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Thread: Russia Buys Iceland

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by m@. View Post
    You're right, Finnish is nor slavic neither germanic. Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language , thus related to Hungarian and very close to Estonian.

    And, I wasn't born in Finland but I got Finnish citizenship. Same thing for my 3 brother and sisters. Surely we aren't the only ones. I don't know where you got your 0 number from.

    PS : Finland is a beautiful country
    Oh, I stand corrected then I got that from some swedish friends who ent travelling and doing business there regularly.

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    Hehe! doesn't surprise me

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  3. #33
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    Faust, I'm starting to think that the 'w' key on your keyboard is acting up! It's missing in many words in your posts. That, or your left ring finger is being occasionally lazy

    I also just wrote a reply to your earlier post here, but it got swallowed on the previous page. Silly 30-posts-per-page system! Just a headsup if you want to continue the discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    Aw thanks, Hannes, you're such a sweetheart! I will certainly keep that in mind if things go wrong!

    Faust, I believe Finnish has 15 cases? If I remember correctly. But sure, if you also count plural, I guess it's somewhat more! However, I disagree with you on stop teaching languages in school. You're right that learning new languages is a natural process--but really only until you reach the age of 10 or so. After that the natural ability to pick up a new one seems to fade drastically, so has been proved. And since only a handful of kids get the chance to be exposed to a new language at that age, the rest has to settle on the didactic school system. I agree that many things could be improved there, but surely wiping all language education out of the system isn't the anwer?

    And it's certainly vital for complete language mastery to live and thrive where said language is spoken. But I've studied 5 foreign languages myself (although 2 dead ones) and I've managed just fine to converse in the other 3 living ones I'd still need to live there to get be an expert, but my school knowledge has gotten me very far. But then again, I'm a language nut. If it weren't for my need to draw, I'd be off somewhere studying linguistics and obscure languages

    Also, it's a pity not more people study Finnish. I've actually wanted to study it for years myself, I find it fascinating. Not to mention a beautiful country with a rich culture and history. Plus, I think most Icelanders really connect to Finns! We seem to share the same attitude, I like them
    I really don't know how many cases finnish has , I just said a number that came into my mind, in any case its a lot hehe.

    A discussion about school is pretty hard since the system we grew up in is very different (And for me there is really nothing good to say about the german education system). Did you really learn 5 languages at school? I'm not against banning languages from the curriculum btw, as I said, they are a good introduction and often the only case people get in contact with another language. I just think it's not enough to make them understand yet alone speak them.

    But for the language acquisition to end by the age of 10 that is an unproven and hightly debated topic. The history of that argumant is that most of the research on bilingualism was made in england which is a highly monolingual country where knowing more than one language was considered an abnormality. From my experience it's merely the phonetics that can prove difficult and sometimes impossible to aquire in later life but the ammount of fluency is not age-related. Languages are not as rigid as they appear, another interesting phenomenon proving this is langiage-atrition of which I know some examples as well, people that forget their mother-language after living in another country for decades.

    I myself have learned about 5 other languages and only those I learned outside of school I can fluently speak in and not merely ask for directions to the supermarket.

    EDIT: and yes, my W-key is broken

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  5. #35
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    I've know a couple of Finns, off- and online, and I believe they said 15 cases. But I guess googling it would be easier, haha And yeah, it certainly is a big number! We only have 4.

    Of course our educational systems are different, I admit I sort of forgot taking that into consideration. I'd say ours is pretty nice, although there's obvious emphasis on math, physics and such. The teachers kept hammering back in elementary school how important it is to know these subjects, forget about studying languages, that won't get you anywhere. Real pity. And yes, over here kids study 3 languages until 16, which is when their obligatory schooling ends. That'd be English, Danish and then a choice between French, German and Spanish. I chose French myself. Those are the 3 living languages I referred to earlier that I knew. In high school, I also took Latin and Ancient-Greek for 3 years, along with the other 3 I had started studying. I'm all about practicality

    I think the biggest issue when teaching languages is teaching kids how to speak fluently in it. At least it is over here, and it sounds like it's the same in Germany? Adding that aspect would greatly enhance the education. That part always gets kinda late in the teachings, and it was often just classmates talking to each other, which obviously isn't a good substitute for the real thing. Having kids go abroad as a part of the curriculum would obviously be awesome, but I'm guessing that's where money is the issue! I understand better what you meant after your latest post, so I think we're in agreement now The system simply needs to be improved greatly.

    My linguistics teacher made it seem like it was proven that our ability to fluently pick up new languages pretty much stopped at that age, my apologizes if that's not true! I simply haven't looked any further into the matter, but it seems I'm mistaken then I think it also really depends on an individual's attitude regarding the matter, just how eager they are to know a new language.

    People 'forgetting' their native tongue is indeed common, but everything we learn is stored in our brains, we don't ever truly forget something. Our brain is wonderful like that. But certainly, after decades of having your mother language collecting dust, bringing that back is tough!

    You've also learned many languages, I see? Out of curiosity, which 5 are those? You're lucky to have gotten the chance to practice some of them in their native area (or so it seems?). I wish I could just jump on a train to a bordering country and stay for some time to sharpen my language skills. Haha, we don't even have trains. Not to mention bordering countries

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    Awesome post, Sorknes I love historical linguistics. Peter, what she said makes perfect sense, if you're really interested in studying Scandinavian languages, it's not as hard as it looks like. English is basically a mixed bag of languages, the biggest ones being Latin and Greek, but the Germanic ones are certainly huge as well.
    Actually, The biggest one is German, but just a really old form of it which as I understand is comparable to Plattdeutsch. We do have a lot of influences from the Latin based languages, however the language structure and most of the lang itself is Germanic. The Latin influence was not as strong until the Norman invasion in 1066, before that Latin and Greek were more of a scholarly type of thing having to do with religion and such. The name "English" itself is derived from "Anglish" named after the Angles, who along with the Saxons and Jutes were Germanic tribes who happened to settle in the British Isles.

    You might find it interesting that with a French speaking upper class and English speaking lower class that a lot of the French/Latin based words to lodge themselves in earlier forms of English are words associated with upper class things and those related to German often are related to menial everyday types of things. For example, the word "cow" is related to the German "Kuh" but its prepared meat is "beef" which is related to "boeuf" in French or Latin "bovis." The German word "Schwein" sounds almost exactly the same as English "Swine" but "pork" is related the the French "porc." Sheep in German is "Schafe" but "mutton" comes from the French "mouton"

    Many other common animals also retained their Germanic base: Hound/Hund Cat/Katze (though the French "chat" is also close). As did basic body parts: arm/Arm finger/Finger hand/Hand However concepts of nobility (noblesse) chivalry (originally from the French "cheval" having to do with horsemanship) royalty (redevance) come from French.

    You said you only get a chance to study one other foreign language, I'm guessing Spanish? Or can you choose from several, like French and such? That's a realy pity that your education system doesn't support more language teaching. I'm a big language nut myself, that was my major in high school. But if you'd ever have to end up taking asylum in the Nordic countries, I'm sure that the language won't be a big barrier!
    Well, what options you have depends a lot on the teachers available in your area and what the schools in your area think would be advantageous to the students. So of course Spanish is an option in states close to the Mexican border. (Like California, where I live.) And students closer to the Quebec border are more likely to learn French. I however was lucky enough to have the option of taking German.

    Also, our high schools (at least in this state, so far as I know) do not have students major in anything. Everyone takes the usual subjects; Math, Literature/writing, a very basic understanding of the Sciences, History, PE, 2 years foreign language (I opted to take 4), a few electives, and a bunch of others that I can't really remember what they were called.

    Anyways, no offense to any other countries, but I really (really, really, really) hope that the US doesn't screw up so badly as to require that type of action.

    Man, we're hijacking this thread with linguistic discussions. Much more interesting stuff, in my opinon, but well.
    lol, unfortunately that seems to be one of the things that I'm really good at.


    Last edited by Peter Coene; October 8th, 2008 at 09:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    You've also learned many languages, I see? Out of curiosity, which 5 are those? You're lucky to have gotten the chance to practice some of them in their native area (or so it seems?). I wish I could just jump on a train to a bordering country and stay for some time to sharpen my language skills. Haha, we don't even have trains. Not to mention bordering countries
    Ah well, in school I had french and latin as primary languages, ad later english but for some reason I alredy spoke english pretty well when that came (I blame the videogames of the time of my childhood Nowadays they all get translated so this educational value is lost)

    beginning university (with 19, still rather young for german standards, e have school for 13 years and then some military service, normally) I had to learn dutch because I studied in the netherlands, and at a rather high understanding level too since I took communications- and therapy-sessions in dutch (read, geisha-training in the art of conversation haha) after study I piiecked up russian and I speak it well and with certified fluency. (With 24 nonetheless). Right no I am somewhat hammering in the chinese language just for something different.

    I plan to go for spanish and turkish and french (for real this time) later. For me learning languages is about being able to talk to more people and get to know the mind-set of a culture I do not consider myself so much a language-nut I'm just a curious guy . I escpescially find the russian mentality being represented in their language very much. For example the passive form is omnipresent there in some interesting areas. People do not own things, They say: "soandso is around me" and the words must and need are in passive form as well. Also some very startling gender-related issues as well. It's really a fascinating and very beautiful language. Which brings us back to Russia, HAHA!

    But Peter, since you learned Platt, hat kind of Platt? Normally, this just describes the nether-german dialect of a specific region. There is northern-platt (Which is officially the east-friesean language now), east-prussian Platt, Rhinelandish-Platt, Nether-rhinelandish-platt and so on... Pretty much every area that spoke nether-german hundreds of years ago.

    Wow this has really gotten off-topic

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Faust~ View Post
    But Peter, since you learned Platt, hat kind of Platt? Normally, this just describes the nether-german dialect of a specific region. There is northern-platt (Which is officially the east-friesean language now), east-prussian Platt, Rhinelandish-Platt, Nether-rhinelandish-platt and so on... Pretty much every area that spoke nether-german hundreds of years ago.
    Oh, sorry, that is a misunderstanding. I never learned Platt, I learned plain ol' Hochdeutsch. I just mentioned Platt as I understood it to be similar to the old Anglo-Saxon languages that English came from. Actually, its probably better that I learned Hochdeutsch as I'm sure I would not have been able to get around Germany as well as I did the few times that I was there. (At WJT I sort of ended up as the unofficial translator for my group)

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    Wops, sorry about throwing Finnish into the Slavic groups. >.< Started to get a lil bit tired there on the end *lol*

    Great Russian/White Russian/Byelorussian is Baltoslavic > Slavic > Protorussian.... Finnish is Finnish-Ugric indeed. Not even on the Proto Indo European tree at all, bad me. Russian has even more kasus than the Finnish, they have 20 something... O.o That's enough to scare me off the language. *lol* And while Estonians and Finns have related languages, both Latvian and Lithuanian is Baltic from the Baltoslavic branch, which makes a lot more of the history (even modern) make sense... (People relate to who they can understand the best.)

    Something which I found really fun when first starting to explore languages is that even though it sounds totally foreign, Punjabi, Persian, Bengali, Hindi, Sanskrit, etc is actually from the same language tree as me, the Proto Indo European. Which means English is more related to Sanskrit than Finnish. *lol*

    That Greek is a huge part of English is indeed right, it's the same as with Latin, just earlier. It was sneaking in the backdoor of the language through philosophy and science. Latin has a lot of Greek cores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorknes View Post
    Russian has even more kasus than the Finnish, they have 20 something... O.o That's enough to scare me off the language.
    Russian only has 6 cases, Nominative, genetice, dative, accusative, instrumental and propositional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Faust~ View Post
    Russian only has 6 cases, Nominative, genetice, dative, accusative, instrumental and propositional.

    LOL!

    There you see, I should just blatantly keep away from saying anything about the languages not closely related to my own. *rofl* Just focus on the Greek, Latin, English, German, Old Norse, etc....That's the ones I've had fun with, hehe.

    I humbly apologize

    Now I'm starting to wonder which language I read about that had 20-something kasus though... *scratches head*

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    I heard about some aboriginee languages that have 20-30 something cases. Other crazy morphologies are within the native american languages. Navacho for example is a language that almost enirely is made out of prefixes making the use of a dictionnary impossible (It's no wonder noone could break the navacho code in WW2).

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    This thread has become so awesome.

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    I have a question for you, scandinavian fellows...
    I'm also interested in foreign languages, specially of northern Europe
    Unfortunately, the language learning options here are very limited, but there is a Old Norse course in my city (blame that "viking metal" fad! )

    My question is... does learning Old Norse will make it easier to understand some other close modern languages? (Icelandic, Swedish and Norweigan, maybe?)

    I'm really interested, because my boyfriend's Uni has special interchange programs with some foreign countries, and he's planning to expand his studies on Scotland or Sweden after we graduate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuthien View Post
    My question is... does learning Old Norse will make it easier to understand some other close modern languages? (Icelandic, Swedish and Norweigan, maybe?)
    I don't live there and I don't speak the languages, but I know that Old Norse is closely related to Icelandic and (after the research I did earlier) Faroese.

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    Peter, thanks for the cool post above where you went further into the linguistic part of English I studied all these things, but I guess it's started to fade somewhat after graduation! I think I oversimplified things when I stated English was a mix of this and that, sorry for the misunderstanding, I should've mentioned the whole Norman aspect as well. Interesting stuff! I really should brush up on my studies.

    Faust, those are some damn interesting languages you know! Russian, Chinese and what have you, I'm almost envious! I agree that also getting to know the mentality of each language is fascinating, you really get to know the core of each culture that way. Again, interesting stuff!

    Nuthien, I believe studying Old Norse would certainly make it easy if you'd want to study Icelandic and probably Faroese, although not as much, they're more influenced by Danish and Norwegian. So the other Scandinavian languages have evolved much more away from their original roots, I doubt you'd get as much benefit from studying Old Norse in that aspect. We read the old sagas back in elementary and high school pretty much in the same state as when they were written back in the 13th century. Still with some modifications, of course, mainly they were updated to modern spelling. Back in the days they used many abbrevations to save space, but that's not a problem anymore!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    Peter, thanks for the cool post above where you went further into the linguistic part of English I studied all these things, but I guess it's started to fade somewhat after graduation! I think I oversimplified things when I stated English was a mix of this and that, sorry for the misunderstanding, I should've mentioned the whole Norman aspect as well. Interesting stuff! I really should brush up on my studies.
    I always found the Normans kind of funny. I mean, they were basically Norse who the French bribed with land so as to keep them from raiding other parts of France. The Anglo-Saxons were so worried about viking invasions in the North that they weren't prepared for what was basically a French speaking viking invasion from the south.

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    Yeah, I agree, they're a funny hybrid. Barbaric vikings and sophisticated Frenchmen! The name is a give-away as well, pretty much just 'Norse/North Man', right?

    But if we go slightly back on topic, I found it rather interesting how the UK government decided to use terrorism laws against the IceSave case to save themselves. I mean...isn't that a bit of an overreaction? I realize it's a difficult situation, but surely those are some desperate measures! I think it's important that nations keep their cool now, but even more importantly, their friendships with fellow countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    I found it rather interesting how the UK government decided to use terrorism laws against the IceSave case to save themselves. I mean...isn't that a bit of an overreaction? I realize it's a difficult situation, but surely those are some desperate measures! I think it's important that nations keep their cool now, but even more importantly, their friendships with fellow countries.
    Gordon Brown trying to score brownie points, he was unpopular anyway before he took this action. However yes, it was drastic and in my opinion rather naive.
    But I can definitely understand his point of view, given that David Oddsson said in a news interview that the Icelandic government would never pay for the bank's debts. Of course, Brown understood that in the way that they were not going to secure the British money in IceSave, and therefor took those actions. The media is now blaming David for all this mess because it started with his exact words in that interview.

    However, using anti-terrorist laws must've surprised a lot of people.

    Right now I'm just hoping the Icelandic government will do the right thing and ask IMF for help; they've managed to really f*** up everything so far :/

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    Yeah, that's what I heard too, they're putting a whole lot of blame on David Oddson and quoting him from said interview. Gordon and Geir are meeting today, I believe, hopefully they'll settle this like civil people. I must admit, I don't think Gordon has nearly the same charisma as Tony Blair did! I too see his POV though, but it's indeed rather naive to use these laws against us.

    I'm also all for asking the IMF for help, I'm sure that's the first right step out of this mess. I'm also just now really realizing how big this is. It hasn't affected me personally (yet?), but I've been hearing these stories now all over from people who've been losing such huge amounts of money, it's scary. And others losing jobs, companies going bankrupt/merging and what have you.

    This is getting depressing. Anyone up for more linguistics discussions?

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    The IMF isn't in a position to help much, even I had confidence in their intentions I have little in their means.

    Besides, panic is what is determining a lot of this.

    5 seconds ago:

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    This is getting depressing. Anyone up for more linguistics discussions?
    Sounds good to me. Can anyone tell me what this page is about?

    http://secretartstudios.com/

    I've been talking with them about doing freelance work in the future and they mentioned that it is their website, but google can't translate it and my combined German and English skills can only help me with a few words, and I don't see any of those handy buttons for an English version of the site.

    I can tell that the Language is Germanic, I'm guessing Dutch, but I really don't know for sure.
    Wait, actually it doesn't quite seem like Dutch, maybe Danish or Swedish? Obviously I'm totally lost here.

    Oh, also, what does everyone think of the intro to "Monty Python QftHG"? I mean, it kind of has to do with all this Scandinavian language talk, what with its subtitles and all.

    Last edited by Peter Coene; October 10th, 2008 at 07:51 PM.
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    It's obviously swedish. The site doesn't seem up yet and this is the Hosting-provider-something ranting about selling swedish domains (hmmm I should learn the names of all those internet-stuffs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    Can anyone tell me what this page is about?

    http://secretartstudios.com/
    That's in Swedish Looks like those who commissioned you haven't put up their actual website, though. From what I can understand, it seems like some website company's default page, although they do mention that this domain has been purchased, most likely by said art company you mentioned. Babelfish has Swedish, right? In case you want to find out details If not I could probably decipher the majority, or you could call up a fellow Swedish CAer!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    Oh, also, what does everyone think of the intro to "Monty Python QftHG"? I mean, it kind of has to do with all this Scandinavian language talk, what with its subtitles and all.
    Oh man, that's hilaaaaaarious They basically took English and added a Swedish flair to it, with pseudo-Swedish spelling and such And poking fun at their mooses! Man, that part always cracks me up!

    I wonder how Americans thought of it, did you or your friends find it as funny? I'm not sure just how familiar you are with each Scandinavian nations. I guess the UK can just about distinguish between us, but most other people I talk to can't make much of a difference between the Nordic countries. I don't doubt that you do, with your interest and knowledge But the average Joe, not as sure. People need basic knowledge of each country, preferrably its stereotypes, to understand jokes about them, isn't that right?

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  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsaB View Post
    That's in Swedish Looks like those who commissioned you haven't put up their actual website, though. From what I can understand, it seems like some website company's default page, although they do mention that this domain has been purchased, most likely by said art company you mentioned. Babelfish has Swedish, right? In case you want to find out details If not I could probably decipher the majority, or you could call up a fellow Swedish CAer!
    I figured it out after a while using intertran. The problem was that I wasn't sure which language to ask it to translate from. Dutch got a few of the words, Danish got a few, Swedish seemed to work best and some of the words I was able to figure out on my own. The problem though was that after the translation it still seemed pretty wacky and seemed to have nothing to do with art. Instead it read:

    "Park with Am looping. This domännamnet is bought and parked by an customer to ourselves. If you will take order on the publication proprietor - and kontaktinformationen tin you uses duties LoopiaWHOIS."

    I figured that "domännamnet" was domain name and "kontaktinformationen" was contact information. However that's just the 1st couple of sentences and it went on and on. I was kind of guessing that it was saying that the site is not up yet, but usually saying that doesn't take so many words, and usually when a site isn't up yet the colors aren't so bright. So I was rather confused.

    Oh man, that's hilaaaaaarious They basically took English and added a Swedish flair to it, with pseudo-Swedish spelling and such And poking fun at their mooses! Man, that part always cracks me up!

    I wonder how Americans thought of it, did you or your friends find it as funny? I'm not sure just how familiar you are with each Scandinavian nations. I guess the UK can just about distinguish between us, but most other people I talk to can't make much of a difference between the Nordic countries. I don't doubt that you do, with your interest and knowledge But the average Joe, not as sure. People need basic knowledge of each country, preferrably its stereotypes, to understand jokes about them, isn't that right?
    Well, historically I know a bit about the region as to how the languages moved about. However I have not really had enough contact to the languages to be able to really tell which is which right away, especially just reading them.

    :edit:
    Also as a kid growing up my family would take occasional trips up to Solvang, CA, which was founded in 1911 by Danish settlers who were sick of living in the midwest. I realize that doesn't seem like that long ago, however you have to keep in mind that California was not even a state until the 1840's and in 1911 it was still considered the wild west.
    :/edit:

    Most British humor comes across as being funny as heck just because its wacky and doesn't make any sense. I mean, I got that it was from a Scandinavian country probably Norway or Sweden, and I knew that Scandinavian countries are Geographically in the Northern part of Europe and culturally a bit different. That the animals that far north include moose and caribou which are not commonly found in England and so the joke made sense.

    However, funny things don't have to make sense in terms of stereotypes for them to be funny. For example, as a kid I laughed my ass off to the crows in Dumbo without having any clue that they were a racist portrayal of African Americans.

    But back to Swedish stereotypes, I think my favorite growing up was the Swedish Chef from the Muppet Show:








    Last edited by Peter Coene; October 10th, 2008 at 11:10 PM.
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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    I figured that "domännamnet" was domain name and "kontaktinformationen" was contact information. However that's just the 1st couple of sentences and it went on and on. I was kind of guessing that it was saying that the site is not up yet, but usually saying that doesn't take so many words, and usually when a site isn't up yet the colors aren't so bright. So I was rather confused.
    It says, "this domain is bought and parked by one of our customers. Use LoopiaWHOIS to find out how to contact him" sorta. But it seems you figured out allready

    The rest of the stuff is about the loopia-service itself

    American Swedish stereotypes are funny...

    Every Swedish person in an american movie is blonde, named Inga (if she´s a girl), has a german accent and plays bingo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m@. View Post
    And, I wasn't born in Finland but I got Finnish citizenship. Same thing for my 3 brother and sisters. Surely we aren't the only ones. I don't know where you got your 0 number from.

    PS : Finland is a beautiful country
    Yeah, pretty sure you can get your finnish citizenship if one of your parents was born in finland and retains a citizenship... Not sure if you have to get it before a certain age, though.

    I remember my mom lamenting the fact that she didn't get hers.. (My grandmother was from finland, my grandfather from estonia.)

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