I have submited to the will of CA. But why does critiques still feel bitter?
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Thread: I have submited to the will of CA. But why does critiques still feel bitter?

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    Unhappy I have submited to the will of CA. But why does critiques still feel bitter?

    I have been feeling torn lately. I know critz are what is good for me and growing as an artist but, they still string and hurt me. Kind of like when you are eating something very yummy and it has a bad after taste, that just ruins the whole experience of eating the food. I didn't want to feel like this, I want to get crit and apply to my work, and improve. It just can't be soo easy I guess. I want this feeling to go away but I'm not quite sure how to deal with it.
    Any suggestions?

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

    Sketchbook:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=229693
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    Been there. Sometimes, it's just because you've put so much effort into trying to get everything correct, only to find out you're so off the mark it's not even funny. My way of dealing with the initial sting is to get back to my studies and then try to figure out why I got critiqued for that and that, etc.... It will hurt sometimes, but I try to steer that pain into further advancement, so that eventually, I'll stop being critiqued for that issue. (Others will arise, but then it's a rinse-and-repeat cycle). Hopefully by then, your skin will be so tough that it doesn't elicit the same response anymore.

    You can tell when it really doesn't bother you when you'll willing to start a piece anew. To cast the old aside and redraw it because you know it'll turn out better after someone else pointed out mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShroudStar View Post
    Been there. Sometimes, it's just because you've put so much effort into trying to get everything correct, only to find out you're so off the mark it's not even funny. My way of dealing with the initial sting is to get back to my studies and then try to figure out why I got critiqued for that and that, etc.... It will hurt sometimes, but I try to steer that pain into further advancement, so that eventually, I'll stop being critiqued for that issue. (Others will arise, but then it's a rinse-and-repeat cycle). Hopefully by then, your skin will be so tough that it doesn't elicit the same response anymore.

    You can tell when it really doesn't bother you when you'll willing to start a piece anew. To cast the old aside and redraw it because you know it'll turn out better after someone else pointed out mistakes.
    Thanks, I will try and do that !!!!

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

    Sketchbook:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=229693
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    If it turns out that is the case (that you've put a great deal of effort into a finished image that get's torn up by crits), maybe you should try doing looser sketches and working on your foundations. That way you avoid putting "your heart and soul" into something that is still not up to scratch, and the crits won't sting as much... while still helping you get better?

    I'm sure a wise man once said something like "time spent working on the basics, is time saved working on sub-par finished work"

    Good luck and stick to it!

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    I think you might be taking the criticism too personally. Yeah it sucks when you work real hard on something and you're proud of it and then someone tells you there's a million things wrong with it, but that type of stuff will not only make you better at art, but anything really.

    If someone harshly criticizes your work, keep in mind that it's in fact your work and not you they're criticizing and they're trying to help you not insult you by doing so. Unless they actually are trying to insult you in which case all the more reason not to let them get to you

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    Quote Originally Posted by kab View Post
    If it turns out that is the case (that you've put a great deal of effort into a finished image that get's torn up by crits), maybe you should try doing looser sketches and working on your foundations. That way you avoid putting "your heart and soul" into something that is still not up to scratch, and the crits won't sting as much... while still helping you get better?

    Good luck and stick to it!
    !!!!!!! thanks!!

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

    Sketchbook:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=229693
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    When I was a small child I noticed people had problems separating the merits of a work of art from the merits of the artist (fanboying people because they are good musicians, et cetera). Now I know people do this even more with themselves.

    Why would you feel hurt if they criticize your art, I kind of see my art as independently from myself, it's like any art by thirds for me, trust me, it works, you'll see what's wrong with it more and you don't feel hurt, nor praised, by what others think about it.

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    Just a thought, it might help to put your art away for a little while and then post it for crits.

    I know when I've just finished a painting and am still riding that wave of elation and pride, it can be a pretty big blow back to reality when you get critiqued hard.
    It's understandable...when it's fresh, it's like a new baby.
    Put it in a closet for a few weeks and distance yourself (not recommended with babies), and only then put your art up here.
    I guarantee you'll be more objective when people are critiquing, and even be able to pick out flaws yourself. Shit won't faze.

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    Oden has better advice than I, follow his lead and torture ritually and satanically for my failure.

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    here's some quotes from art&fear. you should buy and read that excellent book.

    “Nonetheless, the belief persists among some artists (and lots of ex-artists) that doing art means doing things flawlessly—ignoring the fact that this prerequisite would disqualify most existing works of art. Indeed, it seems vastly more plausible to advance the counter-principle, namely that imperfection is not only a common ingredient in art, but very likely an essential ingredient”

    “To demand perfection is to deny your ordinary (and universal) humanity, as though you would be better off without it. Yet this humanity is the ultimate source of your work; your perfectionism denies you the very thing you need to get your work done.”

    “To require perfection is to invite paralysis. The pattern is predictable: as you see error in what you have done, you steer your work toward what you imagine you can do perfectly. You cling ever more tightly to what you already know you can do – away from risk and exploration, and possibly further from the work of your heart. You find reasons to procrastinate, since to not work is to not make mistakes.”

    edit: to expand on that, it might be that you are getting a bit too attached to the works you do..you dont have to create an amazing personal and emotional piece of art every time, it can be a cold study just for a technique, to learn something new or just for its own sake. once you detach from your work it'll be a lot easier to receive a critique as it'll concern only the work itself, rather than feeling it addressed to the artist as a person.

    Last edited by Shard; March 30th, 2009 at 06:57 AM.
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    The more you draw, the more efficient you become. After you reach certain level in that, doing several versions of single character is not a big deal. It doesn't take much time. You don't loose patience. You can expect to do the same painting three times from scratch before you even start anything. You can fix complicated problems in several minutes.

    It's then easy not to get attached to the work and you can take crits without problem.

    Conclusion? Draw more.

    Last edited by Farvus; March 30th, 2009 at 07:20 AM.
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    vayne108,

    As others already pointed out, it has to do with attachment.
    Loosen up a little, don't ask for critique the moment you finished, try to look for things that are 'off' yourself before posting.

    Don't take critique too personal, it's not failure.
    When you were young and learned to walk, you must have fallen lots of times. That's not failure, falling is part of learning to walk.

    One thing you should consider is if critique is based on foundation.
    It's the basic skills that make someone good. Things like proportion, placement, perspective, planes (light and shade) and pattern (thanks mr. Loomis).
    If critique is about the basics, practice them. And if the basics are good, also practice them. You can never do them enough.
    A good friend of mine is a decent flute player. But she still practices the basics very regular. Not because she bad at them, but because they are the foundation of every piece of music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
    Not because she bad at them, but because they are the foundation of every piece of music.
    False, how about music with no flutes, or music with no heptatonic scale, or music outside the twelve-tone equal temperament... music with no melody or rhythm to begin with?

    It all exists, it might seem off topic but it's to demonstrate that there is no universal foundation of 'every piece' of any-thing at all.

    I'd personally say don't practice the basics, in fact, don't practice any technique, learn to synthesize knowledge, learn to make techniques and provide creative solutions where the problem demands it. Give a man a fish or teach a man how to fish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    Give a man a fish or teach a man how to fish?
    But why reinvent the wheel?



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    Quote Originally Posted by GaussianRaider View Post
    But why reinvent the wheel?
    There are different types of wheels fit for different types of roads my padawan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    I'd personally say don't practice the basics, in fact, don't practice any technique, learn to synthesize knowledge, learn to make techniques and provide creative solutions where the problem demands it. Give a man a fish or teach a man how to fish?
    Vayne
    If you would like to be a better artist,
    do not follow Frublz advice.

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    If you want to take use in reading don't follow any person's advice or believe any thing they say until they give arguments, actually.

    Techniques are for artists who have a 'style', it's so dull, they learnt a thing once they didn't even invent themselves and keep re-applying it and actually have to 'learn' to make another 'style'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    Techniques are for artists who have a 'style', it's so dull, they learnt a thing once they didn't even invent themselves and keep re-applying it and actually have to 'learn' to make another 'style'.
    Art doesn't work that way, please start over.

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    What is it that bothers you about the critiques you're getting?

    Even if other people find fault with your work, remember that you're drawing for yourself and not for anybody else. When your critics start paying your bills, then what they say really does matter. Until then, dilute their words until it's constructive to your work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    If you want to take use in reading don't follow any person's advice or believe any thing they say until they give arguments, actually.

    Techniques are for artists who have a 'style', it's so dull, they learnt a thing once they didn't even invent themselves and keep re-applying it and actually have to 'learn' to make another 'style'.
    You are so far from wrong I can't even begin to explain why.



    Back to the topic though, developing a little bit of a thick skin is important. Keep asking for crits, and try to listen to them objectively. These are crits on the artwork, not personal attacks. Remember, even good artwork can have flaws, it's no crime. Getting better at art is a matter of continually working on your weaknesses, while taking pride in what you do well.

    A good crit offers a balance of things you have done well with the harsher statements. Part of the art of giving crits is to be balanced. Sometimes we fall into bad crit habits just shooting off the negatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz
    False, how about music with no flutes, or music with no heptatonic scale, or music outside the twelve-tone equal temperament... music with no melody or rhythm to begin with?
    Ok, leave the flute part out and we should have a discussion on what defines music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz
    It all exists, it might seem off topic but it's to demonstrate that there is no universal foundation of 'every piece' of any-thing at all.
    That's a matter of definition. Without definition and context nothing really exists at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz
    I'd personally say don't practice the basics, in fact, don't practice any technique, learn to synthesize knowledge, learn to make techniques and provide creative solutions where the problem demands it. Give a man a fish or teach a man how to fish?
    Teaching a man to fish is giving basic knowledge of what a fish is and how they behave, where they live, where they are most likely to be cought and what methods are applied to catch them.
    What you seem to be doing is pointing at the ocean and stating there are fish in there, go figure out how to catch them yourself.

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    The answer is in your question. You have submitted. That's not acceptance. Submission is giving into something...by being forced. Accepting is understanding where the crit comes from and how it applies to your art, without feeling forced.

    You had many useful tips in this thread. CA can point out whatever is wrong and keeps doing so, but until you learn to accept and understand, your progress will be limited by the feeling of submission, cos you don't really 'get' what's there to fix. There's nothing we can do about that, that's something you will have to figure out how to change. Getting more experience, learning different, meeting other people... those are things that help you grow, but it will always be in your own pace.

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    Techniques are for artists who have a 'style', it's so dull, they learnt a thing once they didn't even invent themselves and keep re-applying it and actually have to 'learn' to make another 'style'
    every artist has a style, even those trying to figure out how to get one. Maybe you meant to say "technique is for artists with an inspiring, enjoyable, and recognizable style". Or maybe the purest art form is giving finger paints to a monkey. It's all opinion really, and I do like monkeys...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    There are different types of wheels fit for different types of roads my padawan.
    And they're all fucking round.

    People seeking help in here are frequently impressionable. Don't give advice if you either have no idea what you're talking about or just want to throw out bits of your personal philosophy like some college kid in a coffee shop who just got out of their first ethics course.

    Please leave your black beret at the door.

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    Pretty good advice regarding taking and dealing with critiques so far. It's something that's absolutely crucial. You need to learn to love the process, the journey, rather than the destination. I had a teacher early on that said something to the effect of, "Don't consider your work to be precious, that kind of attitude will ultimately choke off your growth because you'll be to afraid to mess up your "masterpiece" and you're going to make a whole heaping pile of bad art on the way to making anything good so learn to love the process, because that's the living part of art making."

    On another note. An obnoxious trend I've noticed on internet art communities is disguising douchebaggery as legitimate criticism. Harsh criticism of someone's work is the best thing you can do for them. Giving them the knowledge of their faults and failures is invaluable, as it forms a road map to improvement. However there is absolutely no excuse for rudeness, character attacks, or other infantile name calling. The reality is some people get off on being assholes/trolls/whatever, and this culture of harsh criticism gives them a shield to hide behind whenever someone fires back. Being rude or disrespectful to someone while giving them criticism, even honest, actual insight, is a sure fire way to ensure your insight falls on deaf ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frublz View Post
    If you want to take use in reading don't follow any person's advice or believe any thing they say until they give arguments, actually.

    Techniques are for artists who have a 'style', it's so dull, they learnt a thing once they didn't even invent themselves and keep re-applying it and actually have to 'learn' to make another 'style'.
    Interpreted:

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    --- Frank Herbert, Dune - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

    Check out my Sketchbook! Critique and Criticism welcomed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oden View Post
    Just a thought, it might help to put your art away for a little while and then post it for crits.

    I know when I've just finished a painting and am still riding that wave of elation and pride, it can be a pretty big blow back to reality when you get critiqued hard.
    It's understandable...when it's fresh, it's like a new baby.
    Put it in a closet for a few weeks and distance yourself (not recommended with babies), and only then put your art up here.
    I guarantee you'll be more objective when people are critiquing, and even be able to pick out flaws yourself. Shit won't faze.
    What awesome advice!!!!! I hugz you!!

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

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    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=229693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    Vayne
    If you would like to be a better artist,
    do not follow Frublz advice.
    Yeah, argeed.

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

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    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=229693
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    Smile

    OMG, thanks you guys !!!!!! I've never imaged so many people would answer. I feel I could never thank you enough. I will try to deattrach from my work even though it will be hard for me, because my whole life it's the only thing I've ever been good at. With out art I just an average nobody. IT time I hope to gain and thick hide and grow some muscle . For now I'm going to cool off a bit before practicing more basics. Hugz for everyone who has given me there time and kind words *hugz**hugz**hugz*hugz*

    Critiques on my work always welcome!!

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    People in here crit because they "believe in your ability to improve". A crit is better than just someone flicking through your work not giving a damn.

    But that should not mean crit's are to be taken seriously. To handle criticism does not imply taking it in, it's like cricket, you can block it, hit it for a six, but sometimes you get bowled out. In a bowl out you just need to give yourself a few days. Not all honest crit's are useful either even if they bowled you. Some crits are evil, but then again there's no rule only that you need to be able to trash or use the ones that's helping. Some are lies and sometimes that too can have a good effect, remember that, certain truth's needs to be dealt with at some stage and you can't be dependent on a support group all the time, and sometimes you need them so always appreciate them. Some critics enjoy the moment but you know how Karma and Murphy works together. One day you are ahead the next day you are an ass.

    Stuff that people don't have to mention with every crit they give: "This is an opinion and reflects my personal view, however delusional, real, generic or self opinionated it may be. I might have my direction in mind and not necessarily yours"
    You don't want your work to look like a 1000 other people's work, or maybe you do.

    Be glad that the crits in here is lawless, because a safety zone would make you weak, at some point you might enter a occupation, situation etc where it is jungle rules, so exposure is good.

    The rest is playground stuff, if they all jump in or whatever, not really the most fun situation to end up in but if you have something important to you that you are obviously are clinging to then it's kinda fun to play around it until you maybe figure it out. Don't make anything too important, ever. ego = self importance. To defeat the energy say "O my greatness" in a sarcastic tone to yourself and see how it affects you 90% of the time you might find you feel better all of a sudden. Then you know what it was. Some personal power there.

    The world is a stage. Remember that and a few serious fools don't notice it. Some even go so far as to perform the ultimate fools drama, the suicide.

    No one is perfect, we all roll in ups and downs struggling with our ego's, karma and murphy trying to teach us.

    Last edited by George Abraham; March 30th, 2009 at 03:08 PM.
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