This goes out to all the innocents in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
 
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    This goes out to all the innocents in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict

    After thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel over the last few years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rocket_attacks and many related skirmishes, the inevitable "last straw" has come and Israel is retaliating in a more proactive way to remove the constant terrorizing threat. Our hearts go out to all the Palestinian innocents who have been killed in these incursions as well as those who are being used cynically by Hamas as human shields (in an attempt to delegitimize the Israeli counter-attacks on a political level through the media). Of course, our hearts also go out to all those wounded and killed and terrorized in Israel by the years of indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire and suicide bombings coming over the border at them. One hopes that a two state solution will be found where Israeli and Palestinians can live side by side in viable states without religious zealotry rearing its ugly head.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Definitely not a black and white situation.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

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    The situation is bad. I got friends in the military, and i just hope this nightmare will end.
    I'm glad to see that people manage to stay objective to this sensitive matter.
    I hope that one day we will manage to acheive peace.


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    I was gonna talk about politics, but i thought, fuckit. Its not gonna enlighten anyone, since its obvious people aren't open to change their mind about what they already think is the truth.

    I'm just gonna send out my sympathies to every innocent person in this conflict, and i hope for the best for my friends in all three sides of the conflict.


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    may we all find peace.


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    The situation is deplorable. No other words describe it. And noone can claim innocence. Not Palestine, not Israel, not the U.S. not Europe not Egypt nor the middle east.

    All people hope for peace... while at the same time their governments prepare for war. And yet when it comes down to it, as majorities, the people condone it, even though they wish for peace... otherwise it would not be happening.

    Kev, you yourself said your heart goes out to all the innocents, and yet you justify the killing somehow... What is wrong with us all? You aren't alone in this doublethink, almost all people do it, though they may deplore war and killing they justify it... somehow. THAT is the problem. THAT is why the U.S. builds and practically gives weapons away. THAT is why Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately not knowing or caring who they hurt. THAT is why Israel ghettoizes it's undesirables and then bombs them into submission with cheap (free?) and massive U.S. weapons. Because violence is rationalized and justified. even though there is no rational or justification for it.

    If people did not accept violence as a strategy then governments would not be able to get away with it. Government is insanity. Government has no conscience or morals... but people do... supposedly. Though you would never know it by looking at the world.


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    kev, you attend the Zionist Congress this year?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chingwa View Post
    The situation is deplorable. No other words describe it. And noone can claim innocence. Not Palestine, not Israel, not the U.S. not Europe not Egypt nor the middle east.

    All people hope for peace... while at the same time their governments prepare for war. And yet when it comes down to it, as majorities, the people condone it, even though they wish for peace... otherwise it would not be happening.

    Kev, you yourself said your heart goes out to all the innocents, and yet you justify the killing somehow... What is wrong with us all? You aren't alone in this doublethink, almost all people do it, though they may deplore war and killing they justify it... somehow. THAT is the problem. THAT is why the U.S. builds and practically gives weapons away. THAT is why Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately not knowing or caring who they hurt. THAT is why Israel ghettoizes it's undesirables and then bombs them into submission with cheap (free?) and massive U.S. weapons. Because violence is rationalized and justified. even though there is no rational or justification for it.

    If people did not accept violence as a strategy then governments would not be able to get away with it. Government is insanity. Government has no conscience or morals... but people do... supposedly. Though you would never know it by looking at the world.
    There are times for diplomacy, and there are times for action. How much more should the Israeli government allow their people to be made victims of Hamas attacks, and later criminalized by the MSM - simply for living their lives.

    Perhaps it was finding old photos of my squad mates during my IA tour, or taking a longer look at the scars. But I've come to the "re"-realization that the threat needs to be taken care of. There are still areas I would prefer that we simply leave alone, but perhaps it has been that we have not been involved enough. After taking the time to seriously consider my own memories, world events, gains and losses. I have to say I personally wouldn't concede simply because I had taken so many blows.

    Conscience and morals have their place, but so do logic and reason.

    Love with your heart, use your head for everything else.


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    hahaha fuck Zionism, fuck Israel.

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    The two state solution will bring peace. Anyone who advocates for something other than that is acting immorally by encouraging this neverending conflict to continue, which means more and more innocents on both sides will die. Forget whose land is what from something you read from one side or the other and when somebody did this or that, because all that stuff is water under the bridge. History cannot be untangled, the Ottoman empire is dust, the British Empire is dust... All those around the map table in world war one... they're dust. The signatories to all the mandates... they're dust. All the presidents and politicians in the UN in 1948... they're dust. The original Zionists of the 1800s... they're dust. The muftis who started the riots in the 1920s... they're dust. Arafat... dust. Sharon... dust. Nasser... dust. Dayan... dust. Begin... dust.

    The only way forward, in my opinion, is to generate political force for the two state solution and against the use of old political grievances to perpetuate hatred and war.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; January 5th, 2009 at 12:06 PM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    The two state solution shouldn't have existed in the first place, but unfortunately, yes it is the best solution, in light of recent events. 50/50, like it was meant to be in the first place. Israel and America however are above international law, they can commit war crimes, carry out illegal wars, do as much illegal boloni as it wants to, without being held account for any of it.

    Israel doesn't want to be tried in the Hague for war crimes because it knows it would lose (the Inernational world has to ask Israel if it wants to go to court or not when it commits crimes, again, not like your average joe)

    Israel is using chemical weapons that kill you, and if they don't they will give you risk of cancer. Depleted Uranium has been found in the bodies of the injured and the dead.

    Another crime, but you won't se this told on BBC, Sky, CNN... and definitely not Fox News! Rupert Murdoch has his thumb on pretty much most of the news you hear, to keep you stupid.


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    And on the issue of rockets, Israel has planes that have been built to exterminate those that fire rockets, planes that can spot a rat on the ground the technology is that advanced.

    I don't know if any of you have seen the size of Gaza, but it's pretty much a crumb, in comparison to most countries in the world, including Israel.

    Anyway, to justify the murder of innocents and amount of destruction Israel is carrying out in this so called 'war' on a couple of rockets (I know the figures, it's nothing to the destruction carried out by Israel) which could be exterminated easily by precise bombing by aid of Israel's advanced weaponry. It's pretty much a five minute job compared to this 'war' that Israel is carrying it out.


    It's propaganda, to get votes in the Israeli elections, and it's working so far, you can check out the recent history of the elections if you want to.


    This war isn't because of those stupid rockets, which Israel could exterminate easily if it really wanted to, just like the Iraq war wsn't about WOMD.


    How can you trust what they tell you after they lie to you so consistently. Weakness and stupidity is the reason, and the Palestinian people are paying their lives for it!

    Last edited by Gulzaar; January 5th, 2009 at 02:06 PM. Reason: spelling mistake

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    The situation, btw, is black and white, they are giving you a lot of grey to confuse you and decieve you, but it's basically black and white if you understand what's going on.


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    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

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    I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the meaning of your post which was adressed to me, Mr. BuckWeisel.


    edit: oh, ok, sorry, thankyou for that, I was beginning to get tired of triple posting lol.

    Last edited by Gulzaar; January 5th, 2009 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Thankyou.

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    Instead of making 3 posts in a row you can edit one post in order to include all your thoughts. I think there may be a rule against double/triple posting.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

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    They put up with those rockets for years. Made me ask..why now? With a possible pending war with Iran, Hamas would be a major thorn for Israel to deal with. They have to clear Hamas to be in a better position to attack Iran and not have a multi-front war. Since the US has no political capital left and is expending it by blocking the UN resolution, Israel will have to be the one to make the move on Iran. When they do, the world will let them fight it out and the US will have its way to be in the game as I have no doubt the Bush admin has plans made for (regardless of whether they are used). Obama is coming in helpless to this situation I would guess. Its not like he can yes we can in the middle east...is beyond control. perhaps our stance with being the ass of the UN will change though.

    I dunno...maybe it is their hope that by clearing Hamas, and thus Irans control of Palestine, that Iran will be in a much weaker position to negotiate over the issues Israel has with them. Irans issue with Israel is clearly unsolvable. It isn't like holy eradication is something one can negotiate. Israel will make a move, is my guess, once this is said and done if iran continues its nuke stuff. If not, they will have succeeded in crushing irans control over hamas and that is sure to bring at least some peace. Sucks that the attacks are happening...completely.

    Morning pessimism over....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    The two state solution will bring peace.
    I find that hard to believe. As I see it as long as Israel is there Hamas and similar groups will continue to cause violence, and as long as there are Arab nations there will be Hamas and other similar groups acting out. Israel acting will only exacerbate the situation and not acting will not be so great for them either.

    The way I see it; if you don't like hearing gunshots move out of the projects.

    Anyone who advocates for something other than that is acting immorally by encouraging this neverending conflict to continue, which means more and more innocents on both sides will die. Forget whose land is what from something you read from one side or the other and when somebody did this or that, because all that stuff is water under the bridge. History cannot be untangled, the Ottoman empire is dust, the British Empire is dust... All those around the map table in world war one... they're dust. The signatories to all the mandates... they're dust. All the presidents and politicians in the UN in 1948... they're dust. The original Zionists of the 1800s... they're dust. The muftis who started the riots in the 1920s... they're dust. Arafat... dust. Sharon... dust. Nasser... dust. Dayan... dust. Begin... dust.
    Those of the past are dust but there is still a lot to learn from them; most importantly that the longest time with some semblance of peace in the region was before we in the west pushed our own agendas and interfered with the region. And what reason is there to not let Israel become dust like the others? It cannot last forever and after it falls history will look back on it as a failed expirament whose continued existance was what chafed the area and for the longest time prevented peace.

    The only way forward, in my opinion, is to generate political force for the two state solution and against the use of old political grievances to perpetuate hatred and war.
    Political force requires military force. At that point you are once again bombing for peace; and I hate to sound like a hippie but bombing for peace is comparable to screwing for virginity.

    The only way foreward, in my oppinion, is to wash our hands of it. The situation will play itself out one way or another on its own. Untill it does play itself out there will of course be violence but trying to push a peace that is unnatural to the area only drags out the violence longer and puts blood on our hands as well; tangling ourselves in a situation that we have only prolonged every time that we have gotten ourselves involed.

    If someone wants peace they cannot set terms as to how it is going to exist. Instead the way to peace is to refuse to cause damage to others and to remove yourself from where damage will be caused to yourself. You can't force someone to be peaceful to you; you can only be peaceful to them. It took me a while to realise this myself.


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  32. #21
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    "bombing for peace is comparable to screwing for virginity." Nice!


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    Peter, you are advocating for a bloodbath and I consider your position to be immoral. There is very little to be learned from the past because it is essentially unknowable. History is an argument, as one wag put it. And the idea that all was peace and love in the arabian penisula before Zionism is an absurd reading of history. A fantasy. And your comment about "bombing for peace is like..." is an ahistorical flippancy. See WWII.

    I guess this is another thread destined for locking.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; January 5th, 2009 at 04:40 PM.
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    How the hell is he advocating for a bloodbath, you're the one that is condoning one! People who are ignorant to the past and don't learn the lessons it teaches us, creates people like you Kev Ferrara!

    Last edited by Gulzaar; January 5th, 2009 at 04:41 PM.

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    Sorry, I was told not to feed trolls. This thread should be locked.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  37. #25
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    Call me a troll, I couldn't care less, lock this thread, I couldn't care less. When the truth begins to get out, you lock the thread haha, Kev, you are something else!


  38. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Peter, you are advocating for a bloodbath and I consider your position to be immoral. There is nothing to be learned from the past because it is essentially unknowable. History is an argument, as one wag put it. And the idea that all was peace and love in the arabian penisula before Zionism is an absurd reading of history. A fantasy.

    I guess this is another thread destined for locking.
    I didn't say all was peace, but that it was more peaceful and less hateful than what we have now.

    I am NOT advocating for a bloodbath. We already have a bloodbath there; I am advocating for the end of it. Our treatment of it is not helping, in fact it is prolonging it. If we want the bloodbath to stop then we need to stop thinking of it as getting peace on our terms, but instead just getting peace. Israel may be justified in their attacks, but attacks, even justifiable ones, will not bring peace.


  39. #27
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    In the name of Godwin, I invoke a closing of this thread.

    "This goes out to all the innocents in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict", indeed.

    In the future, everyone will have 15 minutes of privacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanS View Post
    I just want you all to realize something here...

    One again Gulzaar's posts, in case you haven't noticed, are completely false, disturbingly Anti-Semetic and shamelessly Anti-West.
    Um, I hate to point this out, but Arabs are a Semetic group. To say that being anti-Israel is anti-semetic is like saying the Confederates in the Civil War were anti-American.

    It's all recycled propaganda, usually the stuff one finds on radical Islamic websites, KKK/Neo-Nazi sites (stormfront, etc).. and exactly the same as what one hears in every Ahamdenijad speech, in every Bin Laden video, every Taliban video and in every execution video.
    And how is your comparing this to Nazis and KKK not propaghanda?


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    Hipocrisy you all has it.

    DON'T CLICK THIS

  42. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by evildisco View Post
    Hipocrisy you all has it.
    Perhapse I have done things in the past that could be described that way, but I am somewhat confused and would appreciate it if you could explain what I have done here that dould be described as such? All I want is to see peace in that region. If they could get along that would be best, but seeing as they can't I can only assume that the next possible way to fix things is for whoever wants peace to pick up and go their own way.


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