Unacceptable behaviour in the lounge. Please vote.
Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

View Poll Results: Should we ban Madster and dance on her grave?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hell yeah

    18 75.00%
  • No you're being a big meanie

    6 25.00%
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 95

Thread: Unacceptable behaviour in the lounge. Please vote.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sesh Planet
    Posts
    2,586
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Unacceptable behaviour in the lounge. Please vote.

    This refer's to the comments made in this thread:

    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150652

    We don't need ridiculous negativity like this killing the dreams of kids on the forum.

    Respondez vous, sil vous plaitssesz

    Last edited by Dirty C; March 13th, 2009 at 05:59 PM.
     

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dirty C For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    528
    Thanks
    409
    Thanked 215 Times in 141 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Not smart to call a mod and one of the more acknowledgable people on this site what you've called him/her. Even more unwise to expect people to agree with you on this. He's (she's) giving the honest truth, as hard as it is to swallow. If the TC doesn't agree with it, he doesn't need to listen. He just needs to prove Madster wrong, which is possible with hard work and study.

    Most of the best teachers and mentors are the ones that make you do 50 and crit you to hell, not the ones that let you fly by believing you're okay. Are you going to call them that, too?

     

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ShroudStar For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sesh Planet
    Posts
    2,586
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    You're kidding. Someone made Madster a fucking mod??

     

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    sexy ass san francisco
    Posts
    1,205
    Thanks
    382
    Thanked 286 Times in 92 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    That's retarded. If someone steps over the line, they should be held accountable.. regardless of mod status.

    That wasn't even a tough truth, that was the ramblings of a bitter person.

    apology or the frickin' boot.

    ĦQue Viva El Concept Art Atelier!


    [Website]

    [Blog]

    [ Sketchbook! (old) ]
     

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Icon For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,943
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 597 Times in 431 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ShroudStar View Post
    He's (she's) giving the honest truth, as hard as it is to swallow.
    I really don't think that 16 being too old to pursue art qualifies as "truth."

    -: [ sketchbook | sour.org ] :-
     

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to sourgasm For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    792
    Thanks
    186
    Thanked 409 Times in 235 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ShroudStar View Post
    He's (she's) giving the honest truth, as hard as it is to swallow.
    I'm sorry, but I fail to see how saying "if you're not great at 16, give up on your dreams" is "honest truth". Saying "10 months is an unrealistic amount of time to improve, prepare a portfolio, and be accepted to art school in order to extend your visa", would have been the honest truth.

     

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aphotic Phoenix For This Useful Post:


  12. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    316
    Thanks
    100
    Thanked 132 Times in 45 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Ban. Madster is a person with bad energy.

     

  13. #8
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    You know you guys should really re-read that thread. Dirty C you were also WAY out of line. Madster never once used name calling, and gave some harsh realities to consider. That was way different than you doing a personal attack. I didn't see Madster calling the OP a fucktard, but I see how quickly you called Madster one and didn't even bother to debate legitimate counter-points.

    This quote is really the truth "Your talent is not exceptional enough for you to chase this particular dream."

    It's not talent that gets a person there but HARD WORK maybe you guys should read Art and Fear about this. People like to use the world "talented" a lot like it's something that comes without effort.

    At 16 yes, not talented enough to enter the school, but you know in 2 years the OP may put in enough hard work.

    The only thing I disagree with is #1 which is the age thing. Art can be learned at any age, and to make it a career just requires focus. It doesn't matter what age you decide.

     

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Arshes Nei For This Useful Post:


  15. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,341
    Thanks
    283
    Thanked 1,342 Times in 473 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Saw the thread, replied with my opinion.
    I think Madster deserves to at least respond to the comments toward him, but I definitely think it was horrible advice.
    I just can't fathom telling another artist that they straight up "shouldn't bother" and anyone who says that should be ashamed. It's not about coddling or lying to an individual. Be honest, critique them, but never tell them that they shouldn't pursue their dream.

    That all said...
    Ban? I'd let the real mods worry about that. No one likes forum police.

    -D

     

  16. #10
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Some background/history:

    Madster is a chick.
    She's old enough to be most of your mothers.
    She was never banned.
    She was once a mod.
    She no longer is.
    She stopped posting for a few years for her own reasons.
    Recently she started again.

    Carry on.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
     

  17. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:


  18. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sesh Planet
    Posts
    2,586
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Arshes,

    Good points,but I'm gonna go ahead and disagree. Teenagers dreams are fragile things and it's easy for that one person to derail somebody completely and possibly lead them to never pursue art and end up some wage slave for the rest of their life.

    The fact that this kind of person has been made a moderator straight up disgusts me. Nothing in life happens without the desire, first and foremost. 90% of the people on this forum are here because they found the strength to ignore the naysayers in their lives, particularly in their teenage years. This forum should not be a haven for that sort of person and it definitely should not reward that sort of person with 'elevation' to a position of authority.

     

  19. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dirty C For This Useful Post:


  20. #12
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fallingwater
    Posts
    5,059
    Thanks
    1,516
    Thanked 5,150 Times in 1,700 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I want to see Madster's drawings at 16. In fact, where are her drawings now, because the only bit of her work I see is on this site is from like 2005 which includes a photoshop filter as "art"... Where's the art? The art will say a lot about where she's coming from.

    Oh, and btw, grandma moses. And Frazetta didn't paint his first paperback cover until he was in his 30s.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara
     

  21. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to kev ferrara For This Useful Post:


  22. #13
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    2,256
    Thanks
    304
    Thanked 524 Times in 365 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Hmmm you were mean, too. Calling her a meanie. That's mean.

     

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ~Faust~ For This Useful Post:


  24. #14
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    One more thing:

    No matter how strongly you feel about someone, and no matter how justified you may be, this sort of public lynch mob is highly distasteful.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
     

  25. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  26. #15
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,943
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 597 Times in 431 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    if someone stops pursuing artwork based on a forum post, they were fucked anyway.

    that said, it really seems that madster is somewhat upset about her own failings, considering she hasn't posted any artwork in several years. people tend to live vicariously or, well, troll forums and attack people with hope still intact.

    *shrug

    -: [ sketchbook | sour.org ] :-
     

  27. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    792
    Thanks
    186
    Thanked 409 Times in 235 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I whole-heartedly agree that name calling is inappropriate, but so was the utter lack of tact and compassion from a person who still displays an "administrator" icon (at least on my computer). This forum is viewed by many guests who may not become contributing members of the community after reading such a post. What better evidence is needed for someone making the case that we're all just a bunch of "elitist snobs", which is a reputation that scares people away.

     

  28. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Aphotic Phoenix For This Useful Post:


  29. #17
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    I just can't fathom telling another artist that they straight up "shouldn't bother" and anyone who says that should be ashamed.
    -D
    Depends. Some of the points were left open ended actually. I saw it, as "at this age and time, what you're considering is not possible" I didn't see it as giving up at all because if you continued reading madster stated what it took to get into those schools. If the OP is not willing to do it, because it's harsh, yeah..maybe art is the wrong career.

    Have you guys done research on the schools the OP wanted to get into? Did it look like anyone could get in or did it coincide with what madster said?

     

  30. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sesh Planet
    Posts
    2,586
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    It takes NOTHING to get into those schools. They have a system called 'open portfolio' (read "no portfolio") there now. Check your facts.

     

  31. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    sexy ass san francisco
    Posts
    1,205
    Thanks
    382
    Thanked 286 Times in 92 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I just wanna state, it doesn't take much to get into an art school... a check at most.... that's all I wanna add :p

    ĦQue Viva El Concept Art Atelier!


    [Website]

    [Blog]

    [ Sketchbook! (old) ]
     

  32. #20
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphotic Phoenix View Post
    I whole-heartedly agree that name calling is inappropriate, but so was the utter lack of tact and compassion from a person who still displays an "administrator" icon (at least on my computer).
    Just to clarify, the "eyeball" badges don't signify admin or mod status.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
     

  33. #21
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty C View Post
    Arshes,

    Good points,but I'm gonna go ahead and disagree. Teenagers dreams are fragile things and it's easy for that one person to derail somebody completely and possibly lead them to never pursue art and end up some wage slave for the rest of their life.
    Teenagers also lie, teenagers also think they know better than adults. There's a lot of things teenagers are. I kinda like your little 'wage slave' thing because again if you read madster's response, it was also about considering greatly the career you chose to clothe and feed your family hmmm ok, I guess madster was encouraging the poster to go for slave wages then?

    Like I said, I don't agree with all of madster's points, but you know ...I could have countered with some other information instead of just crying "Fucktard" I think it's disgusting you find that justifiable and won't even apologize. So now what? Trade atrocities?

     

  34. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,341
    Thanks
    283
    Thanked 1,342 Times in 473 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Depends. Some of the points were left open ended actually. I saw it, as "at this age and time, what you're considering is not possible" I didn't see it as giving up at all because if you continued reading madster stated what it took to get into those schools. If the OP is not willing to do it, because it's harsh, yeah..maybe art is the wrong career.

    Have you guys done research on the schools the OP wanted to get into? Did it look like anyone could get in or did it coincide with what madster said?
    I'll just go ahead and agree to disagree.
    I saw merit in some of the advice, but mostly I just saw the teachers at my high school telling me I needed more math and computer classes, because art wasn't a legitimate career path.

    And of course "at this age and time" it's not realistic....who is 16 years old and applying to jobs in the industry? Who is 16 years old and starting their first quarter of art school?

    In 2 years, it could be a completely different story. I felt her post was largely designed to stop this kid in his tracks; to advise him he is making a mistake. Also, so what if he isn't up to par in 2 years? I had people in my class who were in their 30s and 40s. It's nice to start early, but anyone can do anything with hard work and dedication.

    -D

     

  35. The Following User Says Thank You to Dusty For This Useful Post:


  36. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    On the fringes of "acceptable" observation and commentary.
    Posts
    2,347
    Thanks
    255
    Thanked 136 Times in 60 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I voted for you to dance on my grave.
    Them's that's old enough know the truth about Life, and the difference between empty dreams, and worthwhile efforts.

    Look around you. The economy of the ENTIRE WORLD is struggling mightily. "They" say that possibly 40% of the WORLD's wealth has simply been destroyed.

    It won't be fixed overnight, and if you think it's hard to make a living as an artist NOW, just think about the world in a year or so. Sorry, children, but the harsh reality of it is that mediocre little drawings becuase that's what you like to do, will NOT get you a well-paying job in today's, and most likely tomorrow's job market. People with DECADES of experience and Master's Degrees are delivering pizzas, okay?

    If a cold dash of honest reality is "destroying dreams," then you are so far out in la-la fantasy land that you need it. Don't even think that you can excuse your vengeful little attitude by claiming to be defending someone else. Artists are not the fragile little spirits you believe. The BEST artists are the ones that have carbon-fibre cores and armor-plated skin. Only WhinyBabies (I should trademark that) get SO offended and SO hurt that they then have to resort to vulgar namecalling, and truly sad little threads like this one. Of course, you're not the first, and most likely, won't be the last...You're just another in a long line of overly-sensitive "arteests," who believe the world is just holding it's breath awaiting your next poorly composed, badly value rendered creation...

    Make sure you wear your best shoes...

    (Any my appreciative thanks to the intelligent among you who have attempted to enlighten the next generation WBs...Although I think it futile, once an oversensitive whiner, usually forever the same...)
    ~M

    Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional
    I am The Choosen One!
    Jason sez: Draw more from Life!

     

  37. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to madster For This Useful Post:


  38. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brazil & Texas
    Posts
    2,177
    Thanks
    151
    Thanked 398 Times in 254 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Why don't all of you shut up and give Aaron some GOOD, CONSTRUCTIVE advice instead of arguing in here?

    Madster was out of line. Any out of line comments that hit her in return are pretty much deserved/expected.

    GIVE THE KID A HAND.

    Only the heart intrinsically noble can succeed...
    Check out My Sketchbook: Leave critiques, encouragement, and good jokes within.

    www.enmls.com
     

  39. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to IanE For This Useful Post:


  40. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    792
    Thanks
    186
    Thanked 409 Times in 235 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Just to clarify, the "eyeball" badges don't signify admin or mod status.
    XD Think my sleep brain was playing tricks on me (did go back and check)...perhaps because I've seen "admin" next them often enough. *feels silly*

     

  41. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,287
    Thanks
    219
    Thanked 167 Times in 106 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Some background/history:

    Madster is a chick.

    Madster is a girl?

     

  42. The Following User Says Thank You to Bowlin For This Useful Post:


  43. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,341
    Thanks
    283
    Thanked 1,342 Times in 473 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by madster View Post
    I voted for you to dance on my grave.
    Them's that's old enough know the truth about Life, and the difference between empty dreams, and worthwhile efforts.

    Look around you. The economy of the ENTIRE WORLD is struggling mightily. "They" say that possibly 40% of the WORLD's wealth has simply been destroyed.

    It won't be fixed overnight, and if you think it's hard to make a living as an artist NOW, just think about the world in a year or so. Sorry, children, but the harsh reality of it is that mediocre little drawings becuase that's what you like to do, will NOT get you a well-paying job in today's, and most likely tomorrow's job market. People with DECADES of experience and Master's Degrees are delivering pizzas, okay?

    If a cold dash of honest reality is "destroying dreams," then you are so far out in la-la fantasy land that you need it. Don't even think that you can excuse your vengeful little attitude by claiming to be defending someone else. Artists are not the fragile little spirits you believe. The BEST artists are the ones that have carbon-fibre cores and armor-plated skin. Only WhinyBabies (I should trademark that) get SO offended and SO hurt that they then have to resort to vulgar namecalling, and truly sad little threads like this one. Of course, you're not the first, and most likely, won't be the last...You're just another in a long line of overly-sensitive "arteests," who believe the world is just holding it's breath awaiting your next poorly composed, badly value rendered creation...

    Make sure you wear your best shoes...

    (Any my appreciative thanks to the intelligent among you who have attempted to enlighten the next generation WBs...Although I think it futile, once an oversensitive whiner, usually forever the same...)
    ~M
    will NOT
    will NOT
    will NOT
    will NOT
    I'm truly sorry that you are so bitter.
    And so horribly, horribly wrong.

     

  44. #28
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    And of course "at this age and time" it's not realistic....who is 16 years old and applying to jobs in the industry? Who is 16 years old and starting their first quarter of art school?

    -D
    Gunner Romantic. I stated she started at 15. Joy Ang I remember her doing fantastic work at 14.

    But yes, I already stated the age thing was not a valid response, but people weren't saying "Well no I disagree since artists start at any age" There's also the fact I pointed to the Realities of art School ...you'll notice Manley and Elwell had different but similar experiences. Manley stating you don't need to attend art school, Elwell telling you it's good if you put work into it (and both actually agreeing on that point).

    See, if this was the discussion instead of the attacks you guys made...that might have been a much more productive post.

    I still don't agree with madster's recent reply entirely but I don't straight out see how everything madster said was terrible advice except for a few points, that people could debate.

     

  45. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Arshes Nei For This Useful Post:


  46. #29
    Arshes Nei's Avatar
    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    6,802
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 4,259 Times in 2,074 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphotic Phoenix View Post
    XD Think my sleep brain was playing tricks on me (did go back and check)...perhaps because I've seen "admin" next them often enough. *feels silly*
    No, emilyg for example has that icon AND is an administrator

    If you clicked on the icon you'd get this:

    This member has been awarded with the Honorable Critic "medal". This member has helped the community time and time again with their helpful comments, and we are very thankful to have them in this community.

     

  47. The Following User Says Thank You to Arshes Nei For This Useful Post:


  48. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    On the fringes of "acceptable" observation and commentary.
    Posts
    2,347
    Thanks
    255
    Thanked 136 Times in 60 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Frank Frazetta WENT TO ART SCHOOL AT THE AGE OF 8, and attended the Brooklyn Academy of Art for four years until it closed. HIS NATURAL TALENT was such that the art school's founder was trying to raise monies to send Frazetta to Italy for art education, but he died, so Frazetta worked countless jobs until he finally made it.

    Get a grip. 16 is OLD in today's world to be JUST STARTING on art as a CAREER, unless your NATURAL TALENT is so outstanding that you can overcome the lack of training up until this point. Sorry, boys and girls, that level of talent is simply not there in this instance. Frazetta he ain't.

    Why some of you STILL whine and cry because your art is not praised to the heavens as the next Frazetta is understandable, but still futile. Hating me for telling you the truth won't make your skills any better. Hate me enough, though, and you JUST MIGHT put the effort into proving me wrong, and actually improve.

    I say go for it. I just won't hold my breath waiting for your "I'm a success, I told you so."

    ~M

    Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional
    I am The Choosen One!
    Jason sez: Draw more from Life!

     

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •