Fletcher: Colour Control
Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 37

Thread: Fletcher: Colour Control

  1. #1
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Fletcher: Colour Control

    Hopefully these are readable. first 2 chapters, more to come.

    Attached Images Attached Images                  
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  2. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Zazerzs For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  3. #2
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Chapter 3

    adding more as I have time. If you have any intrest in color this is a must read.. just sayin

    and there ya have it. I believe this will be extremely helpful to those who take the time.

    Attached Images Attached Images                                                        
    Last edited by Zazerzs; May 7th, 2009 at 01:14 AM. Reason: adding more
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  4. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Zazerzs For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    all done

    All done! I hope this helps those struggling with color and their pallets.

    Forgot to add the cover pages to give Frank Morley Fletcher the credit he deserves.

    If posting this is breaking rules then I apologize and will take it down. I just wanted to get this information to those have been searching for it.

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Zazerzs; May 7th, 2009 at 02:03 PM.
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  6. The Following 25 Users Say Thank You to Zazerzs For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  7. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    On the fringes of "acceptable" observation and commentary.
    Posts
    2,347
    Thanks
    255
    Thanked 136 Times in 60 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    This is a truly kind and generous thing you have done, Zazerz. It has been 80 years since the author's death, and this is being published here purely in an educational interest, not for profit or gain, so I do believe you are more than covered across the board, copyright wise.

    A sincere thanks to the author, Frank Morley Fletcher, as this is truly a nice little gem of color theory. I know I will enjoy reading it through and practicing...

    (If anyone else appreciates Zazerz's efforts, please click the little "Thanks" button in the lower RH corner of his post, so the Powers That Be can see the benefit of this...)
    ~M

    Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional
    I am The Choosen One!
    Jason sez: Draw more from Life!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to madster For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    104
    Thanks
    40
    Thanked 31 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    This book is fascinating, thank you very much, Zazerz!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Black Sun For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetid View Post
    This book is fascinating, thank you very much, Zazerz!
    Glad I could give back. If anyone has question about the books process please post them.

    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,354
    Thanks
    108
    Thanked 365 Times in 204 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I would really appreciate if this thread could be expanded a little.
    Like bringing some examples of color use und what the book shows in direct use.

    Why is it useful even for digital art to make up a color palett first ?

    And in how far can that affect my picture ?
    Usually I just start painting, trying a lot out and seeing what color or value works best. Then I try more like laying anothe layer over it and playing with the blend-options.... Until it comes to a point where I think it looks ok now.
    At the moment I think my way of working is some kind of messy.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Vaejoun For This Useful Post:


  14. #8
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaejoun View Post
    Why is it useful even for digital art to make up a color palett first ?
    And in how far can that affect my picture ?
    Usually I just start painting, trying a lot out and seeing what color or value works best. Then I try more like laying anothe layer over it and playing with the blend-options.... Until it comes to a point where I think it looks ok now.
    At the moment I think my way of working is some kind of messy.
    True the info about mixing colors when it comes to digital work doesn't apply that much. Since in digital format selecting a color is more choosing and sliding values instead of mixing.

    Where it helps digitally is controlling what colors you choose to add to a picture. With the key system Fletcher describes, you pick your key color and that then dictates what colors would go harmoniously together.

    I agree that some examples could help. here is a link to examples that have been done using this system.Its a collection of student work, included in the slideshow are paintings and exercises appling the Fletcher principles. Check em out.

    http://www.barnstonestudios.com/z/as...our/index.html (link is currently down, hopefully it will return soon 8/27/09)

    Last edited by Zazerzs; August 27th, 2009 at 03:11 PM.
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  15. #9
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    810
    Thanks
    187
    Thanked 1,366 Times in 319 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks for taking the trouble to scan this, Zazerzs. Do you know if the book made much of an impact anywhere when it was released? There don't seem to be many copies around secondhand.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to briggsy@ashtons For This Useful Post:


  17. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    481
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    It's amazing how there are a few things that enable a former Barnstone Student recognize another former Barnstone student. The Fletcher System is one of those things. There's several things Myron Barnstone has to offer that I haven't found in any other school. One is the Fletcher System. The Second is a thorough and intimate understanding of Classical Design related to the use of the Golden Section, Dynamic Symmetry, Sacred Geometry (whatever you wish to call it) and it's related design systems. One of his former students, Juliette Aristides, has two books out that contain a lot of his information. The third is an uncompromising attitude and the most exacting standards that really forces what he's teaching to become second nature.

    Thanks, Zazerzs, for sharing this information. When did you study with Myron? It's possible that I know you.

    It's true that this info won't really help digital painters in terms of color mixing, since digital color mixing is somewhat different. For anyone that works in more traditional mediums I would definitely recommend playing around with it as it helps one avoid mixing muddy color and gives one a range of really subtle and delicate neutrals that you can't get easily any other way. But play around in oils, as the slow drying time will really enable one to see all the possibilities without having to worry about the paint clumping up on you.

    For the digital artist I think it's still helpful in terms of color organization and color composition.

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to jpacer For This Useful Post:


  19. #11
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    @ briggsy I'm not sure. I'd like to know that too.I searched for a while to try to find an original, I've seen them rarely 2nd hand but they have been pretty expensive. I'm glad I held onto this photocopy for almost 20 years :0



    @jpacer ya got me! I hope he wouldn't be pissed with me sharing the info.

    100% agree. Myron changed my life.

    I was there around 92-93. Always wanted to go back but being on the west-coast since I left Coply has made it not possible.

    Last edited by Zazerzs; August 27th, 2009 at 03:08 PM.
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    ohh thanks for posting this! sometimes i forget my copy of it at school. I go to the Performing Arts High School and both of my teachers have studied with Barnstone. The Fletcher has improved my color mixes greatly, I'm in love with color nuances! now if only they had online color wheels so i wouldn't have to carry mine everywhere.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to StarInATeacup For This Useful Post:


  22. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Beijing, China
    Posts
    2,258
    Thanks
    470
    Thanked 594 Times in 233 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Killer addition to the knowledge base here on the site. Thanks a lot.

    Sepulverture's Sketchbook Page 1 Page 19
    Sepulvertures Extended Studies Page 1
    page 2

    Tutorials Tips and Tricks needs you to stay alive!"
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Sepulverture For This Useful Post:


  24. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    481
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I doubt he'd be pissed. As far as I know that text is public domain. The other, more well known, book by Fletcher on woodblock printing is even available at Project Gutenberg I believe (don't quote me on that). I like to think he'd appreciate the fact that the information is being spread around.

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to jpacer For This Useful Post:


  26. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    A bit late posting to this thread.

    Regarding the Fletcher Method. I think this method works best when used in conjunction with an observational method such as the Munsell system. At least when it comes to observational painting. While the text attempts a similar section, it is in many ways lacking comparatively. However I have found the book quite brilliant when dealing with the wonderful nuances of color harmony.

    Barnstone?

    While having not attended his atelier I am very familiar with what he teaches and he is an impressive man through and through. I am from the Chadds Ford area of PA and as such have met many students of his. What a wonderful intense place from what I hear. Here is quote his students might be familiar with:

    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to chromalgamation For This Useful Post:


  28. #16
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks, It's never to late

    I love that quote.

    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    80
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 32 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks a lot for posting this. As I prefer to sit and read things instead of looking at a computer screen I would like to print this, but when I try to save the images, I just end up with a rather empty attachment.php-file.

    Do you happen to have the images available for straightforward download somewhere?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to Camilla For This Useful Post:


  31. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    80
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 32 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The house nerd is now home from work and he taught me how to do it: Just rename the attachment.php-file and make it into a jpg-file instead.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  32. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    214
    Thanks
    86
    Thanked 102 Times in 94 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Wow thx Zazerzs! Keep em coming

    Visit my Sketchbook!!

    Don't forget to check out this hot SB too!!
    DSmith
    Seraph Fawkes
    Novbert


    Finally I met some fellow comrade from Indonesia
    witcrack
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to BluezAce For This Useful Post:


  34. #20
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Sorry for the late replies
    Camilla: I do have the pages scanned in at a much larger size but I don't have those posted anywhere, this was the largest size I could post,without splitting the pages. Are they ok to print?
    BluezAce: You're welcome!
    StarInATeacup : you mean this?

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Zazerzs; August 5th, 2010 at 02:59 AM.
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  35. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    115
    Thanks
    94
    Thanked 58 Times in 38 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    very cool book, thanks.

    On the topic of last chapter and music.
    As some might know, sound and light are waves, and tone of sound comes from wave frequency. So if we take light as waves and compare it's frequency to sound, there is about one octave of waves that human percepts with eyes.

    Fletcher's colors inside palette are white piano keys, and outside are black piano keys.
    The author says it's wrong to bind notes to particular colors, but ok to use colors in octave correlation.

    In the following source green is marked as "C" note
    http://www.lunarplanner.com/Harmonic...harmonics.html

    But can we rotate palette and make a red color as "G" major, or forget about green mark and count it as "C"? (sorry if wrong I'm not musician)

    Is it right to use rotated palette with not red as major? Does non-spectral magenta color require any special care?
    And if there are musicians, please share what you know of possibilities inside one octave.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  36. #22
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    22
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks very much. This book helped me a lot in organizing my palette. It is definitely a good starting point!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  37. #23
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks for the scan...awesome info. Here is a link to Myron's Colour Course intro http://vimeo.com/41986032

    Last edited by aloza; May 24th, 2012 at 08:52 AM. Reason: correction
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  38. The Following User Says Thank You to aloza For This Useful Post:


  39. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    481
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    First, read the book and watch the first class.

    To answer your questions:

    1. If you'd read the book and watched the video, you'd see that there's no set group of colors to use that are "better" than another. You choose your colors based on a) what key you want to work in and b)what "Intensity" you choose to tune your palette to (i.e. there are four basic levels of "Intensity" which you can tune your palette to. They are: High Intensity, Middle-High, Middle-Low, and Low Intensity). If you've read other color theory texts, when Fletcher (or Myron) use the term "Intensity" they're essentially talking about what other color theorists refer to as "Chroma." Also, when Fletcher uses the term "Temperature" he's essentially talking about "Hue." So, while Fletcher says "Temperature, Value, and Intensity" most people these days say "Hue, Value, and Chroma." Just FYI.

    EDIT: To clarify things a bit more: In a "High Intensity" palette you might lay out Cadmium Yellow, Cad Orange, Cad Red, Pthalo Blue, etc. In a "Middle-High Intensity" palette you would "tune" your colors by mixing Yellow Ochre with the Cad Yellow, Burnt Sienna with Cad Orange, and maybe Venetian Red with your Cad Red, etc. The general premise is that the palette is an instrument and should be "tuned" according to the needs of the piece.


    2. The easiest way to learn to use the system is to use a glass palette like he does in the video. Underneath the glass, place two sheets of paper. One should have the color wheel drawn on it and the other should have that geometric figure. The geometric figure should be on a separate sheet so you can rotate it when you want to change keys. If you don't have a glass palette then just draw the figure onto a paper palette.

    Then you mix along like they tell you to do. Because of the guidelines of the geometric figure you have a basic road map of where you're moving in color-space.

    Here's a palette I did in the key of Red_Yellow_Blue-Green. Hope it helps clarify things.

    Name:  key-of-r-y-bg.jpg
Views: 3073
Size:  300.4 KB

    Last edited by jpacer; May 23rd, 2012 at 03:21 PM. Reason: typos and clarification
    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  40. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jpacer For This Useful Post:


  41. #25
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aloza View Post
    Thanks for the scan...awesome info. Here is a link to Myron's Colour Course intro http://vimeo.com/41986032
    ?

    WHOOT! I've been waiting for this. I'm so glad he put this course to dvd.


    BUY IT NOW!

    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  42. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    16
    Thanks
    24
    Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Zazerzs View Post
    WHOOT! I've been waiting for this. I'm so glad he put this course to dvd.


    BUY IT NOW!
    I'd love to buy it. Is it available? I can't find it anywhere.

    I tried PMing you directly but it said I couldn't message the super moderators group (?) with less than 10 posts.

    Last edited by _jt_; May 22nd, 2012 at 12:30 AM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  43. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    481
    Thanks
    539
    Thanked 395 Times in 174 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    _jt_: I don't think it'll be available to the public until June 1st. There was a pre-order email sent out to former and current students, which is how we knew about it.

    Aladine Vargas is who manages the websites I think (there are 3 of them) and can be reached at "sales at barnstonestudios dot com." Send him an e-mail and tell him you're interested.

    Last edited by jpacer; May 22nd, 2012 at 01:08 AM.
    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

    Web, FineArt, Sketchbook
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  44. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jpacer For This Useful Post:


  45. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    16
    Thanks
    24
    Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by jpacer View Post
    Aladine Vargas is who manages the websites I think (there are 3 of them) and can be reached at "sales at barnstonestudios dot com." Send him an e-mail and tell him you're interested.
    Thanks! I just sent a message to that address.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  46. #29
    Zazerzs's Avatar
    Zazerzs is offline ....bing me the bore worms Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    866
    Thanks
    449
    Thanked 337 Times in 227 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
    Anatomy Thread
    Sketchbook
    Interested in learning more about color? Read this!
    Fletcher:Color Control
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  47. #30
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Barnstonians!!!! how cool is it too find yals.

    @Zazerzs and @jpacer thanks for promoting the system, the studios and Myron's life work. You are doing an awesome job --- keep it up.

    Thanks.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  48. The Following User Says Thank You to aladinevargas For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 29

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •