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Thread: North Korea

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    North Korea

    First, a few months ago it was North Korea had the missile tests to "launch a satellite", Then it was actual nuclear tests, then their boats were provoking conflict along their borders, now they "kidnapped" the two US journalists and are imprisoning them for 12 years. If this isn't our next war, i don't know what is...

    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
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    Because going to war with a country that has an army twice the size of the USA is smart!

    Just think for a bit. Who is the US gonna send? Even if they are technically behind, its still 1 million guys with guns in one spot. And what if China decides to join in? 2,5 million angry guys with guns! I'm very doubtful that Obama, or Nato would like to start a new world war :p

    edit: And completly forgetting about the 3,5 million brainwashed militia.

    Last edited by Duq; June 8th, 2009 at 12:39 PM.
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    NK can suck my dong. Chairman Mao lite can suck my dong too. Just saying.

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    The worst thing here is that two totally innocent women are facing spending twelve years at hard labor because of the policies of a brainwashing mother-fucking pedo who runs official kidnapping/prostitution squads to insure that he and his tiny-dicked cronies get to play with cute teens when ever they want. I'm waiting for his filthy government to get so corrupt that even his starving braindead population turns on him and each other.

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    Everyone should watch this. This is life inside of North Korea. It will chill you to the bone.











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    The last time America fought north korea, we found ourselves facing Chinese soldiers...

    The onus to end Il's regime is on China, just as the onus to fight the Taliban is on Pakistan...

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    Coincidentally. The videos that I posted above come to us by way of an asian/american female reporter. Maybe the North Koreans felt the burn from how exposing this documentary was and didn't want it to repeated. Hence the hefty prison sentences.


    BTW, this sort of thing has happened before.Those girls will be released in a few months time after negotiations with U.S. diplomats.

    War is not an option.
    If anyone invaded them, the region that would suffer the most damage would be South Korea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Kei View Post
    If anyone invaded them, the region that would suffer the most damage would be South Korea.
    True. It sucks for them, because it sounds like SK is a pretty nice place. I've wanted to go there for some time. It just sucks when you have a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, and your next-door neighbours are a bunch of greasy fucking assholes squatting in a condemned shithole.

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    It'll be interesting how this effects US-Chinese relations, and how things develop. It's similar to South Africa and Zimbabwe.

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    Yeah, yeah, always another "axis of evil" to "liberate". (using """" this way is "fun")

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    ...something is rotten in this world...

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    I honestly say on this one, after how we are now perceived by the rest of the world, if we end up going to war we will have to wait untill NK makes the 1st attack just to avoid another "preemptive strike." It sort of sucks though, because if thats the case it will probably mean loosing one of our major cities 1st.

    Glad I don't live in LA any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    The last time America fought north korea, we found ourselves facing Chinese soldiers...

    The onus to end Il's regime is on China, just as the onus to fight the Taliban is on Pakistan...
    The "onus" is always on the west because nobody else is up to speed financially, politically, morally, intellectually, or militarily. In 20 years maybe China will care, if their middle class arrives on schedule. Same goes for India. The only way I see action is if the Japan, China, and SouthKorea team up with ASEAN and form a kind of Eastern NATO to deal with Kim Jong. Don't hold your breath.

    Pakistan does not have the power to stop the Taliban, because radical islamists have massive amounts of "secret" oil-money funding, all the weaponry they want, and lots and lots of sympathizers. Meanwhile, Pakistan is barely stable, which is why they are always half-hearted in their efforts in the tribal regions.

    If you don't mind me asking, what is your news-opinion source, TA?

    Last edited by kev ferrara; June 8th, 2009 at 06:08 PM.
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    Another documentary/video travel journal about North Korea produced by Peter Tetteroo, and Raymond Feddema. This really blew my mind. The scenes in the city are chilling. It's a Orwellian nightmare made completely real.



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    If the US goes to war on this one.....God almighty (excuse the blasphemy) wouldn't be able to pull them for the shit storm they'll find themselves in.

    "They call this war a cloud over the land. But they made the weather and then they stand in the rain and say 'Shit, it's raining!'"

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    Let's see...we get more than half our imports from China. Perhaps a third or more of jobs here in America is dependent on China. So if we piss China off, the US economy will be totally destroyed. It was probably China's plan all along, to make other countries dependent on their imports. Also, we got most of our troops in Mideast and another war will severely put a strain on our defenses...yeah, we'd definitely lose in a war with NK/China.

    However, I'm all for nuking the North Korean government officials...they are evil and I think Kim Jong II should be stuffed into a chamber pot and shot out of a cannon.

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    Two things I would like to say about this topic:

    1.) North Korea is one of the world's worst hell holes. And why is that? It could be any number of reasons, but I see the most convincing being that the country is Communist and it is led by a power-hungry, Communist tyrant. I have no idea if anyone here is for Communism and I do not mean to come as brash but until I see a Communist regime that does more good than bad I will continue to hold my strong opposition against it.

    2. North Korea and it's own "Missile Crisis" is absolutely breath taking. A country that is exercising nuclear power for the purpose of creating a nuclear bomb should be stopped. Nuclear weapons are a terrible, terrible tool. In one second hundreds of thousands of lives can be lost. Not just that but if said power is in the hands of a mad man who is running his country with an iron fist, then what the hell are we doing sitting on our butts and doing nothing for? Do we not care that North Korea had shot a missile, a missile that was potentially dangerous but turned out to be harmless, which was discovered only after it landed harmlessly in the ocean, over Japan? Please remember, Japan is protected by the the United States of America in the Japan U.S. Security Treaty ( http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-ameri...q&a/ref/1.html ) yet we did nothing to stop the missile approaching Japan? People, we have troops stationed in Japan. We could of blown the missile straight out of the blue sky. But we didn't. Why?

    War with North Korea would be a very poor choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duq View Post
    Because going to war with a country that has an army twice the size of the USA is smart!

    Just think for a bit. Who is the US gonna send? Even if they are technically behind, its still 1 million guys with guns in one spot. And what if China decides to join in? 2,5 million angry guys with guns! I'm very doubtful that Obama, or Nato would like to start a new world war :p

    edit: And completly forgetting about the 3,5 million brainwashed militia.
    China is far more likely to fight against North Korea than with them. Despite historical ties, they aren't thrilled about having a crazy guy with nukes on their border.

    And the size of NK's standing army is largely irrelevant, given a lack of a meaningful airforce. Occupying NK would be very difficult, but more due to geography and a brainwashed populace than the NK standing millitary. However, getting in a war with someone who has nuclear strike capability on one of our close allies is a terrible, terrible idea. Indeed, getting involved in any war in our current state is a terrible idea; we could easily defeat any standing millitary, but it's highly unlikely to be worth the cost.

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    This is our (here, in the US) modern day, "Cuban Missile Crisis". Scary times. I had read earlier that Al Gore may be sent over there to make a deal for these two reporters' release.

    The one thing that makes this all less stressful is who we have as President right now *wiping sweat from brow*

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriciaS View Post
    The one thing that makes this all less stressful is who we have as President right now *wiping sweat from brow*
    The last guy would have used this as an excuse to invade Guam or something.

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    Scenario one: NK invades SK with ground forces (all it really has) suffers massive casualties due to complete air superiority of the opposition. Will either result in another ceasefire or escalation, which may involve nukes. North Korea is unlikely to get anything out of this due to crippled economics and poor logistics ability.

    Scenario two: Kim goes completely insane and launches nukes. The nuclear war we were all waiting for. North Korea more than likely completely obliterated.

    Scenario three: The "allies" see the need to remove Kim from power and invade. Though they have complete air superiority, ground casualties are high. Ironically the sparsely populated city suffers very little in the way of civilian casualties. NK forces dig in all around the countryside and most civilians are hostile. Incredibly costly, drawn out war that is not likely to occur.

    Scenario four: Captain Planet swoops in to save the day. Unfortunately, Kim has a toy water pistol filled with oil and manages to get him. The Planeteers have to save his ass yet again.

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    Peter, that's the thing, though. It's good to wait for Kim to strike first because he never will - just like Saddam Hussein never would've if we'd left him alone. These guys are Machiavellian style villains who want to maintain power and live their extravagent lifestyles. They know they're big fish in a small pond, and they don't want to fight a superpower. I read recently that no army really wants to fight a war, just prepare for them. Kim Jong Il wants nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip for money. Part of the reason they've been dirt poor and starving so long is the sanctions placed on them. They figure if they aim a bomb at Japan, maybe they'll get money for it.

    Kev, America is in a good position for diplomacy, and that's what we should pursue. But when it comes down to the UN security council, and passing resolutions (the main way to put pressure on NK as I understand), the major stumbling blocks will be China and Russia. They see communists as allies, and so I say the onus is on China to recognize its financial allies as more important than its ideological ones. Mad Cross noted the US economy would be wrecked in a war, which is also true of China. Neither side wants it, so it shouldn't ever occur, but until China can put pressure on NK to calm down, open relations, and democratize a bit, I don't see America as having much power here.

    "Pakistan does not have the power to stop the Taliban, because radical islamists have massive amounts of "secret" oil-money funding, all the weaponry they want, and lots and lots of sympathizers. Meanwhile, Pakistan is barely stable, which is why they are always half-hearted in their efforts in the tribal regions."

    Pakistan has a much stronger army than the Taliban, and the ability to invade the tribal areas and inflict casualties. Occupying is a much more difficult challenge, and I don't know if they could do that without additional manpower, which they don't want. It's yet to be seen whether the current offensive will ultimately hurt or help the Taliban, depending on how it effects those displaced in the war (whose side will they join?). This is why I say the onus is on Pakistan, irregardless of whether they're capable of pulling it off. Currently, many citizens in Pakistan and Afghanistan are sympathetic to the Taliban, but this is changing over time. With the Taliban's geographic reach for terrorism limited recently to within Pakistan's borders, mixed with their dillusional zeal upon the brief SWAT victory, many in Pakistan and Afghanistan are turning against them. Time will tell, and again, the few differences between the Taliban and the Govt forces of Pak and Afgh, is that the Taliban are a few degrees more strict in their interpretation of Islam, and they're anti-US. If the Taliban are ever defeated, it's very possible that the Govt's could become just the same.

    "If you don't mind me asking, what is your news-opinion source, TA?"

    Kev, you asked me this a year ago. If you're not going to remember, what's the point of answering? Up until 2009, I subscribed to: The Economist, Time, National Geographic, Foreign Policy, American Artist: Drawing, and B&W.

    I've stopped my subscriptions to save money for my house, but I still peruse their websites weekly, along with the New York Times, NPR, CNN, BBC, and Al Jazeera. Note, just because I read these sources, it doesn't mean I subscribe to everything they say. I'm not an expert and I won't pretend to be, but I care enough to try and stay educated on these subjects. I'd like to know alot more about China's current opinion of NK and how their govt's run these days. That's a big factor I'll admit I know nothing about. I have no problem admitting ignorance. What's more important to me is that we here at CA can talk about this stuff and share information while maintaining a level of respect. The respectful way to educate others is to suggest books and articles, not to call people out on not knowing enough.

    Kev, you're a great guy, a phenomenal artist, and we're all lucky to have you here, but you've been a bit of a flip-flopper on how you treat others. I remember how quickly you dropped a long argument, calling for an artists' brotherhood, when Djurdjevic weighed in on a debate. I also remember how quickly you dismissed and swore at Evil Disco in another political debate, which was out of character, and in poor taste. I like the artistic brotherhood idea better.

    Last edited by TASmith; June 9th, 2009 at 06:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cross View Post
    Let's see...we get more than half our imports from China. Perhaps a third or more of jobs here in America is dependent on China. So if we piss China off, the US economy will be totally destroyed. It was probably China's plan all along, to make other countries dependent on their imports. Also, we got most of our troops in Mideast and another war will severely put a strain on our defenses...yeah, we'd definitely lose in a war with NK/China.

    However, I'm all for nuking the North Korean government officials...they are evil and I think Kim Jong II should be stuffed into a chamber pot and shot out of a cannon.
    It goes both ways. Do you think that they would just stop exporting to the US and cripple themselves? I may be wrong about this but from my observation, when the US economy suffers, China's economy suffers as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggles View Post
    the country is Communist and it is led by a power-hungry, Communist tyrant.
    spoken like a very open minded person. NOT. let's kill them red devils! 9_9
    agreed about the communist tyrant part tho, but i think the word to stress here is TYRANT, no matter what his "political preference" might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJacks View Post
    It goes both ways. Do you think that they would just stop exporting to the US and cripple themselves? I may be wrong about this but from my observation, when the US economy suffers, China's economy suffers as well.
    Not to mention that they rely on Western investment in order to fund their economic expansion. Even ignoring nuclear MAD, a China-U.S. war isn't in anyone's interests.

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    Anyways, our prayers go out to the 2 captives.

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    Cthogua - This seems exactly like Orwell: the whole post-communism scenario, the all-present Big Brother party-leader, maybe they even have Newspeak The documentary itself isn't exactly free of ideology though.


    Ok, so most people here would not go to war with North Korea, based on economic ("we would be even more broke") and/or military ("we would get our asses kicked") considerations. So otherwise you would go to war or am I missing something here?

    Somehow I can't rid of the impression that we live our own Orwellian nightmare which we simply fail to perceive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJacks View Post
    It goes both ways. Do you think that they would just stop exporting to the US and cripple themselves? I may be wrong about this but from my observation, when the US economy suffers, China's economy suffers as well.
    Good point. I think that China would weather it better because they have most of our manufacturing jobs, and also resources. Remember that they are good allies of Russia who have ample supply of resources, including oil. US has lost most of the manufacturing jobs to China and elsewhere, and we don't have as much resources as we used to. Anyway, it's just a scenario that I think would happen if US gets involved in a war with NK and China decides to get involved as well on NK side. Probably won't happen that way...if the Chinese government is as smart as they think they are, they would not get involved and decide to spank Kim instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brashen
    Anyways, our prayers go out to the 2 captives.
    And to the citizens of NK who are starving and oppressed by their tyrannical government.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    TA, I'm not going to revisit old threads out of context. I still believe that art is a 'hood, as it always has been (see Art Spirit) and there are certain political viewpoints that arrive out of bigotry, paranoia, ideology, propaganda, and soft-headed fantasies, rather than a knowledge base (those tend to make me angry, as they are dangerous. Unfortunately, the net and politics in general is a breeding ground for such viewpoints.) I have been pretty consistent on these matters, which you should see. However, I can be swayed by arguments if they are good, as I have shown. The use of the childish political term "flip flopper" helps no one, and I have no idea how it applies to me. But thanks for the ad hominem.

    I did not say "let's invade NK" and I assume that is not what you meant by "onus." There is no "objective" sense of onus. The Onus falls on the people who both care, because they have something to lose or have a moral compunction, and have an ability to do something, because they have sufficient stability, power, and alliances. Thus the onus is definitely on the west, but not necessarily on China, which may not have anything to lose or a moral compunction or the ability to do something about NK, and not necessarily on Pakistan which is unstable and has a large percentage of their population who are more tribal than nationalistic (See Bhuto's assassination.) And I'm sure you know how involved we are in their current "offensive" operations. We prompted this current surge, not them. So if you know that we're intimately involved in what is going on in Pakistan right now, how can you say the onus is on them? It doesn't make sense. If the onus were on them, we wouldn't be there. And China has showed time and again that they are willing to sacrifice their people. And since they have no stable middle class to mount a serious campaign against their government, and nobody would dare invade them, they tend not to act in any moral way. They are machiavellian in the extreme, as their colonial efforts in Africa show, as their efforts to harm our economy in the past few years have shown, as their disinterest in pollution, intellectual copyright, or historical artifacts show. As their attempts at industrial espionage show. As their spies in the US have shown. They are not a moral actor on the world stage. They feel no "onus."

    The UN in NK. It seems the UN would rather spend its time destroying the U.S.'s reputation so the member states can get back to being petty (or not so petty) criminals. Notice how much the UN is doing to stop the genocide in Darfur. "Never again?" Right. The UN is not a moral institution and the inclusion of China and Russia is probably a major factor in that amorality. Its a debating society and a boondoggle.

    If you plan to continue reading your current sources, you might also want to try Thomas P.M. Barnett's blog: http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/ He's a Dem too, but as tough minded as they come, incredibly well informed, and has a very interesting take on the route forward.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; June 9th, 2009 at 08:47 AM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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