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Thread: L. Ron Hubbard, an introduction to scientology

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    nobodys denying that. fundamentalist for any idea are quite annoying. ;D

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    "fundamental atheist are just as fucking obnoxious as fundamentalist from any religion ."

    How can someone be a fundamentalist atheist? It's like saying someone is a fundamentalist breather, or buys only fundamentalist gasoline for their fundamentalist car. To be a fundamentalist, you have to adhere "religiously" to a set of rules written as dogma, no matter how extreme, out of contemporary context or nonsensical they may sound to someone else.

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    I guess he was thinking of atheists who believes that life came and evolved on its own (that is as fundamental as you can get), dismiss the entire Bible as a joke, disses all religions as voodoo, and goes around attacking and ridiculing people who think otherwise. Yeah, there are some that turns into a rabid dog every time someone mentions "God" in any situation.

    Alright, what I don't get, why do people want to join Church of Scientology and submit themselves to crazy stuff? Or any other cult?

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    Atheism has nothing to do with evolution.


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    1. I hoped against hope that CA wouldn't be tarnished by Scieno threads...

    2. Is this now an atheist discussion?

    3. Why the hell is this in the entertainment section????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    Well, that's just wrong. Dawkins isn't promoting a theory of how life began, he's just showing how improbable any religion is, based on contradictions in the source material, and the dangers of accepting information with blind faith instead of critical assessment.
    I am confused I never mentioned theory of life or big bang theory I used theory maybe should have used thesis.

    What I was trying to say is that Dawkins seems to be affectly preaching athetism as the logic conclusion in replace of religion. It seems like a pointless endevour he can't prove or disapprove the existance of a higher power.

    Personally yes I am an athetist but I don't wish to distract or mock the faith of others, if it helps you get through the day fine, I worry about when it gets dangerous and people develop a herd mentality or abuse religion as an excuse to inflict harm on others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0kelvin View Post
    Atheism has nothing to do with evolution.
    I know...I tried to make the distinction when I said "life came and evolved on its own".

    1. I hoped against hope that CA wouldn't be tarnished by Scieno threads...

    2. Is this now an atheist discussion?

    3. Why the hell is this in the entertainment section????
    1. Not the first time
    2. Looks like it
    3. Because it's fun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomwaits4noman View Post
    I am confused I never mentioned theory of life or big bang theory I used theory maybe should have used thesis.

    What I was trying to say is that Dawkins seems to be affectly preaching athetism as the logic conclusion in replace of religion. It seems like a pointless endevour he can't prove or disapprove the existance of a higher power.

    Personally yes I am an athetist but I don't wish to distract or mock the faith of others, if it helps you get through the day fine, I worry about when it gets dangerous and people develop a herd mentality or abuse religion as an excuse to inflict harm on others.
    So by theory you must of meant the no god thing, sorry about that. But he's not really pushing a theory so much as he's pushing a criticism of another theory. He doesn't claim to have proof, just a probability. One of his main points is that just because you can neither prove or disprove god, that does not mean that both outcomes are just as likely as the other. Religion speaks in specific about an unknown with no credible evidence, so its very unlikely for the god figure of any given religion to exist.

    I like that people are criticizing religion harshly now. It is just an idea after all, and should not be given any "respect". And to be honest it just bugs the crap out of me how people can go to a silly little building every week, play some cult games, without reading the source material and then coming out feeling morally superior or intellectually enlightened. Its a joke and not enough people are laughing.

    Religion has hindered scientific progress and is a genuine threat to critical thought and reason. It needs to be criticized and exposed for what it really is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    "fundamental atheist are just as fucking obnoxious as fundamentalist from any religion ."

    How can someone be a fundamentalist atheist? It's like saying someone is a fundamentalist breather, or buys only fundamentalist gasoline for their fundamentalist car. To be a fundamentalist, you have to adhere "religiously" to a set of rules written as dogma, no matter how extreme, out of contemporary context or nonsensical they may sound to someone else.


    a fundamentalist people that fight tooth and nail to convince other people that their beliefs are wrong . describes at least 70% of the atheist i have met.

    you know i might think scientology is a silly ass religion but im not gonna tell anyone not to be a scientologist if they want to , if they ask me my opinion on it ill tell them but im not gonna go shoving it in thier face unwarrented

    i personally belive in a god , but not religions, but 90% of the people i know wouldnt know because its a personal thing to me . i just dont get why all of you spend so much time trying to convince each other your wrong

    but hell when watching from a position where your not affiliated with either one you can truley tell that atheist , christians, mulems and all the invasive groups of people act exactly the same . and then call each other out for the shit they are doing themselves

    my favorite one is where christians atheist and especially wiccans clain to be so mistreated and persicuted WHILE they are doing it to one of the other groups

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadefoodog View Post
    you know i might think scientology is a silly ass religion but im not gonna tell anyone not to be a scientologist if they want to , if they ask me my opinion on it ill tell them but I'm not gonna go shoving it in their face unwarrented
    The main gripe about Scientology is not that it's silly, it's that it's main mechanism is to GET MONEY. It's extremely harmful to families for even one person to be a member, since they're either borrowing money or the family is disconnected because of their criticisms of the 'religion' and causing doubt in the mind of the member.

    No one can tell you or force you what to believe, and if people want to believe in Scientology sure. I can reason with them just like I try to do sometimes with theists but the belief is up to them. The problem is that their institution is rotten to the core and will definitely hurt them.

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    Atheism has only one fundamental. Namely, the absence of belief in Theos/Thea/Theou. That said, a fundamental atheist is a redundant term. Perhaps, a dogmatic atheist would be a better communication.

    I find it interesting how the Philosophers of the Enlightenment disassembled religion. And now, the Philosophers of the Post-Modern are taking apart reason, to quote Denzel, "... piece by piece ..." Logically speaking, I think Nihilism is the only tenable position. This of course assumes logic to be the final arbiter of truth.

    As for L. Ron, I tend to look at relio-philosophia as the ultimate forms of art.
    His inventions success doesn't really surprise me. I just hope that when they come to kill/sue me, we can have tea and an existential conversation.
    A slogan just popped into me head! "Religion, the art form that kills"

    ".. X-ray ears are shattering the walls .."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    I like that people are criticizing religion harshly now. It is just an idea after all, and should not be given any "respect". And to be honest it just bugs the crap out of me how people can go to a silly little building every week, play some cult games, without reading the source material and then coming out feeling morally superior or intellectually enlightened. Its a joke and not enough people are laughing.
    Well, sadly, I'm not going to deny this...it is true for some parts. Not all, but pretty much. People do have the right to go and worship at any church of their choice, even the cult-ish churches.

    Religion has hindered scientific progress and is a genuine threat to critical thought and reason. It needs to be criticized and exposed for what it really is.
    I think that statement is a bad generalization. There are many scientists with strong religious beliefs/convictions, and many of them have made important contributions. It might hold true if you are considering the time when Catholic church was in power for 1,500 years, they controlled every aspect of life and suppressed knowledge. However, many of their ideals were not Christian in nature, and their idea of science was actually based on the works of ancient Greek philosophers like Ptolemy and others. Their reasoning was that if the observations didn't agree with the Bible or Greek philosophers, it was rejected. However, since the Catholic church lost power, many scientists were free to make important discoveries, and many of them were devout Christians. It wasn't the Christian religion itself that suppressed science, but a bunch of power-hungry and bigoted people who ran the Church who did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    I like that people are criticizing religion harshly now. It is just an idea after all, and should not be given any "respect". And to be honest it just bugs the crap out of me how people can go to a silly little building every week, play some cult games, without reading the source material and then coming out feeling morally superior or intellectually enlightened. Its a joke and not enough people are laughing.

    Religion has hindered scientific progress and is a genuine threat to critical thought and reason. It needs to be criticized and exposed for what it really is.
    Because people need hope

    (as well as support and all their difficult questions answered - to some their faith provides that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cross View Post
    Well, sadly, I'm not going to deny this...it is true for some parts. Not all, but pretty much. People do have the right to go and worship at any church of their choice, even the cult-ish churches.

    I think that statement is a bad generalization. There are many scientists with strong religious beliefs/convictions, and many of them have made important contributions. It might hold true if you are considering the time when Catholic church was in power for 1,500 years, they controlled every aspect of life and suppressed knowledge. However, many of their ideals were not Christian in nature, and their idea of science was actually based on the works of ancient Greek philosophers like Ptolemy and others. Their reasoning was that if the observations didn't agree with the Bible or Greek philosophers, it was rejected. However, since the Catholic church lost power, many scientists were free to make important discoveries, and many of them were devout Christians. It wasn't the Christian religion itself that suppressed science, but a bunch of power-hungry and bigoted people who ran the Church who did.
    Don't get me wrong, I believe in freedom of religion(including freedom from religion) and its interesting from a historical standpoint also. It tells us a lot about early man and how he filled the void of knowledge and understanding before he discovered science. I criticize religion and hope that its influence continues to diminish, but its important for ideas to be shared, just as long as they are open to criticism and skepticism.

    And I don't deny that there are incredibly talented scientists who are religious, but their impact on science is in no way supported by their religion. The fundamental doctrine of religion is blind faith, the exact opposite of scientific method. You make a distinction between the rulers of the church and the religion itself, but those people delayed our progress in the name of religion. People followed along because their faith really was being undermined.


    Quote Originally Posted by tomwaits4noman View Post
    Because people need hope

    (as well as support and all their difficult questions answered - to some their faith provides that).
    I sometimes feel like a dick for making fun of religion, but I think treating religious people like that is far worse. Its so condescending, you're basically saying that you know its all bullshit, but some people deserve to live in a fantasy land for their own good.

    Last edited by Man Made God; October 6th, 2008 at 10:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    Its so condescending, you're basically saying that you know its all bullshit, but some people deserve to live in a fantasy land for their own good.
    The only reason I responded to this thread is that I feel I am been misquoted again.

    I was not been condescending but rather trying to understand the flip side of my stance, I don't feel righteous enough to assume I am right so they must be wrong.

    Ok yes I am an athetist I personally don't believe in a higher power however I don't arrogantly assume that my belief is the correct belief and that all people should share this belief. Its a personal choice I may very well be wrong.

    I don't think people are living in a fantasy world, I think that people take elements of their faith to help give them support through dark times and to help answer difficult questions. Disease, death, suicide, war......... times when it seems hopeless for some people believing that there is a higher power watching over them helps. If it can help people reform or refocus their lifes get them through hard times then some good has come of it.


    As the saying goes if it was not there we would have created it...

    maybe a primeval thing but there seems to be a need within us to create a higher power, maybe its just so can feel that their is some one in charge... I don't know I can't make assumes for the entire human race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomwaits4noman View Post
    The only reason I responded to this thread is that I feel I am been misquoted again.

    I was not been condescending but rather trying to understand the flip side of my stance, I don't feel righteous enough to assume I am right so they must be wrong.

    Ok yes I am an athetist I personally don't believe in a higher power however I don't arrogantly assume that my belief is the correct belief and that all people should share this belief. Its a personal choice I may very well be wrong.

    I don't think people are living in a fantasy world, I think that people take elements of their faith to help give them support through dark times and to help answer difficult questions. Disease, death, suicide, war......... times when it seems hopeless for some people believing that there is a higher power watching over them helps. If it can help people reform or refocus their lifes get them through hard times then some good has come of it.


    As the saying goes if it was not there we would have created it...

    maybe a primeval thing but there seems to be a need within us to create a higher power, maybe its just so can feel that their is some one in charge... I don't know I can't make assumes for the entire human race.
    Misquoted, you mean misinterpreted? The quote was unedited You made your argument for why I misunderstood you, but I don't think I did. I think we just look at blind faith differently.

    I also don't think I know all the answers. I don't believe in gods or the afterlife, but they may very well exist. But when someone states that they definitely exist, without providing ANY credible evidence, why should that even register as a statistical probability? Surely its on the same track as Scientology, as far as accuracy and credibility goes.

    I understand that people use their blind faith in an afterlife to get through difficult times. But without reasoning and evidence for their beliefs, surely heaven is on the same level as belief in a magic farm where pets go when they are too old. It may be comforting, but people stop telling their kids about the magic farm at a relatively young age, for the sake of their sense of reality and ability to deal with the harshness of it. Because the reality is that no one knows if there is an afterlife, surely its better to assume there isn't and do what you can before you find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cross View Post
    I know...I tried to make the distinction when I said "life came and evolved on its own".



    1. Not the first time
    2. Looks like it
    3. Because it's fun?

    a. Unfortunately.
    b. okay.
    c. no.

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    anyone who does not subscribe to a "religion" is an atheist, even if they belive in a creator.

    a little latin:
    A=non and theism=theological system

    it simply means non-religious or anti religious (non or anti theistic )

    the deist movement in the UK was considered an atheist movement.
    they believed strongly, in a generic undefinable unisex creator (for instance) but denounced religious dogma


    in short to say "atheism is a religion" is a statement made in a historical vacuum.
    is it the dogma of free thinking? the oppression of individualism?

    the only possible fundamental tenant of atheism is that, scriptures are merely the opinion of their authors. and the "big unanswerable questions" of man and the universe are still unanswered. although it technically doesn't prohibit the idea that the objective answer may include a god. It merely asserts you are a fool to think you know the unanswerable.



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    Last edited by kingshaj; October 8th, 2008 at 06:15 PM.
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    To say that atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour.

    .....I forget where that quote comes from?

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    I always liked the "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby" quote. No idea who said it first.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jadefoodog View Post
    fundamental atheist are just as fucking obnoxious as fundamentalist from any religion .
    That depends on how obnoxious you find suicide bombing, holy war, genital mutilation, stoning, etc. etc. etc.

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    Atheism is more about politics anyway. Hey, anybody check out China and how they are enlightening Tibet, and other people who belong to a religious group?

    Dalai Lama: *smiling*

    Mao: Religion is poison...

    Dalai Lama: Oh, snap!

    Mao: *whips it out starts pissing all over the place* This place is mine NOW bitch!



    Elite attitudes for any idea causes problems whether you are atheist nihilist or a part of any religion. Technically atheism is not a religion by definition but it is a philosophy and belief in something even if it is the absence of belief in gods. No one said you can't criticise or challenge beliefs, at least in the free world. It's all about equality and no restriction to thought, and a mutual respect for everyone around you whether you agree or not.

    Anyway these are interesting videos about Religion and China.



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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmoChimp View Post
    Atheism is more about politics anyway. Hey, anybody check out China and how they are enlightening Tibet, and other people who belong to a religious group?
    I cringe when arguments about who killed the most people/mao/hitler/stalin etc...

    Aside from the fact that stalin and hitler are terrible examples, I'd argue that POWER is more of an influence on these people. It's the detachment from the common people that brings about these terrible atrocities.

    If you want to see what really has an impact on people's lives, look at the plebs rather than rulers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grief View Post
    im left handed and my name is josh lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    I cringe when arguments about who killed the most people/mao/hitler/stalin etc...

    Aside from the fact that stalin and hitler are terrible examples, I'd argue that POWER is more of an influence on these people. It's the detachment from the common people that brings about these terrible atrocities.

    If you want to see what really has an impact on people's lives, look at the plebs rather than rulers.
    All I was getting at was even a thought like atheism can be blown so out of proportion to the point of forcing people not to have their own beliefs.

    I believe you misunderstood where I was coming from. My argument had nothing to do with genocide and who was the worst. POWER is the problem. I was giving an example of how an ideal if taken too far can do just the same as what it was trying to stop. There is irrationality in any philosophy if taken too far to the point of where a person disregards every other thought. It comes to a point of where he is so convinced he is right that he disrespects anything around him, instead of listening and living by example taking into consideration other peoples thoughts and feelings.

    I don't like the mentality of attacking psychologically or physically. All it is is selfish ego and circle jerking. If you want to show people the right way to rational thought, you don't attack them or force them into anything. You show them what you have, and know, and then leave it up to them to figure out what they should do with that information. It's very hard as a human to do that though. This is not just a religious concept. People have to learn to adapt and evolve their philosophies.

    And, you are completely right when it comes to power and government. You have to look at the common people and the way they are to see what impacts them. There are people who accept whats going on or disagrees, but only few do anything about it because they are either comfortable or scared. There are some who even agree with whatever ideals they are being controlled under.

    The main complaint I have are people who call themselves Atheists, and try so hard to make Christians, Muslims, Jews and other people who hold a belief in something that can not be completely explained. Feel like pieces of shit and calling them stupid or not even giving them the time of day. I also don't like it when it is the other way around. The problem is labeling and stereotyping. I have met very rational Christians, and as well irrational so called "atheists".

    Stupidity is when someone believes in something so blindly that if there is anything in their way that could challenge their thought they completely ignore it or try to snuff it out.

    POWER is the enemy and that exists in anything. Philosphy, Religion, Politics, and personal Ideals are all the same to me. What people have to develop is a way of rational thought so that people can live without completely hurting each other and getting mad.

    Fear, Anger, Selfishness, and complete lack of respect for your neighbors safety whether you agree with him or not are the problem. Rational thought has evolved from religion, and has done well through the good and bad. Scientists and minds of this world need to be more patient with those who still grasp on to old concepts of thought. Religion was brought forth a long time ago due to rational thinking and observing our surroundings to give us answers to tough questions when at a time we knew almost nothing. People get so comfortable in tradition and culture though they have a hard time letting it change because they are afraid, because it changes their view of the world. It's hard to live in this world happy without having hope in something, and contentment.

    This was more of a rant I apologize.

    I am agnostic atheist as well.

    Last edited by Costau D; October 10th, 2008 at 07:38 PM.
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  36. #57
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    ^ I agree with almost everything you just said, except the last paragraph. You say that rational thought evolved from religion and that religion itself was birthed from rational thought and critical observation. But looking up at the vastness of the universe and the beauty of the world and then concluding that a magical being created it is not rational, its a leap in logic.

    Religion came from observation and guesswork, and a little plagiarism. Science came from rational thought and critical thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man Made God View Post
    ^ I agree with almost everything you just said, except the last paragraph. You say that rational thought evolved from religion and that religion itself was birthed from rational thought and critical observation. But looking up at the vastness of the universe and the beauty of the world and then concluding that a magical being created it is not rational, its a leap in logic.

    Religion came from observation and guesswork, and a little plagiarism. Science came from rational thought and critical thinking.
    Look at it this way. People thousands of years ago did not have the understandings we do of our environment. They could only come to a conclusion on something based on the information they already knew. They didnt know the world was round or that lightening was formed by weather and positive and negative charges. They didnt know when they looked up at the stars that it was other galaxies, planets, and suns. They could only come to a conclusion based on what they observed and what they knew already. Observation is based on assumption and testing assumption, but they only did what came naturally to them. Superstitions evolved from dramatic coincidences in their lives, and so they made a story based around the incident. Since there was no writing they had to memorize and tell the stories. As stories evolved they became more grand, just like some stories today about current events on the news or tv shows based on true stories. They used these stories for life lessons, and elders taught them to the young ones. As these ideas evolved culture and traditions began to form around them. These cultures became mezmorized by them so much.

    So take for example this. I could not remember what documentary this was from but this was an explanation. A tribe wonders through a desert, and one of them spots a deer about die. The deer finally falls, but they did not realize the deer only fainted from thirst. A storm rolls by and lightening strikes a tribe member killing him. As they hover over their dead member to mourn, the deer wakes up and startled by them tries to get up. One of the members makes the connection that possibly the spirit from their dead tribe member traversed or was reborn into the deer. Through this the member decides to kill the deer and wear it's skin as a good omen or superstition.

    Last edited by Costau D; October 10th, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadefoodog View Post
    a fundamentalist people that fight tooth and nail to convince other people that their beliefs are wrong . describes at least 70% of the atheist i have met.

    you know i might think scientology is a silly ass religion but im not gonna tell anyone not to be a scientologist if they want to , if they ask me my opinion on it ill tell them but im not gonna go shoving it in thier face unwarrented

    i personally belive in a god , but not religions, but 90% of the people i know wouldnt know because its a personal thing to me . i just dont get why all of you spend so much time trying to convince each other your wrong

    but hell when watching from a position where your not affiliated with either one you can truley tell that atheist , christians, mulems and all the invasive groups of people act exactly the same . and then call each other out for the shit they are doing themselves

    my favorite one is where christians atheist and especially wiccans clain to be so mistreated and persicuted WHILE they are doing it to one of the other groups
    And you've made more arbitrary generalizing, thinly-veiled personal dogma and nonsense statistics in that post alone than 70% of the others in this thread.

    Last edited by Farsh; October 10th, 2008 at 08:40 PM.
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    oh yea, just incase anyone is wondering, there is a movie called, "introduction to scientology" that is bascily just an interview with Hubbard. And at certain moments while watching it i felt like i was staring into the eyes of satan, with his little slicked back red hair. His creepy doctorin is just so transparenly malevelent as well. Come to church and get Audited. We only take people with jobs haha.

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