Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education) - Page 19
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Thread: Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education)

  1. #541
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    Found an online version of Grays anatomy(old one listed stopped working).
    For some reason wikipedia has removed a lot of their illustrations from Grays anatomy and replaced them with some strange photoshop mess. So if you want to study the origin and insertion of muscles then just follow this link
    http://www.bartleby.com/107/
    and you can find the best illustrations available. This is the book that Robert Beverly Hale recommends.

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  3. #542
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    Practicum.org

    Hummel1dane, thank you for visiting it and for your comments.

    I truly am a follower of "a picture worth a thousands words". So no matter what language, they have hundreds, if not thousands of very valuable images there. Including those that could be used for copying (Rembrandt, Michelangelo, etc)

    Yes, I understand your wish to know what they say about other schools. But when you're in the album with pics, you can always copy text and translate it in Google or smth.
    Or post it here, I'll translate! :)

    The advantage of Practicum.org is that it has more of academic approach (comparing to vKontakte.ru where any person can join/post), and the information there is posted/updated almost on daily basis.
    My suggestion is to always check the very bottom of Practicum, all the links to new articles usually appear right there.
    (btw, translation button is also at the bottom.. a bit inconvenient, but better than nothing)

    There is a very good new article on Academie Julian - I recommend to take a look... even without translation you'll enjoy the images. :)

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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  5. #543
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    Hi, Hummel1dane,

    Didn't check this thread for a while...
    I forgot to mention that Chubirko is one of former students of Prof. Mogilevtsev.
    I guess, he moved to Florence soon after his graduation.

    His, as well as other students' works from Prof.Mogilevtsev workshop are in the album that I've mentioned already, "Academic Drawings and Sketches".

    Here is a couple of Chubirko's works from there:

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    Last edited by Book Guru; April 17th, 2013 at 03:58 PM. Reason: website links have been changed
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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  7. #544
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    still have to go through most of this thread but thank you so much everybody who contributed!

    life's unexpected turns allowed me to study with Sergey Chubirko for the last month and it's been fantastic...!
    In January Aleksey Bakhtin is coming to Florence for an Anatomy and Construction course which sounds very interesting as well.

    Just getting more into the world of Russian drawing and painting, thank you for all the information Lena, Katerina, Hans, Jonas, ..., ...!!

    So much to learn

    Here's a ~15h pencil portrait I just finished during the month with Chubirko - challening, I have to really reorganize my neural pathways and hope to improve my anatomical and structural understanding!



    PS.
    Bakhtin:



    Last edited by dorian; December 13th, 2010 at 07:31 PM.
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  9. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence Humphrey View Post
    At

    http://www.practicum.org/index.php

    one discovers the amazingly brilliant work of Hameed Savkooyev (in the right hand column, 3rd one down.)

    (If my transliteration from the Cyrillic alphabet is not right could you give us the correct spelling in English Lena? Thanks.)
    Lawrence, his name is spelled Khamid Savkuev, and he is teaching painting at our Academy. This guy really rocks.
    Imagine, he graduated from the Painting faculty, but later on got interested in sculpture, and done so well that recently his entire regional collection was acquired by the State Russian Museum (the one that exhibits Filonov, Malevich, Repin, and all our academicians).

    I saw his works first time back in 2004, at his workshop, was really amazed, like his talent since then.

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  11. #546
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    Hi Dorian!

    Didn't see your post, was reading old articles here (as I didn't cover all the pages yet), just answered the one which seems to be several months old.
    I see you're really progressing... as we say, "moving in the right directions".
    I've already asked one Academy graduate about your drawing (I'm with laptop) - he said he'd receive a solid "4" grade for this work (out of 5), which is a very high grade, in case you don't know. /I can post his comments about your work, if you'd like./

    Aleksei Bakhtin - is he from prep courses? I didn't hear his name yet.

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  13. #547
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    And one more post -

    About new information on Practicum.org art portal.
    Earlier, I've mentioned about new article on Academie Julian, published there about a month ago.

    Now, only a couple of days ago, they published two more increadible historical articles, this time on two great European schools -
    - Anton Azbe in Germany, and

    - Fernand Cormon - the place where both Van Gogh and Toulouse Lautrec had been studying (it's more was like a workshop rather than a real school, later will be known as "Atelier Cormon").

    Again, the translation option is almost at the bottom of that site, in the left. I very much recommend to check both links, as it shows other branches of the same academic system that were used by the Russian Art Academy in St.Petersburg.

    P.S. for those who like to see pictures only, they both have many images!

    Last edited by Book Guru; December 14th, 2010 at 08:49 AM.
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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Thank you Katerina! I would love to hear the comments! Not sure if that is too off topic for this thread, you can also PM or email if you like!
    I expect the main criticism is "no real understanding of the structure of the head" =)

    Not sure what Bakhtin's position is, I'll let you know when I find out.

    PS. great articles, didn't know about Azbe before, some really nice work!

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    I would really like to know a bit more in detail advantages and disadvantage of the new york academy of art school from students who went and are going there also. Because for the kind of money your paying it as to be quality education wathever the system that they are teaching. and the exposure as to be really good to in job prospect because of how much it costs?

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    new york academy

    All I know is that while they are paying thousands of dollars to the New York Academy, the students come to our modest studio in the evening (Bridgeview School) to learn to draw. They also go to the Art Students League to study with better artists. It does not make sense if it were such a great school. There are not many colleges in the U.S. that teach drawing, painting or sculpture in a serious way. But, having said that, I would recommend Pennsylvania Academy in Philadelphia before I would recommend the New York Academy. At least they have a 4 year BFA program with two years of foundation classes taught by very good practicing artists. New York Academy accepts pretty much anyone who wants to pay.

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    I started a new resource on FB

    If any of you are on FaceBook, I've started a new resource page for practicing artists.

    I've compiled and will keep adding albums with helpful references for everyone on a variety of subjects (anatomy, plein aire studies, composition work etc)..It's based on my own learning experience at the Repin Academy and working every day in my studio.

    Here it is http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...43770632347726

    Please feel free to join. Also, if anyone wants to start any discussion there, you are welcome to do so.

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  23. #552
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    Here is a link to the blog of David Apatoff. In this post he shows some work of Valentin Serov:VALENTIN SEROV
    and from the same blog a post about Repin and has some interesting text too.
    Repin

    I dont know if those were posted before or not but the post about Repin has some interesting things to read.

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  25. #553
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    Thank you, Eew!

    I'm always happy to see other enthusiasts of Russian art school (I don't mean the Academy only, I mean in general).

    Two excellent points there:

    "When I wandered into the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, I was astonished at the number of brilliant artists lining the walls who were never mentioned in my art history books (including abstract expressionist work by Malevich several decades before abstract expressionism was "invented" in New York)." (by Donald Pittenger)

    "In the last 100+ years narrative painting has been under attack, proper figure drawing, and traditional drawing practices are marginalized. That is also why "our day" doesn't see the kind of work produced in the 19th century." (by Amy June Bates)

    (And I'm really glad this was said by not Russian people, so no one can accuse them of being biased! )

    Though the blog's owner, David Apatoff, sometimes really lacks a good knowledge of the subject he's opening for discussion... E.g., he puts Repin and Serov under "astonishing Renaissance in Russia", while comparing them to... Russian religious painting - icons! - "For centuries, Russian artists had manufactured religious icons to suit the rigid specifications of church dogma." .... "Russian artists went out of their way to avoid accurate, representational images." ... "But starting in the 19th century, there was a period of sunlight and fresh air which inspired a flurry of cultural activity in Russia" .... "to shake off the dust and produce world class artwork"... %)

    Any Russian art historian would have a hard time keeping a straight face reading all that.
    Interestingly, all above was said in order to emphasize the importance of such artists as Repin and Serov, but Mr. Apatoff obviously needs to get more familiar with the subject prior to publishing it in his blog.

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  27. #554
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    ''narrative painting has been under attack, proper figure drawing, and traditional drawing practices are marginalized''

    I think this is very important. How i see it in the context of choosing the right school/realism vs construction is that no matter what school you choose to learn representative/realistic art, you learn a skill(a set of tools) that allow you to do just that. The important thing in my opinion is what you do with that skill, that can make you relevant today as an artist(or make your art relevant).
    I am being intrigued by art that expands my understanding about the world. Art that makes me think and see in ways i didnt before. That is why Greenbergs comments on Repin are just bullshit because i can learn from Repin and from Duchamp(yes, just a random example ). I would be learning their look on the world and that can only benefit me in my own evolution as a human.
    I also dont understand people who not only defend traditional art but also atack everything new and different. For me they are no better then people who do the opposite.
    But i think people are used to think that everything they dont understand is bad. It makes day to day life much easier.
    I am getting way off topic here so i will stop now.

    Any Russian art historian would have a hard time keeping a straight face reading all that.

    Yes but it is still the best, ''twitter format'' introduction to russian art for infidels like me.

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  29. #555
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    Eew,

    Good saying!

    Only one comment.
    In regards of "I also dont understand people who not only defend traditional art but also atack everything new and different." -

    You have to remember, I'm the one defending Fine Arts.
    So to me something that is called "cool" (which is the most used word nowadays in so-called contemporary art) is not exactly what can be called fine art, no matter how new or innovative it is. Installations, abstractions, comics, etc - they're ok, but they exist in a kind of different art world.

    That's why you won't see anything like that in our Academy. If they teach or allow any "innovations" during studying there, that will be the end of Academy. Yes, this can be argued, but... no one there will listen to your arguments by default. After the graduation you can go as wild as your imagination goes, but you have to wait for 6 years for that.

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  31. #556
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    Ofcourse, thats why people call it abstract art, performance art, etc... Everything has its place. Atleast that is how i see it.
    You know, even i dont know a thing about academy(only thrue internet), i wouldnt like it if they would start doing character design for games or something.

    ''After the graduation you can go as wild as your imagination goes, but you have to wait for 6 years for that.''

    That was exactly my point in my last post.

    The reality atleast in Belgium is that if you want to learn more traditional set of skills like drawing realistic, you are on your own. Most teachers who give nude drawing CAN'T draw. I know an academy in a city Ghent, where in the sixties they destroyed most of the casts as a way to protest or something like that and anyone who has a master in art, even if he did instalations for 4 years, he/she can give drawing classes. Where is the logic in that ? So even when none of the teaching staff thinks that those ''traditional'' skills are important the curiculum still has 3 years of drawing from a model and no one to teach it properly. So, again i do agree with you that the academy should stay the way it is. However, i am glad you guys have interwebs now !

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  33. #557
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    Google art project!!

    Take a look at this, pretty amazing. But be warned, it's also highly addictive

    http://www.googleartproject.com/

    Enjoy...

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  35. #558
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    hummel1dane,

    Yeah.... Thank you, I'm there for the last 72 hours.
    I don't know how long it's alive, but I've got this link from our partner a couple of days ago.
    Two sleepless nights is a result of it.

    To see my favorite Rembrandt in such detail!! I'm still amazed.
    Highly recommend this to everyone. (but don't blame me for this later!)

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  37. #559
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    Week-Long Structural Drawing Workshop in NYC

    I know it's a long shot, but if anyone is in the US at the time, we will be having a week-long Figure Drawing Workshop at the Bridgeview School March 21-25. Here is a link with more details

    http://www.academicart.com/bridgevie...rt-schools.htm

    It will be taught by one of our Bridgeview instructors Harout Simonian using the same methodology of structural diagrams as done by professor Kurkov of the Repin Academy (one of my earlier posts in this thread). Harout Simonian studied as a sculptor in Armenia, so he has a great understanding of anatomy and human form. You can see some of the work done by New York City's high school students who just began studying with him this year here www.academicart.com/blog.htm

    This workshop might be perfect for those of you who need some figure drawings for your Repin prep course portfolio.

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  39. #560
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    a funny quote

    I came across this very witted, perhaps somewhat too direct to a western ear statement by Efim Repin (the guy who started www.practicum.org) and I debated whether I should post it. It referred to a drawing similar to many that come out of these "classical" ateliers, you all know the kind, we've discussed those here at length. But, I think this is so well put that it definitely deserves attention and it is directly related to the subject of this discussion.

    "I have seen enough of these sculpey-made western-style humanoids. Once again – they have completely lost the culture of the figure, reducing everything to formal naturalism. By copying from lithographs, ala “old masters” they do not realize that from this strain of apes a human being will never emerge. They don’t have anyone there who can explain to them in their native English tongue that this chewing gum has long been spat in the last century. But they persevere to pick it up and chew it again, trying to find new and unforgettable taste."
    - by Efim Repin, a Repin Academy graduate, although his name might be a nickname.

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    So I guess no words of italy then....

    Hello guys...

    Hate to spoil the Russian party,
    the artwork is outstanding and actually makes me wonder...
    I mean I have never heard about an academy or a university that is currently at the level of Repin institute in Italy.

    I look to Accademia di Belle Arti Firenze
    Academy of Fine Arts of Bologna
    Brera Academy in Milan

    and can't believe that these academies have faded, they are of the first academies founded in Europe.

    So, if anybody have an idea of the current art level of students that graduate of these academies, or links to their artworks
    also the current level of the faculty members and their styles, please you are welcome...

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  43. #562
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    Hey guys, I've been out for awhile but I'm bringing some goodies!!

    Here's a selection of academic nudes from various schools, mostly from the 19th century.

    Spanish Academic





    Picasso


    Italian Academic
    Giacomo Favretto


    American and French

    the master Cabanel


    Kenyon Cox





    Ed Pothast


    Emile Friant


    Gleyre








    Flandrin


    Ingres





    From Gerome's class



    George DeForest Brush at Gerome's (he actually named his kid after him)


    Miscellaneous





















    Belgian (I think)


    I'll post more soon. A lot can be found at this wonderful blog
    http://academicnudes19thcentury.blog...5d91821e0801de

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  45. #563
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    By the way, my friend Lamb (also Vilppu student) and I just released an ebook of our drawings!

    We're offering to anyone who donates at least $10 to our campaign on Indiegogo. All proceeds go to help us move to Virginia and study painting under Robert Liberace (http://www.robertliberace.com/figure...gs/gallery.htm)

    The ebook features really high res images so you can see how each drawing was made. Our approach is constructive, but we try to integrate that framework into more naturalistic work.

    Personally, I'm trying to create drawings that show a thorough understanding of structure (construction), but at the same time feel natural and dynamic.

    Here are some sample pages!






    For more info, check out the link on my sig, or PM me.

    We also have a new blog at http://partnersinpaint.blogspot.com/

    Thanks!

    -Ramon

    PS. I hope I'm not out of line for posting this, I just feel that our book would be a helpful educational aid.

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    Brazilian Academic Drawings from the 19th and 20th centuries

    I've been following this amazing thread for a while and want to thank you all for the information being delivered here, which has been of great value for me and, I believe, for everyone following it as well. To know there are great academies out there still pursuing the old masters is both comforting and encouraging.

    The same couldn't be said about Brazil, unfortunately (though I know it's not different elsewhere for the most part). Our school of fine arts hasn't had a great tradition to begin with but at its roots it has been closely related to that of the french academies, with even some great students studying under Cabanel and Bouguereau.

    I'd like to share with you some of the works of these, our masters of old, that still remain, forgotten in our school's museum, mistreated and neglected, including a painting which is believed to be a Quentin Matsys' and others of the XV century of which the authorship remain unknown.

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  49. #565
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    Darshu,

    THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

    Unbelievable, you have these drawings at your school's museum??
    I've never seen anything from Brazil related to academic drawings. All these drawings are really nice, some are just outstanding. But it really hurts to hear they're "mistreated and neglected".

    And the painting!! Jesus, it's beautiful!!

    What is your most known school as of today? Does anyone at least tries to teach academic traditions there?

    //I'll send the link to our partners at Practicum.org, I'm sure they'll appreciate it as much as I do.//

    Thank you again. Just love it.

    www.4-art.org - art educational books
    www.Practicum.org - art educational portal
    guru@4-art.org - my direct e-mail
    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Guru,

    I'm glad that you like them. I do think too that some of the drawings are just amazing, specially Rodolfo Amoedo's. And they're really much better live than on these poor photographs I took since the museum doesn't even have a Digital Catalog.

    These are remnants of the drawings done at the academy, the museum only holds work from their former students and only those performed while they were studying there. Some were made in Brazil and some while they were in Paris after they won the prix to study at the french academy. There are paintings also, I could post a few here if you like, though none of them became really great painters in my opinion.

    The main school is today called the School of Fine arts, which once was the Imperial Academy of Fine Arts founded in 1822, later National Academy of Fine arts and then finally School of Fine arts. In portuguese it would be Escola Nacional de Belas Artes.

    Academic training is pretty much dead, and completely ignored. No one knows how to do anything anymore, and don't really care (the contemporary approach has taken over 90% of the teachers and students) except printmaking teachers, one of Lithography, Kazuo Iha, and one of relief printing, Marcos Varella. No sculptors or painters, even though the courses still exist.

    This is the main reason why the museum, which is open for everyone, on the 7th floor, is pretty much empty and unknown to most students. If you were to tell a student of painting that there was an original Quentin Matsys on their very museum, most of them would either not know who Quentin Matsys was, and even if they had heard about him, which is highly unlikely, they would not care.

    What truly is sad though is the way these works are being handled by the museum itself. They have been left to rot until 2-3 years ago when the museum was reformed. Before that, all those drawings and paintings, including the 15th century ones were hiding in a dark room, with a leaking ceiling. Many of the paintings being restored today were destroyed during this period, which might have lasted 10-15 years, maybe more.

    I study life drawing with a former teacher and student of the school, his name is Lydio Bandeira de Mello. He is, as far as I know, the only remnant of the academics, even though he is pretty modern compared to the ones I've showed you drawings of. He knows how things were done in the academy, but due to his age (83 now) he doesn't remember much of the technique, and since he didn't really have to follow the academics as they were dying when he attended the school, he doesn't really care much about it. He does prize a good drawing above everything and he is a great draftsman, one of the finest I know. His paintings are beautiful, but way more modern than the 19th century students. His role models go from the flemish primitives to the early renaissance masters, with rare exceptions. Anything after is already "second team" in his own terms. He's even done a fresco in Italy, in a place called Poggio Bustone, where St Francis of Assisi stayed in 1208. His knowledge is limited though, mostly because it's been directed to his own personal work, all regarded useless was forgotten, and whatever he does is more of an instinct now than a memorized thing, so it's hard to get stuff out of him. Despite his academic training, his contemporaries were modern painters and their influence was strong on his own work.

    If I have the opportunity I will take a good camera and photograph the 15th century paintings with better detail. They are very impressive, specially to someone who has never been to any museum in Europe or the USA.

    They did not belong to the school, but were given by a Portuguese collector that lived in Brazil. I have no idea how he got his hands on such precious paintings and items, which include really rare books, old chests, decorated porcelains, miniatures, furniture, and more, all of those being exhibited at the museum.

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    Somehow my last reply got eaten up (some message said it was awaiting moderator's review) so I'll try to re-answer it and remember all that I said, it was a long post...

    These drawings are all in our school's museum, and some are indeed amazing, specially Rodolfo Amoedo's (you can look him up on google I think, there are some images and a brief biography).

    The museum was abandoned for many years, with leaks that destroyed many paintings and fungus that left drawings almost unrecognizable. A 15th century paintings is one of them. Only recently the museum got moved up to the 7th floor with a better structure. But most students don't even go there, don't know what's in it. If you were to tell a student of painting that the school's museum has an original Quentin Matsys, 90% of them probably would not even know who Quentin Matsys was, and even if they did, which is highly unlikely, they wouldn't care much.

    The museum holds a collection of work that was done at the school. It's mostly students work while they were studying at the academy, or work they had to submit regularly while studying in Paris after winning the prize-trip, which is the case of some of the drawings I posted. It also holds a good collection of paintings, I could post some if you like, though none of them in my opinion became great painters.

    The school is called, today, School of Fine Arts or Escola de Belas Artes. It was once the Imperial Academy of Fine arts, founded in 1822, which then evolved to National School of Fine arts and then only School of Fine arts.

    No one teaches academic training at the school anymore, the knowledge is lost and the interest in it is close to zero, both from students and teachers. Rare exceptions are professors of the Printmaking course, which I'm majoring at, such as Kazuo Iha for Lithography. Sculpture and Painting courses still exist, barely, though no teacher holds enough knowledge to teach anyone how to paint or sculpt properly. The contemporary approach has taken over it almost entirely.

    The last of the academics, who studied under some good professors, is Lydio Bandeira de Mello, 83, former student and teacher at the School. He gives only private live model drawing lessons now at his atelier and as far as I know is the only one alive who knows a thing or two about drawing and painting. It's a limited knowledge though, as it is directed to his work, which was highly influenced but the modernists who were his contemporaries.
    Nevertheless he knows how to draw, but due to his age it's hard to get much out of him. Whatever was regarded useless to him was probably forgotten and whatever he does now is more instinct than memorized knowledge.

    His approach to drawing is kind of a mixture between analytical and comprehensive of the body. There are no absolute values like the realist school, the body is understood by planes, rhythm, simplified in boxes and cylinders much like Bridgman, and all parts of the drawing are worked at the same time, but there's also measuring and an attempt to put on the paper what you see rather than what you understand (at least for beginners).

    His role models are all from the renaissance, and it's a limited roster too, spanning from the early Flemish primitives to the early renaissance painters. Anything after that is considered "second team" in his own terms. He even has done a couple of frescoes in Italy, in a city called Poggio Bustone, where St Francis of Assisi stayed in 1208. But like I said, it's still a painting that has great influence of his time.

    The Quentin Matsys' painting at the museum is part of a collection given to the museum by a Portuguese, who lived in Brazil, after he died. I haven no idea how he got this collection in the first place, nor does anyone there, which includes 15th century paintings, old chests, rare books, miniature paintings on metals, porcelain, etc. Some paintings are of unknown authorship and only recently has the museum director began to investigate his life to know where they came from and perhaps find the authors and their true identity.

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    Weird..

    Guru,

    I tried a second time to reply to your post but perhaps because it's too long it keeps saying it will be visible after a moderator approves it, which hasn't happened yet after 2 days. Should I just wait or break it up in smaller posts?

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    And there they are....

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    Thumbs up

    THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

    Unbelievable, you have these drawings.
    I've never seen anything from Brazil related to academic drawings. All these drawings are really nice, some are just outstanding. But it really hurts to hear they're "mistreated and neglected".

    And the painting!! Jesus, it's beautiful!!

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