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  1. #1
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    Arrow Translating Bammes on ice

    PLZ read last post


    well, well…I just got hold of the anatomy book "Der Nakte Mensch" by Gottfried Bammes and I was browsing the forums about the book before…and apparently there is no english version (? correct me if Im wrong, will you?)
    as I am one of the blessed human beings talking&writing both, english and german I though, hey why dont you do something for the community that has (already) done sooo much for you?
    of course, Ill only do that if it wasnt done before and if some pplz want this. I think the books still great without the text, but its really lovely extra information.

    just yell in here, Im willing to serve the community

    have a good one
    Last edited by Φ; April 15th, 2009 at 03:56 AM.
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    Nettle_Mountain - walnut - SamC - Walid D - Nrx - Dilated - FraserMcT


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  4. #2
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    btw. Its a biiiig book(around 400 pages), this would take a while. I cant say how long, Ill try and translate the first chapter…and see if it id possible
    also, Ill leave some stuff, index for ex…etc, ok?
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  6. #3
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    I would appreciate it. I have always wondered what the writing was like, the pictures are fantastic. It would be funny if it was the opposite of Loomis, like he's an advocate of guessing proportion and eyeballing perspective. 400 pages filled with insults to the reader and overall defeatism. Good luck, man.

  7. #4
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    I would also like to help if I can. Granted I'm not fluent in German but I need to brush up on it anyway
    Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die

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  9. #5
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    Collywobbles: haha, thanks I can use the luck Ill try. worst case is…not being able to do it……we'll see

    Straight Edge Ryan: ah, thanks man! that would be great. considering your location, you certainly could correct the english version(?) or do you even feel like translating a german text? its not the easiest text Ive ever seen…
    anyway, what we wanna do is translating the main idea of the text, and not a perfect version of the book. Ill start to translate the 1st chapter tomorrow.
    oh,btw, I wont do this at home when I could use the time to draw. Ill do it in school, then I might even learn something there

    overall Id say this will take from 3 weeks to 2 months, really NO idea how this is going to work out…least I can do is try
    youll need a lill patience though

    and input is always welcome
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    Nettle_Mountain - walnut - SamC - Walid D - Nrx - Dilated - FraserMcT

  10. #6
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    bigfooTrooper, thats a generous offer, but i think that:

    a) translating and publishing (making available online) would certainly infringe someones copyrights.

    and

    b) the writing in the book is realy not a huge loss. there is nothing in it you can't find in Bridgman, Loomis or some of the other great anatomy volumes out there.. golfinger..

    Bammes is alright for his illustrations. those explain what he's trying to say 10times clearer than his ugly words.

    so, save youself the pain.

  11. #7
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    May have already been done, Dover lists this, here's the listing on Amazon...

    http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Guide-...7940074&sr=8-1

  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by EightArms View Post
    May have already been done, Dover lists this, here's the listing on Amazon...

    http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Guide-...7940074&sr=8-1
    I don't know how it compares to Nackte Mensch, but it's quite different from Gestalt des Menschen, it has much fewer pages, consisting of mostly student's drawings. Gestalt has far better illustrations, and basically covers considerable more material. It's worth it based on the pictures alone, you can get supplemental info from other books.
    Last edited by MidgardSerpent; March 24th, 2009 at 08:32 PM.
    My Self-Portraits

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    Express a mental opinion about something you are sensitive to in life around you. There is a profound difference between sensitivity and sentimentality."

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  13. #9
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    Kiera: something like that…"It is not against the human dignity to explain the organisation of the body, the opposite is ture, it is his uniqueness that askes for some principles of designs…"

    a) translating and publishing (making available online) would certainly infringe someones copyrights
    I wasnt thinking about that…at all…lol, that makes it probably impossible cuz I wont…I WONT harm any copyrights!
    unless there are some exceptions for translating, the plan is screwed…
    big apologize! I just wasnt thinking enough, so the link from EightArms is the solution for now…

    sorry again, feeling stupid……maybe I get another chance to "serve the community"……

    (remove all the thanks above please)


    EDIT: well, changing my mind every day…lol
    Last edited by Φ; March 25th, 2009 at 12:39 PM.
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  14. #10
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    ...maybe you could just teach us all German?

  15. #11
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    It is NOT infringing on copyright in the case of EDUCATION. Think Google books or the Gutenberg project...

    That's termed "Fair Use," and does not qualifiy as a Copyright Infringement, so long as it is not done for profit.

    To translate it is NOT the same as simply re-publishing it.

    I'm thrilled, though, to see such ethical considerations, even though they are misplaced in this particular situation...

    Especially since you are not talking the illustrations, merely the text, this is a MORE than appropriate example of "Fair Use" exemption.
    ~M
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  17. #12
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    well well, and we're off again! give me some time though =) lots of time

    ah, happy that I can do something thanks for pointing that out madster
    ok, well Ill read through the book and start translating then. Ill upload a sample when I got the first chapter done, so you can tell me if its readable and useful . also, im not going to copy the img in it, youll need an original version of the text, Ill only say to which img im referring to. how you get the book is not my problem

    and again, im not wasting my time translating I do it in school as mentioned. and im going to take the CAE (Cambridge advanced examinations ) in june, this will be perfect training

    (btw. feel free to re-place your thanks again )
    Last edited by Φ; March 25th, 2009 at 01:16 PM.
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  19. #13
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    I've had a copy of Der Nackte Mensch for years, and will enjoy finally being able to understand some of the explanations.

    More power to the linguists! This will be SO appreciated.
    As far as I'm concerned, you can skip everything up to page 17, where the first illustration of anatomy appears. It seems there was some sort of difference of thought about it, but I can't grasp enough to understand all the Drama, or the outcome...Signorelli had a way with poses, but Leonardo's time studying dead bodies definitely gave him an edge on the technicals...I'm so hoping there is an explanation for Albrecht Durer's body proportions breakdown, although I doubt it. It SO resembles the "8 head" bodys, except it's fat, and has 20 divisions...(Pg 23) Likewise, the joints and gestures on Pg. 28. The book references Hogarth and Loomis further on, so I'm assuming that these earlier works from previous centuries influenced them, as well...

    Gee, once I know what they're really discussing, I might have to break down and seriously attempt to copy the illustrations...That was the intent behind the book in the first place...

    ~M
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  21. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiera View Post
    a simple, randomly picked sentence about the human head from "Gestalt des Menschen"
    "Er widerstrebt nicht der menschlichen Würde, ihm als der Bekrönung (sic) menschlicher Leibesorganisation von sachlicher Seite Klärung angedeihen zu lassen, im Gegenteil, grade die Einmaligkeit seiner Individualität wirft die Frage nach allgemeinen baulichen Grundsätzen, körperhaft-räumlicher Ordnung und architektonischer Gefüge auf."
    how would you translate this? By simplifying it to the essence of the sentence or by word-for-word translation?
    Having taken "French Literature Translation" in college, I found it worked best to 1. Literally translate it word for word, 2. Deliniate "standard" sentences (He walked to class) from the esoteric "poetic/cultural" sentences (He became freaked out by the orgy of art-hungry students), which you then have to break down and try to understand based on syntax, verbage, and slang.

    It will STILL read somewhat weird, since the cultural differences may not carry across, but by having someone who can translate it enough to separate the "easy" from the hard," the "hive" here might be able to hammer out intelligible explanations for some of the more obtuse ramblings...

    ~M
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    I am The Choosen One!
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  22. #15
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    dont wanna turn this into an argument, but i realy wouldn't translate the entire thing and make it available here for copyright reasons. that would NEVER be a case of fair use, though probably nobody would even notice.

    project gutenberg does only post work which is in public domain.

    even a quotation of a couple pages might be ruled as copyright infringement when made public (posting on ca.org is making public), since it allows the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for. even if it's not available in english whatsoever.

    any other oppinions on this? if this turns into a big thing here this should probably be cleared beforehand. maybe you should just ask Jason or one of the admins, if it's fine to post your translations?

    madster, the part about Loomis, Hogarth and Bridgman is probably the worst of Bammes' whole book. Makes you think he didn't know what he was talking about afterall. He is basicaly describing them as wrong and un-scientific and bashes them for like two pages. He describes Hogarth's books as the only ones who had at least some ideas which were alright. Considering the historical context in which Bammes wrote his books there might be other, non artistic reasons for his harsh words about all american authors though...

    just copy the illustrations.

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