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I started this thread to ask the question: "why is it that when we say adult animation, the implication is that we are discussing a form of animated pornography?
I agree that there is a lot of animation and anime out there that is basically pornography. Basically, there has been a lack of clarification of what adult animation is. Mature animation is often thought of as adult animation but simply deals with adult themes.
For instance why are shows on CN in the adult swim slot considered not for children when some of the content is the same as shows that children view regularly on such shows as the Simpsons and Family Guy. In some instances these shows are more racy than those on adult swim.
The other mainstay is to classify anime as adult animation simply because it is anime. For instance, shows like Ghost in Shell would have much higher ratings on a weekday network TV timeslot than late at night to supposedly hide violent, adult, or intellectual themes behind the guise of being an adult.
So given this explanation, what exactly is adult animation, and how can we get more of it without persecution from those who would judge it by label as something based on pornography?
What's your point? I don't get it...
Anything by Ralph Bakshi is adult animation. And it's in no way porn. It has some sexual stuff, but it's no more than Family Guy does. If you don't know who he is, look up his stuff. He's amazing.
He does that kind of animation because that's what he knows. It's not Disney bullshit. I met him about a week or two ago, and he's an awesome person. He came to my animation classes and talked to us about all sorts of stuff. Seriously, if you like adult themed animation, he's the best. By far.
When someone mentions 'adult' media, it generally means pornographic material.
'Adult animation' could just be mature animation or it could be pornography.
It's just semantics.
Liolev in the beginning of my post I asked the question why is adult animation considered to be porn by the label itself. That was the point of my post.
Also, HunterKiller, I think that there is, or at least should be a black or white in asking about adult animation. Neither of these words, adult or animation has the word porn in it. So why is adult animation considered porn? For me there is just one or the other reality. Pornography can be quickly identified as something that promotes or is an appetizer to porn, whereas adult animation has nothing to do with that experience.
Oh anibawl, I envy you having met the man who seems to be the only noticeable figure to have created this niche. Could you please give a little bit more detail as to the content of his character. I have only seen interviews. Does have or plan on creating a studio. Are there any projects in the works?
Also I've found this animation reel from a studio in Costa Rica. Really great stuff that I think deserves the label of adult animation at times.
He was really cool. He talked to us for like 2 classes and told us about how he hated the fact that Disney was making films about animals doing silly stuff and pretending like there wasn't a War going on. He wanted to show more of the real stuff going on in the world. He grew up in Brooklyn so he said rough stuff was what he knew. :]
He lives like 20 minutes from where my college is and his son is my teacher. I read on the wiki that he's the one who funded my program. Animation is my major at NMSU.
I don't think there IS a clear boundary between what you may call children's animation and adult animation.
Some would say that "Reggady Ann" is not appropriate for children at all, because of it's
cruel and harsh allegory of each character to a certain type of person (the depressed camel, the greedy who's.. well.. greedy, the selfish narcissist little king).
Some would show their children the contents of (the amazing) Sylvain Chomet although others may think it's totally adult content.
Here's a quote I found on youtube about "Fritz The Cat" by Ralph Bakshi:
Again, the line is very thin.I used to watch a lot this movie as kid xDDDDD
About the context of adult animation to porn:
It is the most obvious thing to happen. It's the word "adult" which does the connection to porn.
For instance, when you say "adult content", the first thing you'll think about is, yup - porn.
I really didn't understand that quote Maybe I'd have to actually hear it.
Well, how many shows on adult swim, all of which have that "adult content, viewer discretion is advised" announcement, and none of them are porn... they have some sexual content, but not excessive or nasty. After seeing this same announcement thing for several years since Adult Swim's been airing, and NEVER seeing pornography in the cartoons, why do people still expect it?
It was said, but I think the connotation of the word "adult" that triggers the whole porn thing.
What I consider to be more relevant is why people instantly think of animated material as being childish. It just seams like anything in animated form carries the thoughts of a loony toons cartoon regardless of the subject matter. I think that is a more interesting point.
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thats a limitation of the american mindset that was fostered by disney but has since been supported by the public. anything thats in animated form must be for kids. its a simplistic mindset that says anything thats not for kids has to be adult and the only meaning for adut can be pornographic. the problem lies with the american mindset
Yeap yeap, I agree with that completely. Look at anime, there is a lot more DEPTH in those things than some ducks and mice getting conked on the head by falling objects. Also a lot of Russian animation has stuff about death that you would NEVER see in Disney.
America's view on animation is Disney... Disney in a weird way tainted animation as an art form. In the american culture at least.
The concensus seems to be that other countries have it better in terms of animation being appreciated. Some people seem concerned in a way about free expression seasoned with an acceptance of toon pornography as a legitemate attempt at adult animated content. The official Wiki definition seems to accept the fact that some forms of adult animation are pornographic, but the better part of the definition says that they carry mature themes.
Adult animation is a term used to describe animation that is targeted at adults. Animated films and television shows may be considered adult for a number of reasons. Some productions are noted for experimental storytelling and animation techniques, or sophisticated storytelling. Others may be noted for a use of risqué themes, portrayal of violence, or sexuality in a manner that is unsuitable for younger viewers. Many adult animations contain multiple aspects defining the work as adult. Some adult animation is pornographic, although not all adult animated features are pornography. The United States animation industry has long attempted to distinguish animation as a medium in which any story can be told because of the perception that animated works are intended for children, although animation industries in other countries do not have this distinction.
Tyree you seem to be stalking me throughout the forums, do you create animation or have a portfolio?
Just don't put the word "adult" in front of "animation" if you don't want pornographic connotations.
Animation is a technique. It says nothing about the subject matter. I personally don't think of "animation" as being directed at children. That's what "cartoon" is for.
If you need to specify that the animation is directed at an adult audience, then express that in a description, not a categorical title, which can be clunky and vague. (made evident by this discussion)
Or if you want to give it a categorical title, take it from film - eg. animated drama, animated comedy, animated action... these don't sound like kid stuff to me.
Maybe, but animation and cartoon have evolved into meaning the same thing, at least in the United States.
I have to agree and I've been bothered by this as well. I don't think entertainment should only be considered adult if it's porn, which is a mindset I noticed a lot of people have (and not only in America, mind you). I once asked some of my classmates how come older literature works are never illustrated, as if older audiences didn't like seeing pretty illustrations accompanying the content and the replies I got were pretty much along the lines of "Adult literature>Porn>lol>Porn" as if porn is the only form of entertainment an adult can have. So should we label Isaac Asimov's work as stuff for kids simply because it's not porn?
I dare say so
I think that as adults, if you consider yourself adult, we must support those animations which seem to have been made for that audience. This includes anime but more importantly, animations which don't seem to have actually been made by or for CHILDREN. It is easy to tell which is which just by listening to the voice actors or music. Acting which contains childrens voices or adults speaking as if they were children. I think you can rule out a lot of the anime based on this characteristic when you think about the acting in Akira vs. Dragonball type dialogue.
Right now Up is getting good reviews because it's the first time there are serious relationships between human characters in a Pixar film. Haven't seen this yet, but nonetheless, the style and theme are still meant to be an influence on children. On the other side of things, Transformers is utterly lacking in adult themes(compare the first traditionally animated one) yet is supposed to be for children. Yet, I think without great effort children even adults may have nightmares based on that seemingly innocent imagery.
If you are really concerned about doing something about the integrity and content of animation I think we must be a little deeper with our ideas. Trying not to repeat the same ideas. Everybody loves a good fight scene, a conflict, but think twice about the intelligent reasons why there might be disagreement. Sure it's good practice to have action done, but if you can; make people think WHILE the action is taking place, that is AWSOME!
Something that would be considered: too violent, bloody, drug/alcohol usage, sexual suggested themes, also something too close to reality, is "considered" adult animation. But like the others have mentioned before sometimes there really isn't a well defined line because lets face it some kids are exposed to these things anyways.
(Trust me if you thought watching Disney stuff was bad try taking the animation courses under them. I think they are the reason I have turned out to be so violent.)
If Adult Animation seems like the wrong word phrase to use, because it is misleading, what Alternate word should be used in its stead?
" You must experiment in order to gain the experience of life."-Rose
This is by no means a perfect solution, but one way to give a clearer idea of the content of an animation is by using the rating system of the Motion Picture Association of America.
G - "General Audiences." Appropriate for all ages. Often geared toward kids. No nudity, no drugs, no sex, minimal violence, and limited use of language that goes beyond polite conversation.
PG - "Parental Guidance Suggested" May have mild violence and/or action, mild language and sexual references, BRIEF nudity (revealing attire), intense images, sexual themes, crude humor or very mild drug references.
PG-13 - May contain moderate language, minimal strong language, some explicit nudity, intense violence, gore, or mild drug content. This is the highest unrestricted rating.
R - "Restricted." May contain very strong language or strong sexual emphasis, strong explicit nudity, strong violence and gore, or strong drug content.
NC-17 - "No Children under 17." May contain very strong sexual or offensive language, strong explicit nudity, very strong gore or disturbing violence, or graphic drug abuse. Films with this rating are usually edited to get a "R" rating.
Uhm... maybe this is more the case in america I guess.
and psibug I dont think its about the offensiveness of the content, but more about the complexity... children just wouldnt get the subject matter, because they dont have the kind of life experience or patience to understand the kind of thing.
The animations of jan svankmajer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdfCOCIv_DU and for a different example phil mulloy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlbLL2Koal4 or petrov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqSHyVVuy5g
these are examples of what I consider to be adult animation. You just wouldnt show these to your 6 yr old kid... they will like the pretty flikkering colours though
I never truely got the whole idea of having the ratings R and NC-17. They are both practically the same thing. Rated R you can't view without a person over the age of 17. But even though they are rare I have seen a very few amount with a NC Rating on them and I was told that you can't have a child view it reagardless if they have an adult with them. But usually those few are just shot straight to video and are not in theaters. But I am unsure if that is true or not.
" You must experiment in order to gain the experience of life."-Rose
Keep in mind that there was also Liquid Television, Aeon Flux, Beavis & Butt-head, South Park, Heavy Metal, Fire and Ice (Frank Frazetta film), and plenty of other adult market animated movies. As for the whole cartoons are just for kids deal; it wasn't just a by-product of Disney, but Hanna-Barbera as well.
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Yes I see the point of what you are saying, but most of the films and shows you mention are not fantasy films. Who besides Ralph Bakshi has made a fantasy film within recent memory? Of course there was Heavy Metal, I'll even give you FAKK 2000, which was mostly made in Korea. But basically there is nothing, withstanding a few of the 80's shows created by Filmation and select others that stand out as fantasy besides anime shows. I think Aeon Flux may even qualify.
So what is it that kids today are really longing for in animation besides anime or even machima given the fact that that is all they could possibly have seen. Nothing from early 80s aside from a few reruns of Hanna Barberra's shows on CN, and you also get a lot of super-hero jargon. Not really fantasy style animation if you ask me. In fact you can pretty much predict that if there are any animations coming in the future, they will probably be based on video games. And visa versa, you might predict the future and say Hollywood will go all anime. So say...an animation based on Metal Gear,(most likely anime), or a movie for Inu Yasha. very predictable. In short, there are NO fantasy, adult fantasy films in this reality.
Jesus, why are we hating on Disney so much? Disney features makes films they like, sometimes is more about money and they suck, sometimes its about a love of beautiful fluidity and storytelling. Who says we need to boil it down to silly animals and ignorance of current topics? They make films, they're entertainment, they entertain, the end.
And its not like they've been ignorant of what's going on their entire history. They made propaganda during WWII for instance.
And yeah its sad the term "adult" immediately connects to pornography, but it's not something thats just suddenly going to change. They're marketing to the general public, and the general public has a very stuck mindset.
On the other hand things are slowly changing, animation is breaking out of its kiddy shell in the mainstream media. Up for example had many mature themes and implications that Adults and young people alike caught on to. Brad Bird himself has said he wouldn't take his 5 year old to see "The Incredibles" And hundreds of amazing and intellectual short films have been shown every year at film and animation festivals around the world and respected as mature film making, with never a connection to sexual content.
Changing the mindset of the general public is a slow and painful process, one that's just starting for animation. You have to remember, as individuals we are smart, but as a group, we can be pretty stuck in our ways.
In America (at least) animation is overwhelmingly viewed as a medium for children, due in large part to Disney and probably some to the old Hollywood system. The Simpsons was probably the first prime time (western) cartoon not aimed at children, and anime is breaking into the American markets. Because of these that generalization is breaking down, but it will be slow.
Anime is generalized as being more adult oriented because 1) most animes that make it to America ARE adult oriented, and two...
When people see a children's cartoon they think nothing of it. When they see a cartoon where a man with a sword cuts another man's legs off and blood shoots out, they ask "what in god's name is this?!" The response is, "It's anime." Therefore, people unfamiliar with anime associate it with violent / lascivious content.
The term 'adult animation' basically means pornography for the same reason that 'adult movie' basically means pornography: because if it's specifically for adults, then it's specifically NOT for children. In general, America (at least) views violence as more acceptable to show to children than sex, so a violent movie might just be a movie. A sex-filled movie would be an 'adult' movie.
Tips: try referring to it as 'mature' animation, so people don't think you're talking about porn. Recommend mature animation to people unfamiliar with it, or straight up invite them over to watch it. If you want to be an animator, MAKE some of it in your spare time. Put it on youtube. Chances are it's going to happen anyway, since most good animators now are familiar with mature animation, and new generations are getting familiar with it.
disney "bullshit" ? what exactly do you mean by this? i respect disney animations quite a bit.
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