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  1. #1
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    I need to finish this

    Hey there!
    I'm struggling a bit with this picture.
    My major problem is that I cannot tell when my pictures are finished and from a certain point on, I don't know what to do next. And this is now. Should I render it more? How much should I render the wheat ...?
    I also have problems in making my pictures look interesting and.. er, yeah, as a friend once told me, my pictures are not "pretty" and interesting in terms of composition, colours and lighting. I'm trying to improve that.

    Maybe someone can help.
    thanks!

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  2. #2
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    Razorleaf is offline "Moving Forward" each and every day :) Level 8 Gladiator: Thracian
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    I think this is lovely. I would like to see some more crisp colors added for definition and maybe a few hard edge strokes to define her form but overall this is very nice.

    "Creativity emerges only when the imagination is given the freedom it deserves."
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    Yeap I agree with "crisp colors", maibe some red poppy or scarf hair, and try to throw some light definition in the shadowed eye, also the right hand make some tangent and its not clear if hold a scarf in that hand or it belong to the dress.

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    AvisNocturna,

    I agree with Razorleaf, it's lovely.

    What I'm wondering about is the balance of the picture.
    The weight is on the right side, the girl and the clouds.
    The only balance are the birds in the background and the bush.
    This makes the left side look empty and not interesting.

    At the same time the girl is looking at something at the left (not the birds, those are too far behind her). So when I follow where she looks I get in this empty not interesting spot and my eyes wander off the painting.

    I think this is fixable by adding more weight in the left corner, perhaps by adding more wheat and making it slightly brighter. I'm not sure of it though, it might draw the attention away from the girl.
    Something else that might work is a branch or something there. Something that pulls attention inward agian, to the space between the girl and the birds.

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    Thanks a bunch! That helped a lot!

    Here's where I am now:

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    I would resize the head to slightly smaller, like so

    Also the eyes appear a bit odd, she appears to be looking really far back but her eyes are not there so i changed that.


    Mmm on a side note her hand seems slightly too clenched for just running

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    Last edited by brandnewyork20; April 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 AM.
    im trying.
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    Brandnewyork's paintover is quite nice. However -- the smaller head makes the girl look older. Just something to consider when you decide whether to implement it or not.

    I'm enjoying the enigmatic nature of the picture. It makes me want to know more about what's going on. For this reason, I don't think we need to see what she's looking at or what she's running from. But I agree that the left side still needs something. Perhaps a dark shadow, pointing back into the picture, to hint at what is going on without hitting us over the head with it.

    "Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it" -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
    What I'm wondering about is the balance of the picture.
    The weight is on the right side, the girl and the clouds.
    The only balance are the birds in the background and the bush.
    This makes the left side look empty and not interesting.

    At the same time the girl is looking at something at the left (not the birds, those are too far behind her). So when I follow where she looks I get in this empty not interesting spot and my eyes wander off the painting.

    I think this is fixable by adding more weight in the left corner, perhaps by adding more wheat and making it slightly brighter. I'm not sure of it though, it might draw the attention away from the girl.
    Something else that might work is a branch or something there. Something that pulls attention inward agian, to the space between the girl and the birds.
    ^^ Hi there
    i'd like to add:
    It looks as if the girl is running away from something, as if she needs to do something fast..like inform someone of an accident..or find shelter

    Which just gave me an idea .. hehe

    You can add a burning windmill or a lightling bolt with tiny breeze of rain over the painting or something which strikes your head when you look at the picture, so that you can balance out the weight of items in your canvas as said above by Jos (remember to place it somewhere to give an impression to the viewer that The girl in the image is concerned about the far object

    (hope you understood what i was trying to imply)

    Thanks and take care

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    Bring the birds closer to the center for a tighter composition. Looking great so far though!

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    V Gaicomo points out 'value' to make it pop! (Brilliant, I'm totally missing that point in my pieces)

    You could give 'divine proportions' a go if you're not already doing so.
    Check out the thread for the overlay that I use.
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=154580

    (I would play around with)
    -Perhaps a fence to the slope of the land.
    -Cloud shapes/colour/mood
    -Wheat wind gust
    -Sharpen tool on her face>dress>fence>clouds

    (I'm a beginner, so caution behehehe)
    -Some gentle sunlight/dust/smaller marks to lead the eye around
    would be my take.
    -I would render out a different shape to the clouds if I didn't want to
    add any more elements.

    I'd finish off the piece with a bit of sharpening ('R' in Photoshop) on
    the focus'. (face/dress/wheat) Hardbrush at 20%. (pic. 3)

    Suggestions only, but I hope you finish it to your liking.

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    Looks good.

    Random thoughts: the composition's looking a bit monotonous because it's just two masses: a big dark mass at the bottom and a big light mass on top. Also, in my opinion, the girls a bit too close in value to the wheat field to really pop out the way she needs to. The poppies might benefit from being brighter too.

    JPEG attached...I'm sorry I'm not more articulate tonight, but hopefully my adjustments will be of some help to you.



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  21. #12
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    thanks a lot everyone!
    I think I have to re-read all your suggestion a few times more to decide what step I'll take next.

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    I agree entierly with Giacomo, and the idea of working with the devine proportions covers just about everything I was thinking.
    One other thing that I personally could add a lot to this piece, in a small way, would be to add some sharper little touches. Defining the closet heads of grain, really putting some finiky detail into a couple of the heads would make them seem a lot closer, not detailing the whole head, but edges of the grain, and possibly adding some sharper definition and detail to the frills of the girl's shirt perhaps. Something to draw the eye a little, make it so that to see everything, the veiwer has to look across it longer to take everything in.

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    Nakadai Shimada: thanks for the suggestions, I see what I can do

    Here's where I got so far:

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  25. #15
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I played around a bit with this... Tried to give more interest to the left back part in order to balance the drama. I added a lake to explain the weather conditions and added a lot more red as a symbolic "goal" for the girl, as if she were escaping a dull gray life for something more passionate. I also added color to her face and squished it around a bit to try to give a more girlish look to it. I also shrunk the head a bit. I also tried to add painterliness, lost and found edges, and tried to give the picture an overall sense of gestural movement to the right as the girl flees. The hands and forearms were a bit awkward so I've tried to give them a more feminine gesture. I think it is better to get the gesture right, the grace of the arms and the gracefulness of her features than finish off all sorts of detail that is awkward.

    You should check out Zorn. A lot of what I did here, assuming its worth two cents, is based on planar thinking. I would recommend George Bridgman's anatomy books on that front.

    Best,
    kev

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    Last edited by kev ferrara; April 4th, 2009 at 07:18 PM.
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    Avis, your latest looks very nice ^^

    Kev, your work looks like a complete painting ^^ and i like the levels of shade

    Lets see what Avis thinks XD

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  29. #17
    Razorleaf's Avatar
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    I love the additions you've made Avis, they are soft and warm and suit this painting nicely.

    Kev, although lovely, your style creates a whole new feel for this piece and puts the viewer in a whole different mind-set.

    "Creativity emerges only when the imagination is given the freedom it deserves."
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    I've never tried working on a square canvas before.

    But http://photoinf.com/Golden_Mean/John...olden_mean.htm
    Is where my journey starts for 'compositions for a square canvas,'
    and perhaps another reference for you or just to fire more ideas.


    I would play around with
    -the fence' scale and colour. I would have used a lighter value on a
    more flat contoured land. Just to break up that flat/grey gradient opposite
    the girl. The fence I was thinking more of just indications. Just short little
    whitish stumps fighting the early noon light.




    However, what kev ferrera did is brilliant. Just by adding the lake, changed the angle of
    the land, broke up the greyish parts and transitions to the clouds
    nicely in my eyes. The gap in the clouds on the horizon, very nice. I'm blown away.

    And as Giacomo added, the value of the girl and wheat field are still too close.
    kev ferrera changed the girls value on his work over and with the warming colours.



    I would love to see this piece finished. Complete with all your symbolisms/feelings/colours/mood ecetera ecetera

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  33. #19
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    kev ferrara: wow, thanks for the overpaint. its beautiful. However, I think this is not where I want to go, espeacially not the lake, although it really looks pretty. I used it as an inspiration, though. I tried to google Zorn, but I didn't get anything useful. The Bridgman's on my desk already, but I think it will take some more pratice until I know that whole anatomy stuff by heart

    thanks to dwardo, ShuvoYoshi and razorleaf as well!

    and of course another update. phew.

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    mm I think its coming up really well.. I think you still need to sharpen up some of the image. I would sugest the poppy at the front left needs detail. as well as more detail on the head grains on the lower right. Sharpen up some of the details on her dress currently its just like a hazyness you cant tell where the bottom and back of it is and you have. Same with the red ribbons trailing behind her. They blend into the background.. sharpen that up a little.

    Her right hand is clenched still inappropriately. I really love how she is holding her dress with her left. Perhaps just raise the dress so she is holding it with her the other hand.

    Last but not least. I think you should along with sharpen the dress remember that the crop is usually quite high if she is indeed running through a farming field the cain would almost come up to her knees if not above in real life (I dont suggest you come up to high) but I do suggest you break up the bottom of her skirt with the field coming up on her a little. It will give a more realistic impression as well as make her feel a little bogged down, like she is struggling to run through the crop.

    To help you on your way... a few reference photos



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    I'm still not too keen on the size of the fence, probably just their width/circumference I guess.
    Up close they would be like massive blocks.

    The left side still has a gradient look to it (Value/elements.)
    It could use something meaningful to your whole piece, but also
    serve as an interest/break to the flat values???.


    Btw, regarding when you would consider this finished?
    I'd call it finished when all the roughs have been worked over.
    The story and intentions are there, along with the fine balance of composition/colour/mood/gestures.
    (The above is my opinion btw, I've yet to read a lot of theory on what makes a nice art piece)

    So yeah, just the left side for now (in my eyes) oh and the transition
    that goes back to her face, eyes. There's a gap in between the birds and
    her face that feels empty (in my eyes).

    [I'm sorry I've no clues as to how to help you, , as I'm kind of
    at that situtation still]. I've so many WIPs it's not even funny anymore.

    Last edited by vardoburrito; April 6th, 2009 at 12:52 PM.
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    AvisNocturna,

    I'm going to comment some on the girl's right arm.
    Leggraphics is right, the hand is off, when clenched the hand makes a 90 degree angle, your's is larger.

    But I've noticed something that bothers me more. In your last picture the right shoulder is off, it looks like it's moved forward. When running the arm is used to balance the body, when moving backward the shoulder also moves backward. And the opposite leg moves forward. This was less visible in the earlier pictures but the problem was already present there. Besides that, now she has the shoulder of a body-builder....

    When I get home I might try to work out some minor improvements on the background without breaking the picture as much as kev's surgestion.

    Edit: ok, I got home and did some work on this picture.
    I've marked 4 spots, 1 blue and 3 red. The image is B&W, resized to 50% of the original.
    The blue part is too bright for the picture. It's easy to fix this with a Burn tool, very large brush and very low exposure (5-7%).
    The reason is that stuff in the background will usually reflect less light to your eyes as stuff in the foreground, so it should be darker.

    The red areas are too flat. They have one equal value in B&W. With the slightest breeze wheat will make patterns, creating more value differences. This one is harder to fix though, I've not managed to do that with my limited PS skills. The same goes for the cloud. It lacks mass, body.

    To get this view I just made a Black and White adjustment layer on your picture and made a copy of the picture's layer for some testing.

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  39. #23
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    Thanks again for your critique guys! It really is helpful.

    I really don't know what to do about her arms/hands... I repainted them about 30 times now and I'm still not sure if they fit (I guess they don't)

    Anyways, I think i'm just making it worse tonight. So I'll leave that for tomorrow.

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    the hands are much better... much much better. I think what's throwing you out it still the shoulder. I am unsure if its because the sleeve is much darker than the other or the fact it still looks like the shoulder bone is popping out towards us. I think maybe lowering a little, removing the 'roundness' on the top of the shoulder might fix it.

    Btw- love the progress in the forground on the poppy and grains

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    Leggraphics,

    You could be right about the roundness. When you would run with both hands in front of you, because you are for example holding something in both hands, you can't make a full running movement.
    Still, for balance you will move your shoulders and hands.

    On the right side there is a shadow line that is too thick on top of the shoulder, between her hair and the cross on her necklace.
    This somewhat seperates the arm from the body and also indicates that the lighter part must be round, else the shadow can't be this way.
    Tighten this line and tone down the highlight on the shoulder might fix it.

    What I think might also help is pushing the left shoulder forward and up a little.
    I'm not sure how this will effect the arm though.
    Unfortunately I have no time to make a sketch for this today, at least not till the evening.

    Edit: Did a quick analysis while waiting for a colleague at work.
    Red is horizon and perspective lines.
    Blue are the horizontal guidelines, upper on right shoulder, lower on left shoulder.
    Yellow is the way her upper body seems to angle.
    As you can see the left shoulder is too low for both.

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  42. #26
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Avis Nocturna... you need to get away from this piece for a while and get back to dreaming it a bit. Sit down someplace, quietly, with only your own thoughts to guide you and close your eyes and try to see this composition in your head. Spend a good long time just dreaming this piece again. Dream the light, the color, the background, what she is doing, who she is, the lay of the land. Somewhere in your mind this picture is real... It is your imagination that will present you with the answers.

    kev

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  44. #27
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    Janos is offline Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on Fu! Level 10 Gladiator: Equites
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    Vast improvement going on here. I guess my fellow members have said already way more helpful advice, but I just wanted to point out a lovely little detail that just made the image for me. The shadow of the cross necklace is beautiful. Is it weird to find that amazing? Perhaps...

    Cheers

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    yeah, dude keep working on it this is looking good and U got some great feedback.

    Drawing, painting, creating...
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    I think kev hit the right size for the head Avis. If anything, I think it'll help to at least keep the size in. Just a thought from someone who saw this piece just now.

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    I'm no expert on composition and such, but so far it's great image, and definately improved from the first version. The hints of bright red really bring out the picture, it's great. Personally, I think it's close to being called complete. Great stuff!

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