the comicbook costume which rarely has anything like that (depending on who draws him)... the thing I didn't do that I really would have liked to (as you pointed out) is the body hair. Which I simply could not figure out a satisfactory technique for -- very frustrating to not simply do what I would with paint or pencil, but I guess thats the nature of 3D, and I have to adapt.

    Best,
    Jason.

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    hehe, ok, well, the comic version is simplified in a lot of reasons. I think u can be faithfull but still add realism, cause its a different medium, every part of the design must take the same path. hers a little paintover i did, hope u dont mind.

    just some simple stuff u probebly know urself, but still, and ye, hair is a pain n the ass to do in 3D xD

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    all good points and I think your design is an improvements over the comics version -- I don't know If I would catch flack for making those changes from an editor, but I will probably modify somethings similar to your points since you saw the same things I did.

    Best,
    Jason.

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    the thing that bugs me is that he just looks like some normal dude who dressed up as wolverine for halloween(his outfit texture reminds me of those lycra suits). Not to mention hes just standing in the middle of the road on a beautiful day. Theres no real character to this model. His pose and his attitude don't remind me of wolverine.

    Try and pose him differently and add some texture like lotet was saying. That should help to make it less awkward

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    the pose is based on photos of me -- and I'm just some normal dude so thats probably why it looks normal.

    Best,
    Jason.

    Last edited by jason_maranto; July 4th, 2009 at 11:56 AM.
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    Looking at this makes me feel weird., maybee its the smoothness I dont know. I would say that his wrists seem a little bulky and he looks kind of chubby overall, though when i try to look at specific areas I can't pick them out. His mouth area looks like my neighbor hmm that is probably why it makes me feel weird. Akward halloween...

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    if you used yourself as referenze....are your hands really that small?

    and...if he have a really fitting suit there...with the material it seems to be...shouldnt be there nipples?XD i know it sounds strange...but actually he has none and thats alot more strange...

    and....i dont really think he needs hair overall....but please put some different skin colour to him^^ cause actually his lips have the same color as his general skin and thats a bit strange...^^

    and maybe close the part between behind his ear and neck....i dont know why it should be that way if you make a costume real (looking)


    AND the last thing: the ground where he is standing is not as sharp as he is^^ maybe another reason why it looks a bit unnatural^^



    but at all it looks really nice and on the first sight it looked real^^

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    Yeah I bulked up the forearms and particularly the wrists because the blades would need extra space (from a real wrist/forearm) to travel through when not out... that in turn makes the hands a bit small looking but a tightly closed fist is not a very large object in general.

    The face is directly taken from screen caps of Hugh Jackman in X-men 1 -- there is a very good reason they never used the costume in the movies and that is it is very hard to make look even remotely intimidating on a "real" person.

    Chubby?

    I really considered the nipples -- but the leather/spandex nipples combo would be too much to be taken seriously I think... I did put them in at one point but you NEVER see them in the comic.

    Yeah, trying to figure out how exactly he would put this costume on lead me to making the headpiece a separate helmet-like object -- the shirt became basically a spandex "turtleneck"... I wasn't satisfied with the solution but I couldn't come up with a better one and they have never really addressed this in the comics as far as what I've seen. One thing I was sure of was that his ears needed to be "out" -- normally you won't see his ears in the comics, they are pretty ambiguous about what exactly is going on here but part of his powers is he has enhanced senses like an animal (smell, hearing, etc.) covering his ears actually defeats the purpose of his powers... doesn't make any sense, that's nearly as bad as covering his nose.

    Not excuses, I think these are all valid crits, I just wanted to explain my thoughts and why I made the decisions I did... to see if you agree or think I was off in my judgement. This wasn't an easy thing to do by any measure and I could use all the feedback I can get.

    Bear in mind that the style I'm going for is somewhat like Alex Ross.

    Best,
    Jason.

    Last edited by jason_maranto; July 5th, 2009 at 09:24 AM.
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    i just noticed that alex ross is using maaaaaaaaaaaany wrinkles

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    boring composition, but as others said it looks to "3d generated" "plasticy" i guess you could say.

    I like the model though.


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    I uploaded small movies of the model with costume and without for those would like to see -- it may help clarify issues:

    Without Costume

    With Costume

    Best,
    Jason.

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    Not bad work. Physically what I would critique is the back of his head seems like its missing some skull. The anatomy around his shoulders and arms seems to be lacking some. His hands are turned over too much and seem a little on the small side. The pose is too straight up and down to portray the title. The usually hunched over wolvie would be better here. The anatomy of his abs is a little off as well. We don't really have 3 abs that start directly under our ribcage. The top ab kind wraps over the sternum before connecting with the rest of the abs. And lastly, he seems out of place in the environment. Middle of the street with no one around doesn't really portray trouble. The texture is done very well and the rendering on his face is nice too. The wrinkles in the cloth under his chin is a nice addition as well. Thank you for the post.

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    I don't usually do that but I disagree with just about everything on Lotet's paint over so I had to say something. The thing I agree with is, he needs body and facial hair, I mean, Wolvie is a hairy dude.

    I think the main problem is that his outfit looks painted on. It needs more folds, especially at the knees. probably a little at the waist and armholes too. There should be more at the neck because his head is turned. You have to consider that this stuff should be fairly strong so he doesn't wind up nekkid in the middle of a fight. So it would have a bit of tickness to it, the edge where the gloves end would have a sewn hem and so would his shorts. I take it his belt would be a different material (perhaps the same as his boots?) I'd also give him some scruff marks and dirt unless he gets a new outfit every week. The seams on the paint over are way too much to the front if you want to follow traditional pattern-making techniques. Eg. tight seams, or pant seams, don't run from your crotch to the top of your knees and the line of the shoulder pads seem fine to me. Boots like that usually have the zipper at the back seam but would either have a front seam or one at the ankle linking the leg part to the foot part. Wrestler boots would be a good ref.

    I don't have a problem with the pose and I really like the model. Maybe you could put some smoke coming out of buildings or something else that would give the image a sense of urgency.

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    This looks good!

    My immediate thought is that it looks like you're using HDRI or some other image-based lighting, and it's just not the best lighting solution. The image looks "realistic" but there isn't much drama there. If it were me I'd re-light it using more of the classic three-light setup and then add whatever global illumination was necessary to mesh with the background image.

    The figure looks OK. As others have noted, the costume needs to be developed a bit more so it looks like it's made of cloth with an actual thickness and not just painted on.

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    Yea.. the main problem i see is with your materials, the skin need some translucency and the fabric is too metallic turn down the specularity and play with Subsurface scattering material for the skin, also i think the back of his head needs alit bit of refinement. Good luck

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    I find some of the most realistic 3D stills are the ones with VERY high lighting contrasts. Like a torch light scene, not a mid-day street scene. Try putting him in a Metal Laboratory and having a blue light and heavy shadows?
    Good work, it's obvious you can build 3D objects.

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    I didn't read through everyone's long post so I apologize if I'm restating something.

    The thing that I think is throwing this out of realism is the complete lack of blues in the shadows on the figure. There all black. The sky is bright and sunny with little overcast and tons of bright blue yet none of that is blue is reflected on the figure. I would think that this would happen especially due to the shininess of the costume he is wearing.

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    my issue doesn't have to do with technique so much as story. Mr. Delicious nailed it, there's no drama here. That just adds to the 3D model test shot feel (as well as the uniformly crisp edge giving him a cutout quality). Superhero comics are all about action, action, action, and action. Even his mostly symmetrical pose, it's static and everyday. Give the man something to do!

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    This is so useful -- I'm taking notes and making changes... I'll have a new version soon.

    Best,
    Jason.

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    Also his mask works quite a bit differently in the comic, if that is the look you are going for (And it may help with the cosplay look) it should be a little more like this...



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    So I made some changes:

    1) Changed the headgear structure to allow for him to speak without moving the whole mask (good call lotet!) and closed the space behind the ear (as Farelle said)

    2) Changed the gloves to be more visually interesting -- not sure about them, but at least they are different.

    3) Added seams to the clothing in the proper places, using dancers spandex suits for ref:
    http://www.loisgreenfield.com/dance/...eya-Weber.html
    http://www.loisgreenfield.com/dance/...-dance-co.html
    http://www.loisgreenfield.com/dance/...-dance-co.html
    http://www.loisgreenfield.com/dance/...-dance-co.html

    4) Added emphasis to wrinkles to make them maore visible... I tend to err on the side of subtly, which often leaves the audience thinking I did nothing.

    5) Changed camera angle to add drama and sense of action.

    6) changed lighting setup to add more drama.


    The anatomy issues will have to go into the mental file and be used on the next peice as this is too much work to change for this sculpt.

    The background scene will have to be reconsidered and I'll come back to it later if you guys think the figure looks better.

    The hair is a serious challenge and in 3D usually requires a specialty package that I don't have -- there are new releases for many of the popular packages on the horizon some of which address this issue (I really like Modo's solution) and when I get my hands on them I may try to add the hair.

    Skin tones are also a major challenge in 3D and I'm still learning my way around that one... since I'm teaching myself I feel in need to focus on structure and lighting till I get those right before moving on to the little things.

    I'm trying to strike a balance between the more stylized way the character is represented in the comics and a realistic approach -- which isn't really a common combination so I think stylistcally it's just going to be an odd bird until I get a few more under my belt and figure it all out.

    Thanks to all for the feedback and feel free to chime in on the new version.

    If you'd like to see a movie of the new costume click here.

    Best,
    Jason.

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    Now that's more dynamic!



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    MUCH better!
    Now put a dead Sentinel in the background instead of a shopping mall and you've got yourself a really nice piece.

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    That's a huge improvement with just a few alterations. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to make some adjustments and repost, most people just get bummed out and drop the thread. If you could throw in a new background that would be freakin' awesome.

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  46. #29
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    well, I made a drawing from the model -- but it looks pretty different.

    Best,
    Jason.

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    hey jason, well done on the second render. i would have to agree with the aforementioned comments on the realism but to be honest the reason i clicked on the thumbnail is because i though you had done a comedy piece with wolverine. When the pic was really small it kinda looked like a really fat dude in a costume standing in broad daylight, with seemingly nothing going on and with the caption " i smell trouble" made me laugh. perhaps you could keep your new one for the realism but maybe add some comedy to your original one for a different take on the old wolfie. ??

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