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Thread: Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education)

  1. #196
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    Yes we certainly studied still life objects as well, building them transparent and in perspective.
    But our instructor found it necessary to try out different methods, to see what worked best!
    Drawing stones to learn cross-hatch and build a planar understanding was very succesfull. I suppose also a way of disregarding the uneven structure(to learn generalisation of major planes, and subdivision) and to disregard the tone, to learn to think in terms of "neutral values"
    A stone is simple, and yet still have an organic shape - unlike still life objects. Also branches are very organic. Branches are also good to study weight.
    And drawing from plastercasts is done as well.

    There really isnt any fixed curiculum, the instructor will decide what he/she thinks is best, most needed. Maybe even throw different exercises at different people.
    If you are more advanced, copying Michelangelo would probably be it.
    Thats also how they teach when they draw on your drawing - they can see that you are lacking a specific understanding of something and then draws in order to show you visualy "how to do it"
    If you dont need help, they might avoid you entirely for a long time. Because there is no point! Or if they find that you are struggling with a specific understanding, they might give you time for it to sink in.
    Sometimes theyd draw on your drawing for a few minutes, sometimes for half an hour! Whatever is needed for you to understand.

    As for "style" they dont really care so much what it looks like in the end, as long as it accomplishes the purpose of explaining form. All they really want is for you to master the principles(but they will point out bad proportions and gesture though).
    In this process the word "finished" makes less sense. Its a study.
    You start to regard it as an exercise and not as "fine art" Thats also great for beeing more loose. Not attached to any outcome.
    My master would tell us not to make any "Pretty drawings for your mama"

    In "die gestalt des menchen" by Gottfried Bammes there are many students drawings from various semesters. It is interesting to see the exercices they had to solve.

    As for the Chinese academy - sticking to pencil must be to learn value control. I think we had a few of those drawings posted in this thread? Cones rendered in different values?
    Mm, the russian system I know is more conceptual/form minded - so charcoal and redchalk and whitepencil is usually used. Pencil is considered more for beginners, because its easier to control and correct.
    Also the eraser is often used in the same way as a white pencil - so you can cross-hatch with an eraser!
    Red chalk is often used in the beginning, and if the paper is of a darker tone, it can be highlighted with a white pencil. And if its a longer study, you can go over the whole thing with charcoal later on.
    This is a great way of working, as you can softly and loosely build the whole structure with red chalk and then make it tight again with charcoal.(I have to admit that I dont have any huge experience with this process..)
    The type of paper is also very important - in general you work in A2 with rough paper. I will try to see if I can get information about the brand.

    I would love to watch that documentary. I got another one, think its just called "Michelangelo".

    Yes, most of the french masters did clay sculpture as a way of studying the human form. I think those classes were free if you were a student at the academy. Gerome instructed all his students to take those classes.

    I could imagine talking classes in ecorche building will teach a lot as well.
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  4. #197
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    One thing that I am finding in my research does not corrilate. I don't think the masters we think of: Leonardo, Michaelango, Greuz, thought of faces as planar in this way, just as romans and greeks did not think in this way. Rather, I am thinking they thought in terms of more natural form, not as blocks but from the begining as natural forms, organic forms, and altering them after study to then describe through relation to these idealied forms such as blocks or spheres. ONe might say the solution is in understand the real thing then idealizing it, rather than idealizing first, Angel has the interest in it, but it is hard for the students to understand (and to teach), as the explanation for this seems daunting for a person who has no base knowledge. I think it is important to realize that though these russian schools do have a MUCH stronger relation to that idea of form in the past, it has changed, the principles are similar, but different, like that of platonic and neoplatonic. this is a truely complex subject!!! and to make the descision for why one uses the concept is soo important!

    p.s. I have been at angel for years as well, and I could not bout with any master!!
    BUT, there are many many things about painting I've learned from this school that I see no other school teaches.
    Last edited by EBKF; December 18th, 2009 at 08:10 PM.
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  6. #198
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    Yes i agree the pencil is more for the beginners. I make u use it for the first few drawing because i believe the point of the first couple of exercise (cast drawing and still life) is to train ur perception and value judgment, hence the need to have a simpler medium which let you totally concentrate on what's important. I am not too sure but I believe when they move to figure drawing, they add charcoal to their arsenal.

    The video is http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDe....aspx?cid=7130 Michelangelo is without doubt a genius in my opinion. In the video, it was stated that he has an uncanny ability to learn new skill at a rapid rate, and most of the time, does it better than the one he is learning from. I have to say, he would make a rather infuriating student to have. Haaa

    One thing that I am finding in my research does not corrilate. I don't think the masters we think of: Leonardo, Michaelango, Greuz, thought of faces as planar in this way, just as romans and greeks did not think in this way. Rather, I am thinking they thought in terms of more natural form, not as blocks but from the begining as natural forms, organic forms, and altering them after study to then describe through relation to these idealied forms such as blocks or spheres.
    I think what you say is true. We can never know what those artists are thinking or if they even think in the same way. I tend to believe that each of them have their own system of thinking. From what I observe, Michelangelo is in awe of the roman sculpture and think in the sculptural way. He is famous for his rather muscular women. Leonardo is more soft and probably use the egg mass conception more than Michelangelo. So did Raphael. But one thing I notice that is common to them is probably their lack of direct light. They usually invent their own lighting (most of the time indirect lighting) and sometimes, each figure might have its own lighting system.
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  8. #199
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    Edited : This post contains confusing language, I won't delete it as it is a part of the general discussion. But the problem is in the definition of planes and working planar. I will be doing better and hopefully less confusing explanations in the tutorials I'm working on - http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178694

    EBKF-

    Yes you are absolutely right!
    And I can add to what you said that the true lesson is to learn "to think" as there are no rules or truths. There is only one way to find out if something works, just try and see.

    Now as for many of the russian drawings, yes they are very planar. Perhaps they build more on Michelangelo than Leonardo and Raphael.
    Vilppu's style is very different from Michelangelo. Vilppu teaches mainly animators, thus his need is more "gesture" rather than "sculpture"
    Like stated, the russians can get a bit stiff. Communism perhaps, who knows.

    But as for planar understanding - you build the planes where you want them! There is no such thing as an ideal planar head - these "ideal heads" are only a help.
    You can also work very planar in the beginning, then later on, soften the tone. Then you have a very concrete planar base, with an organic smoothness.

    The main reason to work very planar is to do perspective alignments and figure out the location of light/shade. Thus I believe many artists who later went "soft" did those planar studies in their youths.

    Interestingly its the excact same way we work with 3D in a computer system(if you count out z-brush)
    Everything is actually planar to begin with - then you use an integrated smoothing system of subdividing big planes into smaller planes.
    A circle is also a plane, actually its a subdivided triangle!
    A triangle is the simplest plane, then square, pentagon etc. Only in the end comes the circle. (except that theoretically a circle is still a polygon, but with endless sides)
    The ancients used to worship the circle as God!

    But you can use the circle right away as the tool to create the feeling of 3 dimensions. And base everything on spherical forms. I just find it more difficult.
    But I can tell you that its much faster to draw a circle than a square, so its especially valuable in quick sketches.

    When considering the symmetry of the human body, working with boxes makes much sense. Then we simply locate fixed symmetry points in perspective space. When combining two of those with a straight line, you are already half way to building a plane.

    You can also have sliced planes going inside the form, it doesnt need to be surface planes. These sliced planes can be circles, such as a circle around the neck.
    BUT they are easier to align if you just choose 4 points, and make a square in perspective. Then later you can refine you square, make it into a sort of modified circle and perhaps curve this line around the neck muscles.
    These inside planar slices can be worked out everywhere you choose, and become any form you like.
    In the beginning they are very simplified, but as your anatomical knowledge increases, you can refine.

    Now about the circle; If you want to make a correct circle in perspective, you would need a plane anyway.
    Square planes get distorted because of perspective. If planes get distorted, so does circles. Then simply construct the square plane in perspective, and draw the circle inside the distorted plane.
    But this is just crazy theory - I dont know how precise perspective alignment of the figures they did in the past.

    But it is this "3D thinking" that we build upon.

    Besides, all the russian drawings we see are just student drawings, its impossible to know what they did later on...

    As for light, its a free system, do what you like! Experiment!

    --

    Yes painting is taught very well at Angels.

    --

    Mydrako - I dont understand, is it only 30min lecture, or 30min times 36 lectures?
    Last edited by hummel1dane; January 19th, 2010 at 06:47 PM.
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  10. #200
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    jerusalem studio school

    Found this link on the Jerusalem Studio School with more figurative work

    http://jssart.wordpress.com/

    Master Class Gallery link

    http://jssart.wordpress.com/gallerie...class-gallery/

    I don't know about you all, but this is the most impressive of all the atelier schools that I've seen. Has a more artistic approach, more humanist, may be?
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  12. #201
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    trip to repin

    Erik from Denmark decided to go check out the Repin Academy at the end of January, that is when they have their Open Studio days. Basically, all the studios are open to the public and all the work has been graded by the professors, it only happens twice a year. I was wandering if any of you guys want to join him? I've put him in touch with our New York students who are now at the Repin Academy, and they will show him around.
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  14. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by lena murray View Post
    Erik from Denmark decided to go check out the Repin Academy at the end of January, that is when they have their Open Studio days. Basically, all the studios are open to the public and all the work has been graded by the professors, it only happens twice a year. I was wandering if any of you guys want to join him? I've put him in touch with our New York students who are now at the Repin Academy, and they will show him around.
    When exactly will he go and how many days is it open?
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  16. #203
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    open studio days at Repin Academy

    Here is Erik's email to me

    "I've corresponded with Jim, and I've decided to come to St. Petersburg January 14th and depart the 18th, which he thinks sounds fine. I will begin making flight and hotel reservations as soon as possible."

    This is from Erik Klærke Heltner

    I don't know if you guys know him, but I will ask him first if it's OK to give out his email to anyone who wants to join him.
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  18. #204
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    This thread has a lot of great info. I take oil painting lessons from a russian teacher, and yes, the system is definitely a lot different from american instructors I have had previously. I feel like I am learning now to paint with more life and feeling than I have had previously, even though I have not graduated to painting the figure (yet...). I'm still in high school, so I'm looking at options for when I graduate and summer programs, since this is my junior year. I've looked at the pre-college programs, and have a relative who went to one, but I haven't been impressed by the student work. I've been thinking about studying at an academy/atelier during the summer as well... but residency might end up being an issue.
    I've also looked at a few options for when I have graduated high school. I wanted to know if anyone knew anything about the Art Academy in St. Petersburg (http://www.artac.ru/). It looks like a good school (with a few teachers who graduated from Repin), albeit very far from home. I'm pretty used to the russian system of academic painting/drawing now.. and I just want to be able to continue painting in this way after high school. The one year program could also fit in well if I decide to come back to the U.S. and attend college. I'd really love to know some more about the program, Hummeldane or Lena, if you know anything about it.
    Last edited by Praemium; December 31st, 2009 at 06:07 PM.
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  20. #205
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    Praemium -

    I know that you can study in Florence as well(same school, www.artac.ru). I havent yet visited their school, but it looks pretty good.
    Just note that not all of their teachers are equally good, they also have student teachers of a lower standard.
    I would suggest that you check in advance how much time you get with the really good teachers.

    Lena -

    Since Im a dane myself I would really like to get in contact with Erik. I wont be able to join him though, but Im very curious about his past experience and future plans etc. Could you give me his email?
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  22. #206
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    answering Praemium

    I don't know much about that school, I think it is relatively new. But, I did look at their website and had the same observation as hummel1dane, meaning that not all of their teachers looked equally good to me.

    Of course, I can invite you to come to our school in New York (Bridgeview School of Fine Arts) for the summer program, which would prepare you better for studying at Repin, if that is your ultimate goal. Our summer program runs July and August and we have drawing, painting and sculpture (www.academicart.com)

    Feel free to write me a private message. I will try to help you the best I can.
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  24. #207
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    Another 3D anatomy link. Pretty cool!! Drag the mouse, move the bones around in 3 dimensions - or drag the mouse and see the different layer of muscles!!! Also veins

    http://www.msd-control.com/services/...ish/index.html
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  26. #208
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    This one is really good. You can turn the whole body in real time 3D.
    It was free a while ago but is seems you have to pay now for the full version.

    http://www.visiblebody.com/


    Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education)

    Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education)
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