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  1. #1
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    Rob Liefield, Greg Land, David Mack.

    What do you REALLY think of these guys?

    I can only be mad at Liefield for bring down comics. Greg Land could be a victim of the "I'll draw it like this and call it my style because that's what they want to see." way of thinking. He is a good artist, Just find his gallery on comicartcommunity.com and see for yourself. David Mack I could forgive to.

    After thought: I wonder what Alex Toth would have thought of these guys?


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  3. #2
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    Liefeld has a guardian angel on this site. Watch out!

    Seriously, there is generally a culture of positivity here at CA, rather than say this guy sucks and that guys stinks, better to just do your own work and talk about people you like and admire and turn other people on to those artists.

    As the old proverb goes, the smile you send out returns to you.

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    We love every artist .

  6. #4
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    I remember we once had a Tim Bradstreet thread on CA. Then, minutes after the thread was created, there was Bradstreet, defending his work process..
    CA is a big site you guys, alot of people both amateurs and pros see it. Maybe hold your tongue on the trash talk, it's not very classy.
    * Help a CA artist! Visit the Constructive Critique section! *



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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueknightfox View Post
    What do you REALLY think of these guys?

    I can only be mad at Liefield for bring down comics. Greg Land could be a victim of the "I'll draw it like this and call it my style because that's what they want to see." way of thinking. He is a good artist, Just find his gallery on comicartcommunity.com and see for yourself. David Mack I could forgive to.

    After thought: I wonder what Alex Toth would have thought of these guys?
    There are a couple of Liefeld hate threads already, they're plenty amusing but I don't know that we need another. The search function is your friend.

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  10. #6
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    It doesn't really matter anyway.

    If you think hes a bad artist, its unfortunate that hes done so well... but... thats always going to happen. Theres always going to be an artist that was more in the right place in the right time, more knew the right person, or was just more lucky than skilled.

  11. #7
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    Without calling any particular artists out, the only thing I find frustrating about some of these guys is that there are probably hundreds of "better" artists out there who's dream it is to work in comics, that can't get the big break they need to get work, while some of these guys still get work despite some pretty severe flaws.

    I don't know the editor's thought process on why they still get work. Maybe they are just banking on name recognition. Maybe they are great guys and great to work with. Maybe specific anatomy and other artistic issues just aren't as big a deal when they bring a passion for what they do to the table. Maybe a lack of some of those things is what keeps "better" artists from getting work instead.

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    Well in the case of a certain artist mentioned...I wouldn't doubt if speed is a serious bonus to their continued success. There's something to say for someone who can crank out stuff super fast, even if it contains traced elements. Is it the most honorable way of doing it? No, but if it looks good and it sells comics, then I doubt the editor is going to get too moral.

    Its not like he can't draw, he just takes insane shortcuts. We've all got our opinions of it, but at the end of the day they gotta sell a product.

    As for other reasons...there's always been "style" that just grabs people. Liefeld has done some *laughable* work (I'm lookin' at you Captain America), but, hell, I was 13 years old when Youngblood #1 came out and I scooped that up like everyone else at the time.

    I bet a lot of you did too.

    -D

  13. #9
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    Hes just another guy trying to make it in this extremely unforgiving world, not everyone gets it perfect.

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    The fact of the matter is that drawing comics is really really hard. Its fun, but every page is the work equivalent of, I would say, two stand alone illustrations, at a fraction of the price, and often without time to gather reference, generally. For the great and prolific ones, like Mignola, it must be a vocation, like building dams to a beaver, and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow of having a salable property makes up for the years of toil. Which is to say, there's a reason that Adams, Wrightson, Sienkiewicz, and Schultz, just to name a few, don't regularly work in comics. (Toth didn't either, fyi) For that matter, neither does Joe Quesada, who was a great comic book artist, and has found greener, saner pastures as an editor.

    j Wilson, you say that there are a 100 "better" comics artists dying to work in the industry? For one thing,the industry has seriously contracted, so even long time pros had to scramble a few years back. However, I tend to think if they can do the work and hand it in on time at the offered price, if they are actually better than "artist x" they'd have work. Do you have some examples of professional grade artists who aren't getting work in the industry?
    At least Icarus tried!


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  16. #11
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    I think this thread covers all 3 you mentioned in one shot.

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265475
    You are a level 8 ninja and even though you have a lot of weapons sometimes your ninja moves are your most powerful.

  17. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The fact of the matter is that drawing comics is really really hard.

    Hey Kev,

    "Page a day" ... is that fact or fiction?

  18. #13
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    My New Neglected Sketchbook
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  19. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goog View Post
    Hes just another guy trying to make it in this extremely unforgiving world, not everyone gets it perfect.
    Better to say MOST don't make it at all, even fewer who doing it really well and make a living with it.
    My work: [link]

  20. #15
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    Mark Bagley and JrJR spring to mind when it comes to fast artists. Pretty sure they can do more than 1 page a day.
    Bagley is still working on DC's Trinity, which is weekly, so he should be at least doing 3 pages a day.

    Chuck Austen also had a stint on the (bi-weekly?) US Warmachine series somewhere around the time Quesada became EIC, I think I read in an interview he was cranking out 5-7 pages a day for it. But it kinda showed he was taking shortcuts.
    Last edited by MidgardSerpent; January 21st, 2009 at 08:04 PM.
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  21. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    j Wilson, you say that there are a 100 "better" comics artists dying to work in the industry? For one thing,the industry has seriously contracted, so even long time pros had to scramble a few years back. However, I tend to think if they can do the work and hand it in on time at the offered price, if they are actually better than "artist x" they'd have work. Do you have some examples of professional grade artists who aren't getting work in the industry?
    I'd put forth Kristen Perry, who pursued comics heavily, and ended up on the Guild Wars concept art team instead. I think the idea that if you're good, you won't starve still stands, but it's just a fact of life that highly competitive industries aren't always fair.
    Last edited by Zaxser; January 21st, 2009 at 08:10 PM.
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  22. #17
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    I'd put forth Kristen Perry, who pursued comics heavily, and ended up on the Guild Wars concept art team instead. I think the idea that if you're good, you won't starve still stands, but it's just a fact of life that highly competitive industries aren't always fair.
    Yeah, but she did get into an art field.
    Speaking from experience, games are a pretty lucrative "bread and butter" job, too.

    Maybe it's just me, but I consider any job getting paid to do artwork as a success to my ultimate career goal. It's all about being adaptable and being able to let one thing go in place of another. I'm sure she could and would have done comic work, but she chose to go a different (albeit still sucessful) path.

    I took JWilson's comment as "so and so is the most talented guy in the world and can't get a job anywhere"....to me that would include doing concept art at a game developer. Not the same industry, agreed, but again still related.

    Just my 2 cents.


    -D

  23. #18
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    how many of these liefield threads have i seen on this site? o_o

  24. #19
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    Quite often its a stylistic thing. The classic comic book look is a sort of figural shorthand, with very little "illustration" to it. Those who work in that style should be able to make at least 1 page a day, usually two. Just pencils. I think John Romita Sr. and John Buscema are two classic examples. They aren't really thinking about where light is coming from, or any of the minor forms of the face, for instance, or the ligaments, veins, muscle striations, or that kind of detail. Its all about silhouette and storytelling. Toth took that simplicity to the level of art... the design aspect of it. And that is also "illustration" like Leyendecker or Herbert Paus practiced it... as one quote online had it, "Simplicity was a constant goal of Toth's. He was known to draw an entire comic book page — I saw him do this — decide it was too cluttered and then rip it to shreds and do it over with fewer lines." P. Craig Russel is more of the Toth school than the Romita school.

    Anyhow, there's guys like Kirby who could draw 5 pages a day, but they were really just pencil breakdowns. And Kirby had "Kirby Anatomy" which was like, bold ass action lines in the general vicinity of anatomical landmarks. That kind of "freedom" puts a heavy burden on the inker to make it work, to put the finish on the drawing as well as the art. And then the colorist on top of that. And then the dialog on top of that to make it all come together. (Which is why Joe Sinnott cannot be praised enough for the mid sixties Fantastic Four issues he did with Kirby.)

    There was some all digital guy who posted on this site, forgot his name, who said he was digitally cranking out 3 pages a day, full color painted, for a major company, which is really impressive in terms of output. You could see how he was cleverly using digital tools to duplicate repeated elements to make his life easier. Digital must be great for dropping down perspective lines on the fly, laying in flat areas... Certainly "undo" is about twenty seven times faster than the pink pearl eraser.

    I think the most exhausting thing about inking a final product IRL is the psychic tension. If one single ink stroke goes astray at a crucial moment on a piece, a whole hour can be wasted or washed away. Maybe even a day. It happens. There's only so much that opaque white watercolor can fix.

    kev
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  26. #20
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    i've never been too keen on physical comedy.

  27. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grief View Post
    i've never been too keen on physical comedy.
    What?

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  28. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxser View Post
    What?

    [video clip of pure evil]
    i mention comedy and you post a clip from Rat Race?
    for shame sir, for shame.

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  30. #23
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    I though Rat Race was fun in a campy sort of way. (Then again, I enjoyed Batman and Robin, and Lady in the Water is one of my favorite films... maybe I should shut up now.) I only posted it because I couldn't find a better video of the original I Love Lucy which is the most classic physical comedy you're likely to find sans vaudeville.
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  31. #24
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    ah yes Batman & Robin.

    even the Rifftrax version of the film was still hard to stomach.


    i don't feel bad about this complete tangent conversation seeing how the thread is a knockoff of other Liefield topics.

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  33. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    Yeah, but she did get into an art field.
    Speaking from experience, games are a pretty lucrative "bread and butter" job, too.
    First, the topic was specifically about comics.

    Second, I've no doubt that there are very talented people who haven't got the break that Perry did. I only mentioned her (besides worshiping the ground she walks on) because in a community like this, getting a job is often seen as proof of ability, although there are some other people I would posit for other industries.

    Last time I checked, Moai didn't have a job. Neither did Romance, though I haven't had the chance to check lately, it was a crime a year ago. I remember a week before she joined the others a the top of the page, Jason Manley mentioned Blue footed didn't have one either.

    Hey Kev! Are you making a living off Dead Rider yet? Cause if you aren't, I'm adding you to the list.

    I believe these people will find success eventually, but yes, there are people who are more talented who are getting less work. There are many theories about this: that creature design is a very specialized areas that offers fewer jobs and is therefore a highly competitive field within a highly competitive field, that some people don't promote as much, that comics take a while to take off, but to say that the problem doesn't exist is just not true.
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    At least this is an art discussion.
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  36. #27
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    My fault for not making myself clear. My problem with his art is that it hasn`t improved like other artists.

  37. #28
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    Zax,

    I'm a marketing, advertising and design guy. Sometimes I write jingles and do sound design. Sometimes I lecture. I love typography. I love coming up with campaigns. I love design. I'm fascinated with how to get products to stand out on shelves. Flash animation is fun. Not too keen on banner ads, code, fly by night foreign corporations who want to get a toe hold in the U.S. marketplace with product that doesn't yet exist, or establishing price points. I also don't like wrangling for piddly little square inches of shelf space with Walmart honchos. Screenwriting and Illustration are my real loves. And the comic is a step in those directions, which is why it has to be done "just so". We'll see if it gets me any closer to my goals.

    It's a crap shoot. That's life.
    Last edited by kev ferrara; January 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 AM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  39. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    j Wilson, you say that there are a 100 "better" comics artists dying to work in the industry? For one thing,the industry has seriously contracted, so even long time pros had to scramble a few years back. However, I tend to think if they can do the work and hand it in on time at the offered price, if they are actually better than "artist x" they'd have work. Do you have some examples of professional grade artists who aren't getting work in the industry?
    Well, I used the quotes around "better" because it's obvious that better is subjective, and there are times when there are factors beyond just art quality (as you mentioned, can they produce fast enough? is one such factor).

    I DO think there are "better" artists not getting work. A) I've seen non professional artists with better anatomy and story telling than Liefeld. B) It takes a lot more than pretty samples to convince an editor or art director to take a chance on someone untested when they have someone they know they can count on available. In many ways I don't blame an editor for choosing the guy they KNOW will deliver on time over someone who hasn't done any kind of work at all. There's a reason why common wisdom is that the samples that get your foot in the door in many ways have to be the best of your career. It's an over statement of course, but the truth is your work will probably never be scrutenized that hard again after you've been working for a while and have some experience under your belt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueknightfox View Post
    What do you REALLY think of these guys?
    I recall once here at CA being told that the popularity of your work is far more important than how good your work is. So I'm thinking it doesn't really matter
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