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Thread: Pride Parade Hate Mail

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    I'm going to offend someone I know, but what do you expect living in Texas, or America for that matter?
    I mean this in the calmest, most rational sense, it's not about picking on you. But aren't those kinds of generalizations and stereotypes the problem? Isn't that the problem with the letter in the first place? A few fringe extremists can't be what you base your understanding of an entire group on (apply this to your view of Texas/America, apply this to Western views on the Mid-East and vice versa, etc.) I live in an open, friendly neighborhood that also happens to be rife with arts and culture and a proud gay community, and yes, it happens to be in Texas. I am a Texan, I am not a mindless, extremist moron, I am not sure I even know any people like that. Just like I have yet to meet a homosexual I felt was predatory or dangerous, neither should predatory behavior and sexual orientation be assumed to be in any way connected. Kind of like how someone shouldn't assume that being an idiot and a Texan are mutually exclusive. And by lumping people into dismissible groups you don't respect, aren't we allowing the hate to perpetuate and fueling the extremist fires?

    Last edited by JessiBean; June 25th, 2009 at 11:56 AM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwolf29a View Post
    Of course, I won't be appearing in anything pink!!! LOL

    Pink is a perfectly manly colour


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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwolf29a View Post
    But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!
    I think gay pride exists more to do with how homosexuality has been perceived and treated in the past as opposed to just an excuse for people to act all "woo, I'm gay!" - not so much pride for the sake of it, just pride as opposed to being ashamed. It has been illegal, a supposed reason for bullying and hate crimes and so on (and still is, sadly) whereas heterosexuality has always been unquestioned and 'safe'. There hasn't really been anywhere near the same level of trials or suffering there to warrant a self-congratulatory parade.

    I do see where you're coming from though. I'd personally like to see it just become a celebration of sexuality in general, something for people who are comfortable not only with their own orientation but everyone else's too. It's a little too black and white at the moment.

     

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    The letter itself doesn't bother me as I see it as free speech. However, it is illegal to put things in someone's mailbox unless you are a postal worker, as it is considered tampering with their mail.

     

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    Yes, Missile, I agree. Ultimately, I think it's all about being comfortable in your own skin, so to speak. And, I would welcome that kind of celebration. I understand why they have these sort of thing. Heck, all groups seem to have something. And, unfortunately, it always angers someone.

    My take on the whole thing is tolerance, more than anything else. I'm not going to change, nor do I want to for that matter, any one who believes anything that I don't believe in or anything I'm not, if that makes any sense. I guess it's like this for me: I have my own set of beliefs, thoughts, orientations, etc. I don't expect anyone else to follow, exactly, in my footsteps. Heck, my footsteps are what got me where I am today, and made me who I am. So, anyone following in my footsteps would end like me...scary, huh? LOL But, I do expect a certain level of tolerance. We're all human beings after all. And if I don't follow your beliefs or what ever, I would respect you no less...so why would anyone respect me less? I just hate it when people throw anything up in other people's face like this. To me, this is clearly a hate thing, which I don't follow.

    Here in Green Bay, we don't have (to my knowledge) a large homosexual population. But, we do have a large religious population. And some of the things they do around here in the name of religion amazes me. So, in some ways I understand where homosexuals are coming, even if I can't walk in their shoes. I'm not main stream religion follower, so often I am made to feel inferior by some people, when all I am looking for, and I think all that homosexuals are looking for, is a tiny bit of tolerance and acceptance.

    Hell, the world could use a lot more tolerance of others, period.

    I'll use the classic line here to end this post...

    "Can't we just all get along?"

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    I wish there was a straight pride day so i could dress up in gaudy costumes and prance about! ^^
    The beauty of gay pride parades (at least where I'm from) is anyone can join, even the straight people. So you can dress gaudy and join the fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostValkyrie View Post
    You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays.
    An mentioned previously, gay pride is all about accepting all orientations not about excluding heteros. You can assume than all other parades are straight by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostValkyrie View Post
    Case in particular - Gay marriage. Marriage is a religious function/function of belief. Therefore if a religious institution chooses to wed same-sex couples, it can't be denied that practice by the government as it is a factor of inalienable rights you are born with. Even is marriage is to be a state factor or turns back to roots outside the state; I don't see any reason two adults capable of taking care of themselves should be denied marriage to one another.

    However, your major road block in that is state involvement in marriage. Not to mention everybody is under the impression they're given rights by the government, majority rule/vote or the constitution. People shouldn't beg and plea for rights, they should assert them.
    It's easy to say that you are married and to wear a ring, but what about insurance benefits and taxes? If marriage has nothing to do with the state, how come hetero couples have some LEGAL rights that gay couples don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by JessiBean View Post
    And by lumping people into dismissible groups you don't respect, aren't we allowing the hate to perpetuate and fueling the extremist fires?
    I'm not making light of what you are saying because it's true. But didn't your coworkers shoot at you with a BB gun? Never heard of that outside of Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missile View Post
    I do see where you're coming from though. I'd personally like to see it just become a celebration of sexuality in general, something for people who are comfortable not only with their own orientation but everyone else's too. It's a little too black and white at the moment.
    Quoted for truth. And gay pride parades will have a reason to be as long as this goes on:
    The sodomy laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable. However, some states still attempt to enforce their laws. Virginia, Oklahoma, and North Carolina. The U.S. Military enforces its sodomy regulation without regard to Lawrence.

    Source: http://www.sodomylaws.org/

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune View Post
    I'm not making light of what you are saying because it's true. But didn't your coworkers shoot at you with a BB gun? Never heard of that outside of Texas.
    Hahaha... true. But that may have alot to do with strange characters who work in the game industry, too

     

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    One of the reasons we have Gay Pride Marches and not Straight Pride Marches is 'straight' people have not been killed, beaten up, oppressed and treated as subhuman for most of history. But hey, if someone wants to organise it, why not!

     

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune View Post

    It's easy to say that you are married and to wear a ring, but what about insurance benefits and taxes? If marriage has nothing to do with the state, how come hetero couples have some LEGAL rights that gay couples don't?

    I don't have any insurance. So count me out of your quick typed statistic.
    I thought I stated to get the state out of this practice. Though I'm not religious at all, I see this practice as a form of personal belief. There's always common law, in which people can be married without having the license thus not taking part in the almost non-existent tax breaks everyone says people get. The only real tax break I've noticed for married couples is when one is a student and entirely dependent on the other's income.

    If it didn't boil down to getting tax breaks, and was really about simply being married to someone you love this wouldn't be an issue. People would be fighting for marriage, and fighting to get the state out of these affairs. But people tend to prefer to have their rights handed to them(meaning they can be just as easily taken away in the fine print) than to take a stand for them.

    Marriage shouldn't be a facilitation of the state. The only time I see the state being involved in marriage should be if a crime is committed against a party. Such as when certain religions forcefully marry young children to adults fully aware of their actions, marriage being foisted upon a young couple because of their parents beliefs, etc. Pretty much the state is to be ensuring people have their freedom, not seeking to destroy it. You're making something out of my post that didn't exist. Go back through time and you'll see I've supported gay rights. Not because they're gay rights, but because they're rights that we all have/should have. If someone else rights are illegally or forcibly infringed upon; It effects me.

    I take freedom very seriously. It's not just some excuse I use to beg the government for entitlements/hand-outs like others.

    Also - How can you assume that because a parade isn't specifically intended for gay pride that it's heterosexual? I'm sure homosexuals and lesbians take part in other displays of celebration/protest next to heterosexuals. I don't agree with a previous poster's idea of having a straight pride parade, but I don't agree with many pride parades because there is a tendency for self-segregation due to the people creating collectives in our society. But, it's a freedom we have and it shouldn't go to waste. So I say do what you do.
    Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems you're creating an example of the Us/them mentality prevalent in group-thinking I was talking about.

     

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    I can just imagine the person who typed that letter sitting inside fuming whilst everyone else is outside having a good time. Still, there's an upside - I guess (s)he could take the opportunity to brush up on their written language skills.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostValkyrie View Post
    Marriage is a religious function/function of belief.
    Nope, there are two institutions of marriage. Legal definition and religious definition. One is a pretty ceremony, one is a legal contract between two people. No one cares about the religious part because this is supposed to be a secular country, not one run by people who believe in a giant invisible man. Of course you can't tell those of "faith" about that because they're too busy thinking that law and religious scripture are one in the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katfayheirti View Post
    Pink is a perfectly manly colour
    Exactly!

    In almost every culture, one stereotype emerges: pink is associated with girls, blue with boys. Unfortunately, there is no consensus of opinion on its origin.


    According to Jean Heifetz, for centuries, all European children were dressed in blue because the color was associated with the Virgin Mary. The use of pink and blue emerged at the turn of the century, the rule being pink for boys, blue for girls. Since pink was a stronger color it was best suited for boys; blue was more delicate and dainty and best for girls. And in 1921, the Women's Institute for Domestic Science in Pennsylvania endorsed pink for boys, blue for girls. (When Blue Meant Yellow. pp. 20 -21)

    One could argue that contemporary color symbolism confirms these associations. Blue is considered a calm, passive color, hence feminine. Red (pink derived from red) is considered active hence masculine.
    Putting the gender role stuff aside, it puts a decent arguement for Pink being acceptable.

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    Sorry to add to this derail... but I've got to second Buckwiesel...

    Marriage is not and never has been only a religious function. And the legal implications involve a LOT more than just tax breaks.

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    I'm pretty sure Peter is right in that it's actually illegal to place things in other people's mailboxes if you're not a letter carrier. If someone went around stuffing these into your mailbox with actually mailing they've committed a federal crime as that's considered to be mail tampering.

    As far the hate...it's sad, and it's even sadder, and more repugnant that hate can be disguised as something as innocent seeming as caring for children, and reinforced by the followers of a God who supposedly loves everyone. I agree with those who've said it's free speech though. The nice thing is a lot of the time if someone is going to spew that much hate often they do a good job of showing their true colors.

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  18. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    Nope, there are two institutions of marriage. Legal definition and religious definition. One is a pretty ceremony, one is a legal contract between two people. No one cares about the religious part because this is supposed to be a secular country, not one run by people who believe in a giant invisible man.
    True. But the state only has as much room to decide who is married as people allow them to. Like I said, there's no real reason for having the tax breaks as there usually isn't a tax break, unless certain specifications apply to the couple. Such as one of them being unemployed and/or a full time student and other crap.

    The state should have minimal involvement in marriage, with reference to infringement upon one or both party's rights, crimes committed and civil disputes (in this matter being breach of contract...which is also a crime.). Sorry I didn't cover the last one in my previous post.

    In some states verbal contracts are legal and withstanding. Meaning that when vows are taken, the two have knowingly entered in a binding contract. Others with out this go with paperwork. When you have a certificate stating you are married and you have both signed the forms at either a religious institution or justice of the peace - again; The two have entered into a binding contract.

    My point is that it shouldn't be as much of a state (mostly implied toward federal government) matter as it is. And it shouldn't be determined by a vote either. There shouldn't be an allowance, entitlement, or crumbs handed to the people. People should simply get married. The more this becomes a state affair, the more regulations will come into play and I think it will be a more tedious, harder road. But it may not end up being hard after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    Of course you can't tell those of "faith" about that because they're too busy thinking that law and religious scripture are one in the same.
    I can't entirely agree with this, as it's another generalization and stereotype. Usually due to people who get air time and publicity and make a mockery of some good people I know that are religious and understand it is a secular country. But, a decent percentage of that is true... and it's sad

    Last edited by GhostValkyrie; June 25th, 2009 at 01:36 PM.
     

  19. #46
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    One of the interesting things (historicaly, anyway, many places have put provisions into law about this) about not being married is that you're not family or next of kin, so if your partner gets run over by a car and put in emergency ward you can't find out anything until you get in contact with your partner's next of kin.

    "Marriage" as an institution has a lot more structure in place for things like adoption, death, property, financial institutions, etc, than common law does. These are the things that we're fighting for (and finally have in Canada, thank you!).

    A lot of these things have been addressed, one by one, partially, in the different systems, but when just granting the title of marriage can impart all these things legally, how does it not make sense?

    If you live in a country that claims to have seperated church and state, there is no reason to deny citizens the right to marry based on religious grounds. They don't have to get married in a church. If it were purely religious then why can athiests still get married? It's still called 'marriage' whether it's in a religious function or not, and up here in canada there are plenty of religious institutions that will marry a homosexual couple, so i don't even see how that's a full argument anyway...

    Ahem.

    That being said, that letter just made me laugh. It's so misspelled I can't take it seriously. i guess the cynic in me has just accepted that people like that exist and try to ruin things for everyone....

     

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    Originally Posted by darkwolf29a...

    "But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!"

    Answer by GhostValkyrie...

    "You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays."

    Sorry, Ghost'... This is a completely false statement/lie.

    *********************************

    By Peter Coene...

    "...it is illegal to put things in someone's mailbox unless you are a postal worker, as it is considered tampering with their mail."

    Absolutely true. It's federal crime with severe penalties, and also applies to people stuffing newspapers, ad flyers, religious tracts, rubbish, and personal notes into the mailbox. You can hang it on a rack underneath, staple-gun it to the wall (if you don't mind being charged with vandalism), whatever, but you can't put it IN the mailbox.

    **********************************

    ...and those of you throwing around comments about marriage being a religious, not state, contract...you really don't know what you're talking about. Check your facts before you open your yap.

    Marriage is a legal contract that is part of and regulated by every government on the face of the earth. It isn't even a "given" right, but the official recognition of two people wishing to merge as a legal family unit before witnesses.

    There are also many examples in history where two people couldn't marry officially (in or out of the church) without the express permission of the King, Czar, Tribal elders, slave-owner, or Chief, and many of these instances were in supposedly devout "Christian" societies, primarily because it effected the economic base that society was depended on. Marriage being authenticated by the state allows the right of co-ownership, access, the right to bear children with the right of inheritance, tax and medical relief where available, and a thousand other things we take for granted.

    The religious involvement boils down to (usually) "Don't fuck your GF/BF before marriage," "Don't fuck your neighbors wife/husband," and "You're married...permanently (no divorce)." Now...we all know how successfully THOSE religious dictates are adhered to by the faithful, don't we?




    ADD: You want to argue that marriage is a purely religious matter, I suggest you try getting married in the church of your choice without a marriage license, blood test and/or legal registration anywhere in the western world (and probably the majority of the rest of it).

    Last edited by Ilaekae; June 25th, 2009 at 02:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Originally Posted by darkwolf29a...

    "But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!"

    Answer by GhostValkyrie...

    "You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays."

    Sorry, Ghost'... This is a completely false statement/lie.
    I'll have to go back to putting sarcasm alerts in posts I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    ADD: You want to argue that marriage is a purely religious matter, I suggest you try getting married in the church of your choice without a marriage license, blood test and/or legal registration anywhere in the western world (and probably the majority of the rest of it).
    My argument wasn't that it's entirely religious, but a kind of provision. I'm only guessing this was aimed at me. Just guessing.
    My wife and I would have preferred to perhaps elope or have our own thing. But the state requires the license and certification for benefits. It boils down to getting what you can out of it with regard to the state and legalities. Otherwise people would just buy rings and call themselves married.

    Last edited by GhostValkyrie; June 25th, 2009 at 02:42 PM.
     

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    I actually assumed you were being sarcastic, but considering some of the arguments going on right now in this forum on theft, copyrights, Iran, marriage, politics and religion, I thought it would be good to point out the obvious to those with a first-grade education that seem to be especially verbose...



    ...unnerstan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune View Post
    The sodomy laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable. However, some states still attempt to enforce their laws. Virginia...
    Interesting note about Virginia...we have the only state flag that depicts nudity, but showing nipple in strip clubs is illegal. Actually, until 2005 it was technically illegal for ALL unmarried people in VA to have sex...

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    I actually assumed you were being sarcastic, but considering some of the arguments going on right now in this forum on theft, copyrights, Iran, marriage, politics and religion, I thought it would be good to point out the obvious to those with a first-grade education that seem to be especially verbose...



    ...unnerstan?
    Uh-huh.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by daestwen View Post
    That being said, that letter just made me laugh. It's so misspelled I can't take it seriously. i guess the cynic in me has just accepted that people like that exist and try to ruin things for everyone....
    Well, I think folk like the person who wrote that letter have more fear than real hate in their hearts. Fear can easily be manipulated into hate by those seeking to control. Those people are the truly despicable. The person that would pray on a parents fear for the safety of it's child, or the uneducated's ignorance, to advance a system of social intolerance is no less a predator than a pedophile, and certainly more dangerous to society as a whole. The ultimate flowering of those who seek to impose "decency" and "moral correctness" through coercion, intimidation, and the eventual violence their rhetoric inspires is groups like the Taliban, and the Ku Klux Klan. It really scares me when I look at the similarities between the dictates Islamic theocracies use to impose "Moral Correctness" on their populations and the values of the fundamentalist christian organizations they desire to see made into law. I have little doubt that a fundamentalist christian theocracy would really differ much at all from the Islamic "Republics" we see now in Iran and Saudi Arabia. I'm sure Jerry Falwell would've been tickled...pinker...to have been the "Grand Pastor" of the United States, and address the nation every Sunday with words of fear and hate for those who would seek to corrupt his beloved, pious nation.

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    You guys crack me up.

    There's not anything remotely 'hateful' in that letter. It's primarily about watching out for school and neighborhood property, a valid concern if you've ever lived near an event/fair/etc.

    Yet, if you didn't actually read the letter(most of you probably didn't) but read everyone's replies instead, you would think the letter said 'kill all fags'

    Lighten up, Francis.

     

  31. #54
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    I *did* read it... The statements and insinuations that the Gay Pride group is comprised of sex offenders, crack dealers, vandals and will somehow threaten the safety of people and their children (by holding a parade) isn't really anything but grammatically awful hate speech. Replace any bit of that with "black" or "women", etc. and it sounds like we've regressed 60+ years.

    But not to digress, thanks for the help (Steph, especially, will see what I can do about contacting news organizations and some other helpful folks)...
    And hopefully the parade is awesome, will take photos to share if I can

     

  32. #55
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    Gay folks and their advocates sure are obsessed about speech. It's a bit disconcerting to hear people who presumably consider themselves 'liberal' ranting on about something as innocuous as a flier.

    Ya'll don't really sound much different than a conservative Billy Bob blathering on about burning the American flag.

    Anyway, if the news shows up(number is on the flier!), make sure you have enough pitchforks and torches. And call Perez Hilton.

    Last edited by Elam; June 25th, 2009 at 07:51 PM.
     

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  34. #56
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    Not making a point here, but is there anything stopping two gay people from drawing up a legal contract between themselves that would cover those issues not already covered in civil unions? The adoption, death, property, financial institutions, etc. issues? I'm not saying they should have to, I'm just asking if they can.

     

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    Bill: Adoption? Oh hell yes. Some places you're just simply not allowed to, if you're gay. Like I said, a lot of the others have been dealt with on an individual basis, but I don't see why someone should have to go through eight times the work to ensure the same rights that the rest of the population get off the bat. A lot of the issue lies with insurance, though, especially medical and life insurance, there are plenty of policies open only to those legally married. (Another thing you are better off coming to canada for! Government Health Care... )

    Though, to be fair, a industrious couple that are determined can probably work out everything to be almost identical, but I don't see why they would bother with all that work when it's easier to come up to Canada.

    How is it every time I post in the lounge I sound like one of those "Beautiful Canada" commercials with stock video of mountians and rivers and parades upon parades of gay people?

    Elam: Ho boy, I really am not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

     

  36. #58
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    TASmith is offline Registered User Level 16 Gladiator: Spartacus' Retiarii
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    "But aren't those kinds of generalizations and stereotypes the problem?"

    It's not about generalizations or stereotypes. I'm not lumping anyone together. I know there are decent Texans out there. I have friends and family in Texas. Look back and read what I said again. I said don't be surprised you found a letter like that. Don't be surprised by the ignorant people who do exist. I've lived for 29 years in America, I've traveled all over it, and I've taught for about 4 years there. America's got good and bad, but it's also got an element of ignorance and hate that goes to extremes. I guess the closest you could compare it to in Europe is racism against gypsies, especially in Hungary. Don't be surprised it exists, but do your best to combat it maturely.

    Last edited by TASmith; June 25th, 2009 at 08:29 PM.
     

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    I guess the closest you could compare it to in Europe is racism against gypsies, especially in Hungary
    Yet America has no mainstream political groups which espouse what your calling racism. Europe has plenty: The BNP, Geert Weilder's Party for Freedom, Le Pen in France. And that's Western Europe. Eastern Europe is too insulated and homogeneous to even know, imo. And Russia?

     

  38. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    Yet America has no mainstream political groups which espouse what your calling racism. Europe has plenty: The BNP, Geert Weilder's Party for Freedom, Le Pen in France. And that's Western Europe. Eastern Europe is too insulated and homogeneous to even know, imo. And Russia?
    Jeez, who'da guessed? Some people just don't like each other. Might be an insecurity thing. Doubt if it's compulsory, though.....
    edit: kkk?

    Last edited by alesoun; June 25th, 2009 at 09:05 PM.
     

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