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    Quote Originally Posted by Crass Patrón View Post
    There is a huge difference when we are talking about sports because they may require a set of physical characteristics that you don't possess, it will be very difficult to become a successful basketball player if you are five feet tall. Sure, becoming a good artist generally requires a few physical traits of its own, that you have eye-sight and that you are able to control your own body, specifically, but that could hardly be thought of as anything extraordinary.

    Art is not a physical skill, the amount of physical effort that goes in to a brush stroke is minimal, there is a certain element of technique to a master´s brush work, sure, but it's definitely not a skill that is unattainable by anyone´s standard.
    Not really only because we gravitate towards tasks that we believe we do well (tho spudd webb and muggsy bogues were well under 6 feet). Everyone therefore has the potential to be an artist because we all have an opposable thumb by the physical standards you are representing here. I can use non-sport related activities as well like Chess, Poker, Singing, or even Billiards to explain potential limitations in achievement.

    Representational art is about analyzing and understanding what you see and what you do, this is a mental process and cannot be compared to riding a bike or executing a slam dunk.
    Sure it can be compared in some sense...both take time, practice, and dedication to your goals. Exercising your mind to paint isn't much different that exercising your mind/body to play basketball well. If what you are saying is totally correct then there would be an amount of certainty pertaining to artistic limits. If you practice for "x"...then you will reach "x" level or proficiency...there is no guarantee in this claim.

    I do understand your point and you are correct as far as saying that the playing field is not level when talking about the physical attributes for sports versus activities of the mind for most people. Then again do we all have equal amount of chance to obtain the level of genius? Are there limits in intelligence? I believe there is but that limit isn't reached until we die.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    Not really only because we gravitate towards tasks that we believe we do well (tho spudd webb and muggsy bogues were well under 6 feet). Everyone therefore has the potential to be an artist because we all have an opposable thumb by the physical standards you are representing here. I can use non-sport related activities as well like Chess, Poker, Singing, or even Billiards to explain potential limitations in achievement.

    Representational art is about analyzing and understanding what you see and what you do, this is a mental process and cannot be compared to riding a bike or executing a slam dunk.
    Sure it can be compared in some sense...both take time, practice, and dedication to your goals. Exercising your mind to paint isn't much different that exercising your mind/body to play basketball well. If what you are saying is totally correct then there would be an amount of certainty pertaining to artistic limits. If you practice for "x"...then you will reach "x" level or proficiency...there is no guarantee in this claim.

    I do understand your point and you are correct as far as saying that the playing field is not level when talking about the physical attributes for sports versus activities of the mind for most people. Then again do we all have equal amount of chance to obtain the level of genius? Are there limits in intelligence? I believe there is.
    The thing is that there really is no 'x' proficiency, art can't be measured in terms of absolutes. A painting can be more or less realistic, but the fact that it is more or less realistic doesn't make it a better or worse painting in and of itself, it's so much more complicated than that, and to make matters worse, it's all subjective. I think it's wise to draw a line here between the arts and something like chess that has a rigid set of rules, even though I don't think some people have a natural ability to become skilled chess players either. (As for singing I don't know how it works but this may very well be a physical thing, some people have beautiful faces, others have beautiful voices? I don't know, I have neither.)

    As for intelligence playing a part it may or may or may not be, there isn't even a consensus on how intelligence can be measured so it's difficult to address this at all. There are savants that have a very low IQ but are capable of creating life drawings with machine-like accuracy for example, which might seem counter-intuitive. These are incredibly complex matters and we are nowhere near any form of definite answer. Until there actually is some kind of evidence that some people have a 'natural ability' to paint or write music or climb mountains or solve equations you are only selling yourself short by assuming that's the way it works and that you may not have been born with this particular ability. I think the fact that some people become successful painters and others become great writers and that some people don't excel at anything at all depends on other factors than inherent 'talent', things of which you are i control, at least to such an extent that you can do it if that is what you really want.

    This doesn't mean that I think that everyone starts out with the exact same prerequisite, that depends on who and where you are when you decide what you want to do, and what you have experienced and learned before, you generally don't decide that you want to become an artist at birth.



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    art is a talent... to all the people claiming theres no limit.. in one of ur winded the skys the limit bs.

    listen.. everyones brains are different, everyones talents are different.. stop saying everyones the same in this freakin politically correct world..

    lets give everyone an A for on the basket ball court when clearly some of them suck.. lets give everyone a cookie cuz were all completely equal in everything..

    eskimos are just as talented as african americans at basket ball.. samoans are better then asians at math... because despite clear statistic.. we have to be politcially correct and where all EXACTLY THE SAME...

    theres no difference between any of our 6billion.. a doctor is just as smart as an 8 time convinct for rape...

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    Hate to be the piss-off here, but THERE IS such a thing as a "genius" in art. It occurs in all other fields, so how can it not appear in art?

    You can call it "talent," "genius," a "miracle of coincidence" where everything that could happen to the high-end extreme happens to one person, or an "accident of birth/life/tangency" where the exact level of perception, skills, overwhelming interest, access to knowledge and circumstances all come together to produce a person who has a slight edge. This person(s) exists. It can't be denied. And this person(s) has a limit(s), just as every one of us does.

    Their limits may be different than with most, or so far in front of them that they die before they come to it, but the limits are there, AND they MUST work their fuckin' asses off to reach and overcome THAT limit so they can SEE THE NEXT LIMIT, just as everyone else does. The problem comes when "every one else" starts to spend their time and effort comparing themselves to the guy way in front, or tries to find shortcuts to get where (s)he is without the effort required, assuming the target is a singular "place" or limit to reach, let alone surpass.

    Let's get this to practical levels here...

    Do I know more than Jason Chan, Android and Marko (named simply as examples)? You bet your sweet fuckin' ass I do. I'm not stupid, and I've got a 30 to 40 year jump on these punks. Is there an advantage my way due to this? All things being equal, YES!

    But...are we comparing equal dedication to the same skills, specialized learning connected to a specific vertical field, and even remotely similar facility with the same media/processes/methodologies? HELL NO!

    Which proves what? Absolutely fuckin' nothin'...

    The three people I mentioned above have done, are doing, and will do things that I couldn't attempt without embarrassing myself, but the opposite is EQUALLY TRUE for my side of the equation. They and I all still have much to learn, just in different areas that we didn't have to venture into before, and this is more of a problem for me than it is for them because I have less time and a much more complex learning/unlearning experience going on than they do.

    Before we bite the big one, will EVERYONE on this forum ever achieve the incredible levels that any given "artistic god" we worship did? Get real! You believe that and you probably still believe in Santa Klause and the Tooth Faerie. There are so many things against the perfect combination of opportunities, education, level of skills, access, eat-my-own-leg-off dedication, and just plain luck coming together for every single person on this forum to achieve the level of "the gods" that the odds alone would have to violate the laws of math/physics.

    So...

    Can we all become professional artists (whatever the hell THAT means)? Technically YES, except for the percentage of assholes who'd rather whine, stay permanently drunk, get laid twice a day, and slack off to the last minute on every single thing they ever do for the rest of their pitiful lives.

    Can we all get rich and famous? We all wish. We can be successful in direct proportion to the amount of effort that we put in to it, and often that will get us money and recognition of some kind.

    Can we all be "gods" of the art world? Fuck no! (...see para above word "So...")

    Can we all be "geniuses" that will be remembered through history as inspiration to those who come after us? Again, not very fuckin' likely. If it were POSSIBLE, you could prove it to me by listing every single artist on the face of the earth who successfully earned their living through art between the years of...so...ohhh...1700 and 1800. The list should be at least a couple of yards long (at least!) unless you missed someone, or JUST didn't KNOW about them... Too hard? Do the same for the years 1900 to 2000 instead then. THAT list (due to advances in communications and literacy) should be a couple miles long probably... How easy is this?

    [PUH-leeeeeze... Don't be stupid enough to try this. It's not--NOT--possible to do, because we can't possibly know about all those people. Go draw instead.]

    Basically, we ALL can achieve the life in art we want to whatever degree we deem worth our efforts, all things being equal (excluding the idiots I mentioned above), MANY of us WILL make a mark outside our immediate circle of acquaintances, and some of us will become "gods" of our professional fields, but "geniuses"? You might be able to count them on both your hands with fingers left for future names. The odds against the perfectly balanced intelligence, perception and skill levels occurring necessary for that to happen are just mind-boggling.

    Are you depressed now? Tooooooo bad. Are you wiser now? Hopefully. Will you decide to work your fuckin' asses off now just to prove how great you are and what a mis-informed moron I am? ...hopefully.




    ...oh...and it would help if you got out of the lounge first.

    Last edited by Ilaekae; July 5th, 2009 at 11:04 PM.
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by riceface View Post
    art is a talent... to all the people claiming theres no limit.. in one of ur winded the skys the limit bs.

    listen.. everyones brains are different, everyones talents are different.. stop saying everyones the same in this freakin politically correct world..

    lets give everyone an A for on the basket ball court when clearly some of them suck.. lets give everyone a cookie cuz were all completely equal in everything..

    eskimos are just as talented as african americans at basket ball.. samoans are better then asians at math... because despite clear statistic.. we have to be politcially correct and where all EXACTLY THE SAME...

    theres no difference between any of our 6billion.. a doctor is just as smart as an 8 time convinct for rape...
    That is not what this is about at all, but there doesn't seem to be much of a point taking this any further with you, so, best of luck to you.



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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Hate to be the piss-off here, but THERE IS such a thing as a "genius" in art. It occurs in all other fields, so how can it not appear in art?

    You can call it "talent," "genius," a "miracle of coincidence" where everything that could happen to the high-end extreme happens to one person, or an "accident of birth/life/tangency" where the exact level of perception, skills, overwhelming interest, access to knowledge and circumstances all come together to produce a person who has a slight edge. This person(s) exists. It can't be denied. And this person(s) has a limit(s), just as every one of us does.

    Their limits may be different than with most, or so far in front of them that they die before they come to it, but the limits are there, AND they MUST work their fuckin' asses off to reach and overcome THAT limit so they can SEE THE NEXT LIMIT, just as everyone else does. The problem comes when "every one else" starts to spend their time and effort comparing themselves to the guy way in front, or tries to find shortcuts to get where (s)he is without the effort required, assuming the target is a singular "place" or limit to reach, let alone surpass.

    Let's get this to practical levels here...

    Do I know more than Jason Chan, Android and Marko (named simply as examples)? You bet your sweet fuckin' ass I do. I'm not stupid, and I've got a 30 to 40 year jump on these punks. Is there an advantage my way due to this? All things being equal, YES!

    But...are we comparing equal dedication to the same skills, specialized learning connected to a specific vertical field, and even remotely similar facility with the same media/processes/methodologies? HELL NO!

    Which proves what? Absolutely fuckin' nothin'...

    The three people I mentioned above have done, are doing, and will do things that I couldn't attempt without embarrassing myself, but the opposite is EQUALLY TRUE for my side of the equation. They and I all still have much to learn, just in different areas that we didn't have to venture into before, and this is more of a problem for me than it is for them because I have less time and a much more complex learning/unlearning experience going on than they do.

    Before we bite the big one, will EVERYONE on this forum ever achieve the incredible levels that any given "artistic god" we worship did? Get real! You believe that and you probably still believe in Santa Klause and the Tooth Faerie. There are so many things against the perfect combination of opportunities, education, level of skills, access, eat-my-own-leg-off dedication, and just plain luck coming together for every single person on this forum to achieve the level of "the gods" that the odds alone would have to violate the laws of math/physics.

    So...

    Can we all become professional artists (whatever the hell THAT means)? Technically YES, except for the percentage of assholes who'd rather whine, stay permanently drunk, get laid twice a day, and slack off to the last minute on every single thing they ever do for the rest of their pitiful lives.

    Can we all get rich and famous? We all wish. We can be successful in direct proportion to the amount of effort that we put in to it, and often that will get us money and recognition of some kind.

    Can we all be "gods" of the art world? Fuck no! (...see para above word "So...")

    Can we all be "geniuses" that will be remembered through history as inspiration to those who come after us? Again, not very fuckin' likely. If it were POSSIBLE, you could prove it to me by listing every single artist on the face of the earth who successfully earned their living through art between the years of...so...ohhh...1700 and 1800. The list should be at least a couple of yards long (at least!) unless you missed someone, or JUST didn't KNOW about them... Too hard? Do the same for the years 1900 to 2000 instead then. THAT list (due to advances in communications and literacy) should be a couple miles long probably... How easy is this?

    [PUH-leeeeeze... Don't be stupid enough to try this. It's not--NOT--possible to do, because we can't possibly know about all those people. Go draw instead.]

    Basically, we ALL can achieve the life in art we want to what ever degree we deem worth reaching (excluding the idiots I mentioned above), MANY of us WILL make a mark outside our immediate circle of acquaintances, and some of us will become "gods" of our professional fields, but "geniuses"? You might be able to count them on both your hands with fingers left for future names. The odds against the intelligence, perception and skill levels occurring necessary for that to happen are just mind-boggling.

    Are you depressed now? Tooooooo bad. Are you wiser now? Hopefully. Will you decide to work your fuckin' asses off now just to prove how great you are and what a mis-informed moron I am? ...hopefully.




    ...oh...and it would help if you got out of the lounge first.
    To me, this discussion isn't about making money, being remembered or being labeled a genius by others at all. It's about making great art, that doesn't guarantee you any of those things, and not making great art doesn't necessarily mean that you won't get them either...

    Even if there were a pre-defined limit for each and every person, dictating just exactly how good of an artist they can become regardless of how hard they work, I'm sure the limits people put on themselves by reinforcing those kinds of ideas hold them back even more. It's not about idealism or any sort of 'believe what you want to be true' sentiment on my part, it's a way of approaching art and learning, and it's not taken out of thin air either, the notion that there even is such a thing as talent is, on the other hand.

    I dare anyone to even define talent.

    Of course not everyone on this forum is going to become one of the greatest artists, on the contrary close to none will, and yes, it does depend on what different circumstances different people find themselves in, and yes it will probably be dependent on a bit of luck and it will be much much harder for some of us than for others but there is nothing mystical, nothing magical about it. No X factor. This is what I believe, if someone else want's to blame their failures on the 'fact' that they weren't born with Michelangelo's syndrome of the mystical art gene then I suppose that's fine, but if I don't make it, it is because I didn't work hard enough.



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    Flipping the argument on it's end, if you are an accomplished artist and you believe that this is because you have a special gift that lesser artists lack, that's just being an asshole.



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    "Flipping the argument on it's end, if you are an accomplished artist and you believe that this is because you have a special gift that lesser artists lack, that's just being an asshole."

    I would definitely agree with you. But if someone were to get that from what I wrote above, THEY would be a complete asshole.

    Do you have a sketchbook, or any art posted that would give me an idea of where you stand at this point in time in your art journey? It would give me an idea as to how to understand where you're coming from possibly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    "Flipping the argument on it's end, if you are an accomplished artist and you believe that this is because you have a special gift that lesser artists lack, that's just being an asshole."

    I would definitely agree with you. But if someone were to get that from what I wrote above, THEY would be a complete asshole.

    Do you have a sketchbook, or any art posted that would give me an idea of where you stand at this point in time in your art journey? It would give me an idea as to how to understand where you're coming from possibly...
    That comment wasn't directed at you at all, it was just a general reflection. In general I think we agree pretty much, it comes down to defining terms like genius. To me, dedicating yourself to such a degree that you achieve mastery is genius, it's also madness, but that the two walk hand in hand isn't really a new notion. Luck is involved to a degree, but most people have the ability to change their situation to favor their own development as artists if they really want to do that, even if some people are less fortunate and will have a harder time doing this.

    I don't have a sketchbook yet, there is a thread in the educations board about me studying on my own but I really don't see how my current skill level would have anything to do with the validity of my arguments or my standpoint on this issue.



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    Talent might not be the end all and be all but I definitely believe some people have the intuitive nature of it down better and faster than others. In my circle of artist friends, one of us I believe is naturally gifted. While I and the others have had to attend art classes from early on to now to grasp the basic fundamentals, this young man in our group was already ahead of us about 10-14 years back. He'd never taken classes before. He just drew for fun and out of imagination but he already got down perspective, anatomy, environments, etc. while the rest of us needed references and plenty of studying just to nail it.

    As a result, he's already ahead of us in his career as a professional. While he does have his down days, even his worst stuff looks stellar to us. A college art education simply gave him even more tools and techniques to bolster his natural ability. My brother, who started out way later than me, grasps certain aspects faster than I do. He doesn't even crack open the Bridgman - he just gets it from looking and observing all the time. Me - I need everything.

    So yes, there are different rates of learning and absorption of knowledge. Talent isn't everything to determine success but combined with hard work, it sure advances certain people ahead of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShroudStar View Post
    Talent might not be the end all and be all but I definitely believe some people have the intuitive nature of it down better and faster than others. In my circle of artist friends, one of us I believe is naturally gifted. While I and the others have had to attend art classes from early on to now to grasp the basic fundamentals, this young man in our group was already ahead of us about 10-14 years back. He'd never taken classes before. He just drew for fun and out of imagination but he already got down perspective, anatomy, environments, etc. while the rest of us needed references and plenty of studying just to nail it.

    As a result, he's already ahead of us in his career as a professional. While he does have his down days, even his worst stuff looks stellar to us. A college art education simply gave him even more tools and techniques to bolster his natural ability. My brother, who started out way later than me, grasps certain aspects faster than I do. He doesn't even crack open the Bridgman - he just gets it from looking and observing all the time. Me - I need everything.

    So yes, there are different rates of learning and absorption of knowledge. Talent isn't everything to determine success but combined with hard work, it sure advances certain people ahead of the game.
    But is his gift that he is a great artist, or a great learner?



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    Both? He's a natural learner without the academic back-up that most of us needed or already had. No one else in our group can say the same. We still need to pencil in perspective lines, especially if we try making comics. He doesn't and it still looks natural. I can't argue with that.

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    I find it difficult to talk about limits to artistic ability, because art isn't something that is easily quantifiable. Once you get to a certain level of accomplishment, it isn't lack of ability or skill that "limits" an artist. Rather, it is the very subject/content of the piece of art that the artist is using his/her artistic ability to create.

    Once you get to certain point of skill, how can you say that one skillfully painted painting is any better than another of the same quality? Is the one piece of art more beautiful than the other? How can beauty be quantified? How can someone say that Rembrandt is better than Sargent is better than Velazquez? When it comes to that level of skill, I think aesthetic tastes and opinions determine what is a "better" painting more than anything.

    So, for new and budding artists (like myself, and others) I guess you can talk about improving speed, limits, and such, but when you get to a certain point, doesn't it become arbitrary? Granted, even pros are still improving and striving to get better, but I think at that level, it's not so much skill or talent that is the "limit" but rather what to paint?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShroudStar View Post
    Both? He's a natural learner without the academic back-up that most of us needed or already had. No one else in our group can say the same. We still need to pencil in perspective lines, especially if we try making comics. He doesn't and it still looks natural. I can't argue with that.
    Good for him, but it doesn't mean that the rest of you can't become as good, or better artists. The fact that people learn at different paces and by different methods is difficult to argue against, it is quite obviously so.



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    "But is his gift that he is a great artist, or a great learner?"

    Why would it matter? Unless we can prove that one of these just can't possibly exist with positive evidence, aren't they just two sides to the same coin?

    Have you ever met someone who never saw or held an artist's brush in their hands before, but when presented with one, simply went through what they thought was the logical process with pigments and an appropriate tool, with surprisingly good results? I know at least three people who actually did this. One of them was quite skilled with a pencil, but basically stuck to line without shading, so the concept of volume, shading, etc., were a totally new concept to them. Before someone tries to explain it away by claiming exposure to magazines, school, or TV, I'd like to point out that all three were Appalachian 12-13-year-olds who had never attended formal school or traveled, and were nearly illiterate (very early 60s--northern Cambria County, Pennsylvania).

    [ADD] Please note here that I'm not necessarily agreeing with your use of "great" above. I'd rather say "natural" for want of a better term.

    Last edited by Ilaekae; July 6th, 2009 at 12:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crass Patrón View Post
    Good for him, but it doesn't mean that the rest of you can't become as good, or better artists. The fact that people learn at different paces and by different methods is difficult to argue against, it is quite obviously so.
    Of course I'm not saying that, but we'll hit his level much later than he did. That's a fact and he's already making another headway that shoots him above us again. Some people just have that intuitiveness. If I can compare that to something else not art, my brother loves playing 2D fighting games. He can simply watch a combo vid, see the combo done, and immediately memorize it in his head and apply it to gameplay. It's gotten to the point where his friends, going by Naruto, said that he has the "Sharingen" eye. He gets it that fast. Of course, playing games isn't the same as art, but some people just can immediately understand what's been put in front of them. Others can't or do so at a much slower pace.

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    Sorry, overlooked this...

    "It's about making great art,..."

    That statement is why I asked what I did. I was a professional instructor for 17 years, and seeing people's work can often give me a clue to how well they are advancing and sometimes how intuitive they might be in adapting to new information. It lets me see your thought process in a very rudimentary sense. Sorry if I made you feel you had to defend yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    "But is his gift that he is a great artist, or a great learner?"

    Why would it matter? Unless we can prove that one of these just can't possibly exist with positive evidence, aren't they just two sides to the same coin?

    Have you ever met someone who never saw or held an artist's brush in their hands before, but when presented with one, simply went through what they thought was the logical process with pigments and an appropriate tool, with surprisingly good results? I know at least three people who actually did this. One of them was quite skilled with a pencil, but basically stuck to line without shading, so the concept of volume, shading, etc., were a totally new concept to them. Before someone tries to explain it away by claiming exposure to magazines, school, or TV, I'd like to point out that all three were Appalachian 12-13-year-olds who had never attended formal school or traveled, and were nearly illiterate (very early 60s--northern Cambria County, Pennsylvania).
    I don't think they are the same thing because if there were such a thing as an artist's gift, someone who has it would be able to make greater art than someone who has not. That some people learn much faster than others is not a secret, but it only means that they get to a higher level more quickly. I'm not denying the fact that there are child prodigies or people who present enormous skill in their respective field very quickly, but the fact that these people exist does not mean that other people cannot create art that is just as good, it will take longer, but in the end it comes down to what bandaidboy12 was talking about, how do you even determine what is better at the level of the masters?

    I suppose if we by some alien technology were able to objectively determine what is better art, it could be proven that some people are better artists and that this is linked in some way to their genetic or psychological markup but as you see this is getting very ridiculous. My point remains that the notion that there would be some identifiable point beyond which a normal person can't advance, but 'gifted' people may exceed seems completely unfounded.



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    All skills being equal, with or without identical methods of education, would you accept that there are some people who have the ability to convey/communicate/depict a level of "life" or "meaning" in a piece of art that others do not, and this may account for why there is an apparent small group of artists/musicians/writers/sculptors who are recognized as "talented" or "geniuses" in their creative field?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    All skills being equal, with or without identical methods of education, would you accept that there are some people who have the ability to convey/communicate/depict a level of "life" or "meaning" in a piece of art that others do not, and this may account for why there is an apparent small group of artists/musicians/writers/sculptors who are recognized as "talented" or "geniuses" in their creative field?
    Yes, but I think this is because these people have a combination of experiences and attitudes that shine through in their work. This is something completely different because you have influence over who you are and what you choose to experience and learn, it's not something assigned to you at birth like your shoe size or the color of your eyes. There is no gene that will give you an idea for a painting or a great story for a novel, these are things that you find within yourself as you experience life.



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    Agree. Done.

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    "The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible."

    Arthur C. Clarke




    "The superior man is distressed by the limitations of his ability; he is not distressed by the fact that men do not recognize the ability that he has."

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    This is actually a very interesting topic.

    I personally think, before you begin to talk about limits.

    What kind of limits are we talking about?

    There is something called "Talent" or "Gift".

    Everyone has it, but not in drawing/painting. It can be anything.

    Someone has the talent/gift to become a great pilot. Another in being a master of many languages. Another in being a great writer. Another in being a great musician. Another being a carpenter, mechanic, engineer and whatnot.

    I don't believe that there are 'no limits' and everyone can be anything they want to be. Everyone has a limit. If you like it or not.

    Example, I always wanted to be a jetfighter pilot. Unfortunately genetic circumstances interfered with my dream and I ended up being 1.93cm (absolute max. length for pilot), having a long neck (combined with max. length not being able to withstand the high G-forces) and my hearing not being high enough to pass the tests. (Im not deaf, but test req's are very very high demanding).

    There is in no way I can make myself shorter, cut away my long neck and look at the sky and ask some supernatural being to magically improve my hearing, so I can pass the tests and become a pilot.

    So, you are forced to give up that dream and start looking for another. That is called being realistic, don't waste your life and move on in a different direction.

    ---------

    Morale if this story. I think this applies to everything. Even the ability to draw/paint.

    If lack the talent, touch or feel for drawing... no matter how hard you try... you will end up being stuck with the drawing skills of a 6-year old.

    And then you will have to ask yourself the realistic question: Is this really what I want? Or am I going to waste my life pursuing a goal I will never reach?

    I could have moved to another country, where the tests are less, become a pilot there... then pull some high G's, pass out in mid air and then ultimately crash to my death.

    --------

    And sure, there is something called will power and determination. But it can only help you just that much along the way. The talent, the touch, the feel for drawing/painting still needs to be there from the start. Even if it's hidden and not directly noticable at the beginning.

    --------

    I personally think, that the real question in this topic is. What do I want to do? What goal do I have in mind?

    Do I just want to just have fun, draw whenever I can and pursue it as a hobby?

    Or do I want to become a professional artist and make a living out of it?


    For the first, everyone can pursue that and have fun in their own way.

    The latter however.... there another very important factor that comes into play and that is something you CANNOT learn! : IMAGINATION and IMPROVISATION.

    You might not believe it, but there are plenty of unfortunate people that don't have an imagination.

    And without it.... well pretty much forget in becoming a professional artist.

    -----------------

    In the end. Everyone has a talent. It might just not be drawing/painting.

    That's life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeroKane View Post
    This is actually a very interesting topic.

    I personally think, before you begin to talk about limits.

    What kind of limits are we talking about?

    There is something called "Talent" or "Gift".

    Everyone has it, but not in drawing/painting. It can be anything.

    Someone has the talent/gift to become a great pilot. Another in being a master of many languages. Another in being a great writer. Another in being a great musician. Another being a carpenter, mechanic, engineer and whatnot.

    I don't believe that there are 'no limits' and everyone can be anything they want to be. Everyone has a limit. If you like it or not.

    Example, I always wanted to be a jetfighter pilot. Unfortunately genetic circumstances interfered with my dream and I ended up being 1.93cm (absolute max. length for pilot), having a long neck (combined with max. length not being able to withstand the high G-forces) and my hearing not being high enough to pass the tests. (Im not deaf, but test req's are very very high demanding).

    There is in no way I can make myself shorter, cut away my long neck and look at the sky and ask some supernatural being to magically improve my hearing, so I can pass the tests and become a pilot.

    So, you are forced to give up that dream and start looking for another. That is called being realistic, don't waste your life and move on in a different direction.

    ---------

    Morale if this story. I think this applies to everything. Even the ability to draw/paint.

    If lack the talent, touch or feel for drawing... no matter how hard you try... you will end up being stuck with the drawing skills of a 6-year old.

    And then you will have to ask yourself the realistic question: Is this really what I want? Or am I going to waste my life pursuing a goal I will never reach?

    I could have moved to another country, where the tests are less, become a pilot there... then pull some high G's, pass out in mid air and then ultimately crash to my death.

    --------

    And sure, there is something called will power and determination. But it can only help you just that much along the way. The talent, the touch, the feel for drawing/painting still needs to be there from the start. Even if it's hidden and not directly noticable at the beginning.

    --------

    I personally think, that the real question in this topic is. What do I want to do? What goal do I have in mind?

    Do I just want to just have fun, draw whenever I can and pursue it as a hobby?

    Or do I want to become a professional artist and make a living out of it?


    For the first, everyone can pursue that and have fun in their own way.

    The latter however.... there another very important factor that comes into play and that is something you CANNOT learn! : IMAGINATION and IMPROVISATION.

    You might not believe it, but there are plenty of unfortunate people that don't have an imagination.

    And without it.... well pretty much forget in becoming a professional artist.

    -----------------

    In the end. Everyone has a talent. It might just not be drawing/painting.

    That's life.
    I don't want to be having a go, but this whole idea of the inherent talent, some people become good at this and that and others at something else, where does it even come from? How have you arrived at this conclusion? Obviously in the end some people will end up as one ting or another since there is no time in life to be good at everything, but from where comes this notion that your final skill level is pre-determined? Is there anything observable in the universe what so ever that even suggests this? Yes there can be physical limitations, someone who is blind and paralyzed won't become as good of a portrait painter as John Singer Sargent but this is very far beside the point, it's taking it into extremes where argument becomes redundant. Is it a religious thing to believe in this mystical talent element to the human mind? If it's not, then it can be researched and defined at some point, so what do you propose that it actually is?

    It seems to me this is just a thing people say because it's what they have been taught, it's what I got hammered into my head when I was younger as well but as I've started to think more about it it just seems ridiculous. I understand perfectly well why an idea like this runs rampant, it's convenient both ways because if you want to acquire a skill but ultimately fail you deduct that it's because you didn't have the required talent and so it wasn't your fault, and on the other hand if you do believe you have the talent, then maybe you won't have to work as hard?

    I'm sorry you couldn't become a pilot, but it is also beside the point because as I said, I don't think something that requires a very specific physique is really comparable to art in a broad sense.



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    There's a lot of debate over whether or not you can excel at something if you really love it and apply yourself... but, all I know is, the closest thing I have to a talent or gift is in the arts. I do not excel at anything else at that same magnitude.

    I don't know if it has to do with some sort of mystical talent or some favor over one hemisphere of my brain over another (I excel in the sciences also, but not in the math as much (as in, I don't drool on myself and beat my head into the concrete over doing advanced math, but I'm no genius))

    Either way, I'm nowhere near as good as the greats or even some of the people here that are younger than me. I admittedly am making up for some lost time and am just now finding my niche and focus. I look now at an El Coro painting and no longer feel disappointment that I am not like him, but feel secure in knowing that one day, perhaps I could find my own niche in that regard.

    However, I am one to believe that one's own self confidence and esteem has to do quite a bit with one's limitations and cap in ability and perhaps enjoyment. I do not set limits for myself, only goals; and I can already see my skills improve with leaps and bounds, my imagination re-awaken from the dead sleep it was in.

    Perhaps everyone does have one final plateau. Perhaps...but if I continue on with a focus like that in mind, I might just fulfill my own prophecy and hit it. The day I said "I'll never be good enough" was the day I wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riceface View Post
    there is a limit! or else there would be a billion michaelango's right now.. at least i know my limit.. doesn't mean i wont keep trying...

    everyones brain is different.. and u aint gonna be as good as someone who is considered a genius

    but there is a way to work around it.. is create ur own unique style thats fresh.. and u wont have to paint like a photo
    What are you on about? People make their own limits. You know your limits because you're limiting yourself, unless someone's dead there's no way they know their limit unless they just goof off and limit themself from not drawing, painting, etc.

    I was born with 0 talent, not even stick figures, I'm still terrible but I'm not gonna go around saying I know my limits. Sure, some people are born more gifted than others, understanding stuff better, but that's definitly not everyone. If anything I was born with a bit of knowledge on how to grasp what I see, and that's not even good.

    You really don't know your limits, you're going to keep trying, meaning you're making your OWN limit. If my right hand got cut off, does that mean I'm at my limit? Of course not, I have a perfectly fine left hand that I can learn with. If my left hand fell off? I have two feet, I have a mouth. Limits are made because a person wishes those limits to be made, or they're just incapable of moving their body.

    There's always something new to learn. Time moves on, new techniques are developed, new artists are born.

    People make excuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crass Patrón View Post
    I don't want to be having a go, but this whole idea of the inherent talent, some people become good at this and that and others at something else, where does it even come from? How have you arrived at this conclusion? Obviously in the end some people will end up as one ting or another since there is no time in life to be good at everything, but from where comes this notion that your final skill level is pre-determined? Is there anything observable in the universe what so ever that even suggests this? Yes there can be physical limitations, someone who is blind and paralyzed won't become as good of a portrait painter as John Singer Sargent but this is very far beside the point, it's taking it into extremes where argument becomes redundant. Is it a religious thing to believe in this mystical talent element to the human mind? If it's not, then it can be researched and defined at some point, so what do you propose that it actually is?

    It seems to me this is just a thing people say because it's what they have been taught, it's what I got hammered into my head when I was younger as well but as I've started to think more about it it just seems ridiculous. I understand perfectly well why an idea like this runs rampant, it's convenient both ways because if you want to acquire a skill but ultimately fail you deduct that it's because you didn't have the required talent and so it wasn't your fault, and on the other hand if you do believe you have the talent, then maybe you won't have to work as hard?

    I'm sorry you couldn't become a pilot, but it is also beside the point because as I said, I don't think something that requires a very specific physique is really comparable to art in a broad sense.
    Where (inheritant) talent comes from?

    It's there. It's been proven over and over and over.

    I am sorry, but under wich rock have you been hiding all your life?

    Talent or people with a gift. That's for real and it exists.

    I know musical talent runs in my family. And I have the ability to pick up things real quick and being able to become good at something if I go for it.

    As example, I picked up DJ'ing. Have a passion for house music. And within 2 years I was playing in the biggest clubs and parties on Holland and beyond. Unfortunately economic recession pretty much killed the whole scene (and I was happy to still have my full time IT job). Nonetheless I enjoyed the few years of fame. Nothing can take that experience away from me and I never regret pursuing it and trying it out.

    So you see. I sertainly believe that sertain talents (or gifts for that matter) can be inherited.

    Just go back to your school time. At least I can go back.

    There were students that could read everything just once and get A grades over and over and pass with a breeze.

    While on the other hands there were students that read and read and read and read over and over and over again. Blood, sweat and tears. They worked their asses off.... and yet they keep getting F's or maybe an E if they were lucky.

    IQ rating ringing a bell perhaps?

    The human brain is a complex thing. Little is still known.

    It's the same with art. Plenty of people try and try and try and try.

    Should you give up? Ofcourse not!

    You might not make it to a professional level and make a living out of it. But it doesn't mean you can enjoy it as a nice hobby.

    Next to that, there are plenty of limits and barriers in something called Real Life that interfere with what you can achieve as well.

    It all depends on wich point of life you are.

    If you are a young kid. You have a whole life ahead of you. Still all the choices to make and the freedom to make those choices.

    Me for example, I was really good at art subject back at school. But ultimately I chose a different path. As I thought it was safer and more future proof (IT professional).

    Now I am 32, nearly 33, have a wonderful girlfriend, we just bought a house and I have a good solid job.

    It means I have a mortage and bills to pay. So I can't just decide to quit my job to pursue the idea of a (want to be) professional artist all the sudden. Ruining my girlfriend's life in the process.

    Those a realistic limits you deal with in life. Not something you can just wave away.

    Do I give up? No ofcourse not. I draw and paint whenever I have time. I haven't done it for over 10 years. I missed it and decided to pick it up again.
    Being an IT professional, I am a total NOOB when it comes to digital painting.

    I enjoy it in my spare time. As a hobby. That is all there is for me. At least for now.

    Jer

    Last edited by GuillermoBarrancos; July 6th, 2009 at 04:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeroKane View Post
    Where (inheretant) talent comes from?

    It's there. It's been proven over and over and over.

    I am sorry, but under wich rock have you been hiding all your life?

    Talent or people with a gift. That's for real and it exists.

    Just go back to your school time. At least I can go back.

    There were students that could read everything just once and get A grades over and over and pass with a breeze.

    While on the other hands there were students that read and read and read and read over and over and over again. Blood, sweat and tears. They worked their asses off.... and yet they keep getting F's or maybe an E if they were lucky.

    IQ rating ringing a bell perhaps?

    The human brain is a complex thing. Little is still known.

    It's the same with art. Plenty of people try and try and try and try.

    Should you give up? Ofcourse not!

    You might not make it to a professional level and make a living out of it. But it doesn't mean you can enjoy it as a nice hobby.

    Next to that, there are plenty of limits and barriers in something called Real Life that interfere with what you can achieve as well.

    It all depends on wich point of life you are.

    If you are a young kid. You have a whole life ahead of you. Still all the choices to make and the freedom to make those choices.

    Me for example, I was really good at art subject back at school. But ultimately I chose a different path. As I thought it was safer and more future proof (IT professional).

    Now I am 32, nearly 33, have a wonderful girlfriend, we just bought a house and I have a good solid job.

    It means I have a mortage and bills to pay. So I can't just decide to quit my job and decide to pursue the idea of an artist all the sudden. Ruining my girlfriend's life in the process.

    Those a realistic limits you deal with in life. Not something you can just wave away.

    Do I give up? No ofcourse not. I draw and paint whenever I have time. I haven't done it for over 10 years. I missed it and decided to pick it up again.
    Being an IT professional, I am a total NOOB when it comes to digital painting.

    I enjoy it in my spare time. As a hobby. That is all there is for me. At least for now.

    Jer
    There are people who are more intelligent than others, people who learn more efficiently than others, I agree, but why wouldn't someone who learns at an average pace be able to achieve the same level of mastery in painting? Where is the evidence that shows that great painters were born to be great painters, and that their skill would be unattainable by normal people regardless of how much they practice? I don't believe you have this evidence, or that this has been proven at all.

    Does IQ have something to do with it? Yes and no. I don't think you can draw a conclusion that out of a hundred art students the one with the highest IQ will become the best painter, or the one with the lowest will become the worst. Looking at savants like this on may wonder whether it has any bearing at all. Savants typically have very low IQ, about 50% of the average, but may show extraordinary skill like this.

    Your social situation has a lot to do with whether you become a good artist or not, if, like you, one finds himself in a situation where it is very difficult to dedicate oneself to an art form it will be difficult to excel at it but this hasn't got anything to do with the issue either, since you are in this position because of choices you have made, not because you were born that way (unless we go into determinist philosophy...)

    Edit: Also, I'm bailing out of this discussion now because I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I don't think I can make my point much clearer.

    Last edited by Crass; July 6th, 2009 at 04:54 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crass Patrón View Post
    There are people who are more intelligent than others, people who learn more efficiently than others, I agree, but why wouldn't someone who learns at an average pace be able to achieve the same level of mastery in painting? Where is the evidence that shows that great painters were born to be great painters, and that their skill would be unattainable by normal people regardless of how much they practice? I don't believe you have this evidence, or that this has been proven at all.
    Yes, someone that is lucky to be more intelligent (or just having the gift to pick up things very quickly) will learn a lot quicker and excell in something a lot faster.

    And ofcourse someone with an average pace (basically the vast majority of people) can attain a high master level too. It takes longer. Sure.

    But there are also plenty of people that are less fortunate and are just not able to pick up and excell in sertain areas (incl. art). No matter how hard they try and how long they try.

    And then it's not fair to give those people false hope and let them waste their life trying to achieve something that is clearly out of their reach.
    They would be better off trying to find something else in wich they can excell and ultimately enjoy and so make better out of their lives.

    Does IQ have something to do with it? Yes and no. I don't think you can draw a conclusion that out of a hundred art students the one with the highest IQ will become the best painter, or the one with the lowest will become the worst. Looking at savants like this on may wonder whether it has any bearing at all. Savants typically have very low IQ, about 50% of the average, but may show extraordinary skill like this.
    Awesome video. And yes Savants are a very good example of people that might look severely mentallity challenged to the outside world, but are very well able to excell in one single subject.

    In this case. This savant has the gift/ability of photographic memory and translating it to a canvas.


    Your social situation has a lot to do with whether you become a good artist or not, if, like you, one finds himself in a situation where it is very difficult to dedicate oneself to an art form it will be difficult to excel at it but this hasn't got anything to do with the issue either, since you are in this position because of choices you have made, not because you were born that way (unless we go into determinist philosophy...)

    Edit: Also, I'm bailing out of this discussion now because I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I don't think I can make my point much clearer.
    Yes ofcourse my social situation are choices I made in life.

    Just like everyone else makes his/her choices in life and so face different kind of barriers and limits.

    Jer

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    Of course there's a limit to everyone's ability. There's a limit to pretty much everything.

    Just like physical resources, mental resources are not infinite, because they're don't have physical form people tend to believe they're mystical and special, they're not. And everyone has different limits. Think about cars, different cars have different top speeds, a Ford Expedition would NEVER be faster than a Porsche Carrera GT no matter how many times they would race or how hard the guy in the Ford would stomp the gas pedal.

    Yeah i know what you're gonna say, "you can upgrade the Ford's engine...bla bla bla". Nothing you can do to it would make that much of a difference except replacing the engine. That's equivalent to a brain transplant, something you just can't have.

    The thing is, why the hell is the Ford racing anyway? It wasn't built for that, it was built for carrying people, carrying lots of crap in the back and off-roading, thing it does very well. And that's what it should be doing.

    Just because you can't draw it doesn't mean you suck as a human being.

    Look for something you CAN do, instead of chasing something you can't.

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