So the bailout was rejected...wait...it's back! and has passed!
 
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    So the bailout was rejected...wait...it's back! and has passed!

    The bailout was rejected, i'm interested to see everyone's thoughts about it. I guess only time can really tell at this point if it was a good idea or not.

    Last edited by ArtZealot; October 3rd, 2008 at 04:30 PM.
    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
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    I still think it would have just been a band aid to postpone the inevitable.
    Many people have seen this coming for a while and we didn't do anything about it. A lot of what will come next is going to be panic-based I think. The market will continue it's plunge when it reopens tomorrow. Closing at -777.68 isn't something people are going to be happy about and see as a sign to continue investing.

    As people lose confidence they'll spend less, withdraw more from their banks and end their stocks.

    The system is kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostValkyrie View Post

    The system is kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' right now.
    I couldn't agree with you more on that. I think rejecting the bill was the lesser of two evils though, but a decision definitely had to be made.

    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
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    I would've liked to have seen it passed, as a temporary measure, but honestly why aren't any politicians trying to reimplement the regulations that had prevented this mess for decades?

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    Wasn't this bail-out gonna give a bunch of the CEOs who got us into this golden parachutes? If that was indeed the case, I'm glad it got rejected.

    Also:
    The most expensive facepalm in the world.
    So the bailout was rejected...wait...it's back! and has passed!

    Last edited by BadGeometry; September 30th, 2008 at 01:20 AM.
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    Something kind of ludicrous about paying someone else's extravagant debt with money you don't really have while you yourself are going into extravagant debt through other ill-advised ventures... I'm glad this bill was defeated (or, as CNN is so fond of editorializing, it failed). No sense reinforcing bad habits. There'll be a bit of a sting, but most likely to the people who made the bad decisions in the first place. My parents always taught me that you don't buy things you can't afford, and you don't always have to buy the most of anything you can afford. Greed is coming around to bite its practitioners in their collective ass, and those of us who made wise decisions generally will have the resources and adaptability to weather the repercussions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.C.Barrett View Post
    and those of us who made wise decisions generally will have the resources and adaptability to weather the repercussions.
    A wise decision is to usually invest and/or save. If the market plummets, so can your retirement/college fund/saving for house/etc. The downfall triggered by large firms bad investments doesn't JUST burn them. What would your solution be?

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    Generally, my solution is to live well within my means. I have a 401k set up and I'm not touching it. As far as I'm concerned, that money doesn't belong to me, but to my future self. I can't afford to buy a house right now, so I rent one with 3 other people. I drive a car that costs a fraction of my yearly income. I contribute to my savings account regularly, use my credit card as little as possible, and ride my bicycle to the grocery store. My yearly clothing budget is generally under $500. I don't feed an expensive Starbucks habit. My most extravagant luxury ever, besides my economy car, has been my fairly modest motorcycle, which I bought used. I grew up with parents who had variously found themselves laid off, working less-than-appealing jobs, or learning new professions. All through 6 years of college I sustained myself on a budget of $50/week, after rent and utilities. I'm fairly well off now, got no complaints, and to be honest I sometimes actually miss being kinda poor. My solution is not to somehow come out on top of all this, but rather, to not be dragged under by it.

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  13. #10
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    I meant what would your solution be to fixing the market plummet.

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    In case anybody was interested, there's a cool radio documentary series called This American Life that recently had a very fascinating and informative show about the whole mortgage fiasco that preceded all this, you can hear the show for free here:

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1242

    You'll be amazed at some of the information provided.

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    Oh. Reinstate the kind of regulatory structures that were in place before they removed them and everything started going to hell. As for stopping the plummet, I don't think anything can stop it from dropping to an eventual state of equilibrium. This is the nation paying the piper for decades of ever-more-unrealistic escalation of what people feel entitled to as their standard of living. It either comes in a big hit or is drawn out, and the latter would require people and financial institutions to suddenly become aware of and accountable for their folly and make adjustments accordingly, which, as we all know, is fundamentally unpatriotic. This is the price of decadence; there's no such thing as a free lunch. It's the very first goddamn thing I learned in high school economics. I took it to heart and have ever since been utterly baffled by what people consider to be a reasonable standard of living, as well as to what the nation as an economic entity is comfortable indebting itself. The fact that there is a crisis seems only natural, and fixing debt with debt just feels like throwing more wood on the fire.
    Anyway, the fact that so many demonstrably corrupt or otherwise overtly political people have been pushing to get it through makes me more than a little suspicious of its real intent, as well as of the actual scale of the problem they're ostensibly fixing.

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  18. #13
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    Are 401k's still a good thing to hedge on if the market's failing? Not sure how they work...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    I would've liked to have seen it passed, as a temporary measure, but honestly why aren't any politicians trying to reimplement the regulations that had prevented this mess for decades?
    Because fixing this would mean doing away with a lot of the govt. backing for sub-prime home loans, etc. If they did that it would slowly stabilize things over time, but at first it would make it more difficult to get a home/mortgage/loan. In a little while when the housing market hits rock bottom doing so would be more realistic as the higher standards it will reimplement will perhaps be a bit more affordable when people are trying to pay off a $75,000 house (which in 2006's market would have sold for $1,000,000)

    In the meantime a temporary patch might have been nice so as to keep things from falling apart entirely (or at a little bit less of a breakneck pace) but so much for that idea.

    My suggestion for the time being: invest in silver. Even if the rest of the market as well as the USD crashes entirely it should hold onto its value. (At least I hope so, 'cuz otherwise I'm s.o.l.)

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    Instead of giving a blank check to those ass holes at wall street, I wish they would just write me a check for $2324.50. Which is 700 billion divided by the u.s. population.

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    umm, just write yourself a cheque. same thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonie View Post
    Are 401k's still a good thing to hedge on if the market's failing? Not sure how they work...
    Depends really if your short term or long term. If your going to retire soon you should be cashing out now, even with a bailout this won't resolve anytime soon.

    If you have 20-30 years then you ride the wave. That is assuming everything doesn't go to hell in a hand basket.

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    not so fast guys, while our eyes were on the bailout congress passed a 1 trillion dollar "defence" bill. Damn these crafty shishters.

    http://www.alternet.org/workplace/10..._defense_bill/

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    We don't really have investments, just some money in a checking account. If our bank goes down, does our money just disappear? Growing up, I learned to just put the money in the savings and leave it there, I never once conceived until now that that money was capable of losing value. Is that what's going to happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lumar View Post
    umm, just write yourself a cheque. same thing
    It would be more like an early tax return, except I don't have to claim anything for it. Another round of economic relief FTW!
    It'll never happen though, I'm assuming they will reach a deal by the end of the week.

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    Earendil: FDIC, notwithstanding a massive failure from over-burdening it with bankrupt banks.

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    I found it amusing that Suzie Ormond (sp?) on Larry King was talking about how this will affect the average person because most people live on their credit. She gave an example of how someone with a $5000 credit limit on their card and a $3000 balance doesn't pay attention to their mail and doesn't notice that due to the credit crisis, their limit has been reduced. They go to spend and find out they've reached their limit.

    Larry King responded with (paraphrased) "so the people who pay their credit card bills every month are going to be just fine." Suzie was basically like sure, but who the hell does that? Raise your hand if you pay your credit every month. Sad but true, I suppose, for most people, but I raised my hand. I don't have any credit debt and all my fiance has is a student loan.

    Living at or below your means isn't that hard, people. But everyone feels like they're entitled to more than they have. And it's a self feeding cycle of envy, where you see someone else who can't manage their finances with a bunch of stuff they don't need and you think "damn, if they have that, why don't I??" and you go out and buy a bunch of shit you don't need and can't afford, inspiring the next person.

    It's a sad cycle.

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    I dont see why people are so surprised about it. Anyone who read the papers or slightly followed the news could have seen it coming more then a year ago.

    And this is not something you can't prepare for, anyone can start living for less and repay loans, if they are willing to spend a little less on luxuries. Its easy to blame the corporate executives and the goverment. But really, there is noone else to blame than the average american.

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    As I said in another post that the commonality was greed in the factor. It was the exces and those who felt entitled to have a home no matter what that caused a lot of the problems.

    I think it really does cross party lines since everyone had their own agenda dealing with this issue, see ACORN http://www.nypost.com/seven/02052008...911.htm?page=0

    So I think it just all converged into one big mess and everyone is pointing fingers at the other guy trying to absolve themselves from the blame.

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    As regards credit and living "within one's means", in all fairness credit has become practically the basis of our economy. For many people, "living beyond thier means" is merely living.

    Gotta pay rent, gotta buy food, gotta pay phone bills, electricity, car payments, health insurance, et cetera... and then gas sucks up every penny left. Not only are these things all getting more expensive but if something goes wrong out of left field, like something breaks down in our vehicle or a medical emergency... where does the money come from for it?

    Whilst there are in fact several persons who mismanage their finances, to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of individuals with credit debt is far too simplistic of a statement. Not to mention consideration of what "within your means" really means... as someone who's had to hawk my posessions for gas money before, I find it difficult to accept "irresponsible spending by the average American" as the sole culprit.

    Like most things in life, you have to scratch the surface before you even start to get an idea of what's really happening. Blanket explainations are always lacking.

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  32. #26
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    I want to agree with you all the way but I do have to say we do live in an odd culture.

    I live in a pretty ghetto neighborhood and it boggles my mind how parents complain how they can't afford school books but then I see their precious kids on the bus text messaging away on more expensive cell phones while listening to their IPods, stuffing Cheetos into their faces and calling it breakfast.

    I ask why do their kids have cell phones and they're like "Well don't want another Columbine" like Columbine happens on a daily basis, in the meantime your kid doesn't even say "please" anymore it's "plz"

    The kids wear better clothes than I do, obsessed with everything matching - granted high school can get really stupid with the "Classism" but they worry so much about that, than a decent education.

    It's aggravating that the rest of us decide to go through a decent education and place that as a priority only to be told we have to help out those that didn't want to do the same thing, and we can give millions of sob story excuses for those people.

    I mean if that's the case, the smart thing to do is say "Fuck it" and just slack because apparently we should have the government take care of us regardless. That's what I don't want is that the smarter people see that there's no point in striving if we just give handouts.

    But I admit it's a tangent, but my blood boils how everyone wants to make excuses for the poor and make it seem like they should be absolved of any accountability for this mess either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anid Maro View Post
    As regards credit and living "within one's means", in all fairness credit has become practically the basis of our economy. For many people, "living beyond thier means" is merely living.

    Gotta pay rent, gotta buy food, gotta pay phone bills, electricity, car payments, health insurance, et cetera... and then gas sucks up every penny left. Not only are these things all getting more expensive but if something goes wrong out of left field, like something breaks down in our vehicle or a medical emergency... where does the money come from for it?

    Whilst there are in fact several persons who mismanage their finances, to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of individuals with credit debt is far too simplistic of a statement. Not to mention consideration of what "within your means" really means... as someone who's had to hawk my posessions for gas money before, I find it difficult to accept "irresponsible spending by the average American" as the sole culprit.

    Like most things in life, you have to scratch the surface before you even start to get an idea of what's really happening. Blanket explainations are always lacking.
    It should be pointed out though that when it comes to the whole "Gotta pay rent, gotta buy food, gotta pay phone bills, electricity, car payments, health insurance, et cetera... and then gas sucks up every penny left" part of things; many people, even in doing these things, are not living withing their means. Instead of choosing to live in an appartment that they could afford they bought a house and put themselves into debt that way. Instead of riding a bike to their job which happens to be within a mile of the place where they could have rented they buy a car and have to pay for gas and all that junk. And in buying that car, they chose to buy the fancy cool one that they would still be paying off 5 years later. Instead of buying groceries that would be afordable they pay for the convenience of junk food.

    Do you get my point here? I'm not saying all people do this, but that it is a problem I have noticed, and it is a problem that is very wide reaching. If there are people getting by on less than 30k a year then someone making 60k should be able to suck in their gut and even have a bit left over for a rainy day without racking up more debt than they can pay off.

    What truly bothers me are the folks who complain about their debt while they have cable, a big screen TV, a fancy sports car with 5 years of paymens left to go, live in a rich neighborhood in a house that will not be paid off for 15 years, and have to get the newest whatever to keep up the appearance that they belong among such rich neighbors. And I have seen it enough times to realise that it is not uncommon, and if there weren't so many people pretending they could aford those things then maybe prices would go down with the demand to a point where some people could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    It should be pointed out though that when it comes to the whole "Gotta pay rent, gotta buy food, gotta pay phone bills, electricity, car payments, health insurance, et cetera... and then gas sucks up every penny left" part of things; many people, even in doing these things, are not living withing their means. Instead of choosing to live in an appartment that they could afford they bought a house and put themselves into debt that way. Instead of riding a bike to their job which happens to be within a mile of the place where they could have rented they buy a car and have to pay for gas and all that junk. And in buying that car, they chose to buy the fancy cool one that they would still be paying off 5 years later. Instead of buying groceries that would be afordable they pay for the convenience of junk food.

    Do you get my point here? I'm not saying all people do this, but that it is a problem I have noticed, and it is a problem that is very wide reaching. If there are people getting by on less than 30k a year then someone making 60k should be able to suck in their gut and even have a bit left over for a rainy day without racking up more debt than they can pay off.

    What truly bothers me are the folks who complain about their debt while they have cable, a big screen TV, a fancy sports car with 5 years of paymens left to go, live in a rich neighborhood in a house that will not be paid off for 15 years, and have to get the newest whatever to keep up the appearance that they belong among such rich neighbors. And I have seen it enough times to realise that it is not uncommon, and if there weren't so many people pretending they could aford those things then maybe prices would go down with the demand to a point where some people could.
    And to add to this. It wouldnt have been this much of a problem if the money stayed in the US. However, when you buy a new intel cpu, part of the money goes to africa and asia. The same goes especially for gas for the car. When you fill up your car, you are basically sending your money to some oil-sultan. In the end all the wealth of the US slowly shifted to other parts of the worlds, because of people needs for foreigns goods.

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    Of course, by no means am I saying that people who use credit irresponsibly are not a problem... just that it's absurd to treat them as the only problem. There's also the problem of irresponsible corporate executives, and irresponsible legislators. There's plenty of blame to go around, so no point in trying to put it all on just one issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    But I admit it's a tangent, but my blood boils how everyone wants to make excuses for the poor and make it seem like they should be absolved of any accountability for this mess either.
    A suggestion. Replace "the poor" with "the irresponsible". That would give a fairer outlook. Merely look to hold the accountable accountable regardless of financial status and there will be no excuses to make for either the poor or rich.

    Poor people with their designer clothes and big screen TVs they can't afford, executives who gamble away the cash of others on risky investments, and legislators who fought to deregulate industry solely for the purpose of greed... they all are part of the problem, none of them individually caused this.

    Furthermore we should all be careful about blanket statements. Before blaming "the poor" it should be considered maybe there are poor people who scrape to get by living... let alone own luxuries. Before blaming "the CEOs" it should be considered maybe there are CEOs who stand to lose everything... despite acting with utmost integrity. Before blaming "the legislators" it should be considered maybe there are legislators who were far sighted enough to see this... and failed to stop it even with their most valiant efforts.

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  37. #30
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    Arshes Nei- I think what you're talking about here is conspicuous consumption or expenditure on visible goods. It's related to income but has a lot to do with the geographic distribution of people at different income levels and social competition. http://www.slate.com/id/2181822 has some information on it along with a link to the study mentioned in the article.

    There's also the issue of how school budgets are done in a given state. I know that in some instances it's fairly dependent on the tax base of the surrounding area- which might mean lower income districts have a much leaner school system and fewer opportunities through the school itself which has implications in terms of shifting burden to parents etc.

    I'm not saying that this justifies the priority arrangement you mentioned, but there's a lot of psychology in how lower income people present themselves- sometimes giving an impression of having a more skewed priorities than they really have in order to appear more visibly wealthy rather than talking about more invisible human capital ideas like education etc. Different income groups have different currencies of image. I think you might be overgeneralizing based on a pretty limited scope of observed knowledge.

    One also has to remember that those parents may have grown up in poverty or with absent parents- etc. etc. that has shaped what they do and do not know about managing money, investing, savings etc. I think when it comes to economic class, it's awfully difficult to mentally step into the shoes of someone else and 'get it' enough to be in a position to say how or why they do as they do. I've lived in a couple different economic worlds now (though I'm mostly feel like I'm only allowed to visit the higher one) and they truly are different worlds, to the point that it's difficult to grasp what lies outside them.

    Mainly I just doubt that the group that you're talking about really had much appreciable effect on the credit crunch we're in right now.

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