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  1. #61
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Kei View Post


    Elwell, my friend, do you actually believe that this cartoon reflects the way economies function? The way the boom years of the 1990s came to be?

    Or do you just dig dem cartoons?

    At least Icarus tried!


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    kev, I understand that the budgets under Reagan and Bush senior were under their encouragement, that they felt it wouldn't matter to go into debt, for spending on a variety of things, and that Bill Clinton vowed to balance it, forcing congress to do it, despite alot of protests and even a govt shutdown. Then Bush Jr. went to war with Iraq and it all went to shit again. I've also been told that going into debt, at least a bit isn't bad at all, and can help the economy. I'm no expert at all, and whether or when deficits are a big deal is a separate issue. But you can't dispute facts, and that cartoon states facts.

    If you could give a better explanation I'd like to read it.

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    I can't help but feeling sometimes Obama is like George "Mr. Sulu" Takei - he seems in love with the sound of his own voice at times.

    He is a great speaker, but some of that nags me...guess politics has made me too cynical in really believing what some are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post


    Elwell, my friend, do you actually believe that this cartoon reflects the way economies function? The way the boom years of the 1990s came to be?
    Do you actually believe that I think any cartoon is an accurate reflection of the way economies function? All humor is based on distortion.


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  5. #65
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Elwell, my friend, do you actually believe that this cartoon reflects the way economies function? The way the boom years of the 1990s came to be?
    Do you actually believe that I think any cartoon is an accurate reflection of the way economies function? All humor is based on distortion.
    All politics is based on distortion. All humor is based on truth. So was your thank you based upon your appreciation of the humor of the cartoon or the political statement? That is, did you find the cartoon true or true?

    TA:

    Businesses quite often are in constant need of debt financing. You hire ten workers for x amount of dollars by borrowing x amount of dollars, because the payoff at the end of the job is 27x. That's good business. Deficit spending was the way Reagan and Bush I "re-invested" in the "American Enterprise." And it worked. They also thought that costly national and state beaurocracies were threatening the financial strength and market entrepreneurship in the country so they tried to de-regulated a bunch of stuff and bust up some programs. De-regulations, while having bad consequences, also freed up tons of capital and entrepreneurial energy in the marketplace, which led to the "boom 90s." Of course some of the boom was fake, and some of the "irrational exhuberance" of the era was because Clinton was such an excellent and persuasive communicator. And some of the boom was just timing.

    Actually the budget balancing of the 90s was Newt Gingrich's pet project from his "Contract with America" which called for the "Fiscal Responsibility Act". Once he was utterly demonized by the democrats and the press as a Grinch who was out to steal Tiny Tim's crutches, Clinton began enacting some of his ideas, which included balancing the budget. But you can't balance the budget unless the revenues are good and unless the congress agrees. Congress was controlled by the Republicans at the time and they're the ones that did the whole "shutting down the government" thing because Clinton refused to cut spending sufficiently (in their opinion).

    The bubble burst in 1999 before we went into Iraq. The bubble was further burst by 9/11 which was a massive jolt to our economy. The damage has been increased by the liquidity crisis in the markets which has been probably between 37 and 47 years in the making.

    Sorry for the simplicity of this explanation.

    kev

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    I swear to God if I hear "fundamental difference" one more time.....

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    Funny. Initially, I had called out Peter.
    Kev is stinking up the thread this time.
    I thought you mellowed out Kev? I guess I was wrong.
    Do you not find debates at least, entertaining?

    And fortunately, many kinds of humor are based on many things.

    Is that cartoon not true? Show me some numbers that display otherwise.
    And show me proof that it wasn't the fiscal conservative ideology that sunk this economic ship.
    Refer me to a conservative website, and you will lose credibility. Neutral sites only please.


    ....and don't make me post clips to prove how racist Fox News is.

    Last edited by James Kei; September 28th, 2008 at 12:58 AM.
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  9. #68
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    I am often surprised that there are artists, who should have open minds and see through the crap, that end up mindlessly following the fear mongers, war makers, and lie machines. I would think, by now, after all the US has been through, that people would have had enough already. I am looking forward to Obama winning this thing. Seriously.

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    Fox News as a station isn't racist; but it certainly employs racist individuals and does not hold them accountable. Accountability of Fox News seems to be a mantle that Keith Olberman and John Stewart are happy to carry.

    Kev...why do you feel that everyone that posts on these forums isn't educated enough to make a decision? I swear that there are a few that seem to feel that they are "enlightened" and all others are ignorant news whores...that really bothers me. You (and others) are making blanket assumptions about individuals motives and knowledge base. Don't you feel it is prudent to ask the individuals why they feel the way they do, or where they are getting their information before you blast them for being uneducated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley View Post
    I am often surprised that there are artists, who should have open minds and see through the crap, that end up mindlessly following the fear mongers, war makers, and lie machines. I would think, by now, after all the US has been through, that people would have had enough already. I am looking forward to Obama winning this thing. Seriously.
    You have to realize though, that just because there is a person who does not share your political views, that they are not brainwashed zombies. You just made a few sweeping generalizations based on your own opinions and feelings. a)all artists either should or are open minded, b)anyone who opposes your own political views is close minded, and c)anyone who does not support your political views or Obama is brainwashed.

    You do not have to be an extreme liberal to be a good artist. If you want to get down to it, anyone who wholeheartedly worships one side in politics is close minded.

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    i'm reading a lot of passionate posts directed at each other instead of being directed onto a blank canvas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grief View Post
    i'm reading a lot of passionate posts directed at each other instead of being directed onto a blank canvas.
    Isn't that always the case in the lounge?

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    Kev, thanks for the reply. But as for this being decades in the making, what about repealing the glass steagall act? Didn't that recent move play a role, and what's your take on Phil Gram?

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    Quote Originally Posted by evildisco View Post
    Isn't that always the case in the lounge?
    nah the lounge is usually the internet equivalent of a cage fight between CA members who giggle and slap each other with inflatable water toys.

    its far more critical than mere ephemeral politics.

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  21. #75
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    This is where everything comes down on top of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley View Post
    I am often surprised that there are artists, who should have open minds and see through the crap, that end up mindlessly following the fear mongers, war makers, and lie machines. I would think, by now, after all the US has been through, that people would have had enough already. I am looking forward to Obama winning this thing. Seriously.
    I'm in no position to tell you what to do, but I would like to to ask you some thing.

    Why do you make this generalization about artists themselves?

    Sure, this is a site you made for artist and you own a company dedicated to outsourcing artists and connecting them with companies, corporations, and your expansion is making Massive Black one itself - for the sake of art. However; it seems you have this idea that following the democratic party, mindlessly following BLUE fear mongers, BLUE war makers, and BLUE lie machines is a paradigm to be expected and maintained by artists. That we're all lefties, should be lefties, and the only way to open-minded enlightenment is by being a lefty.

    People are different. Artists are different. We're all different. What boggles my mind is same thing you've pointed out. But, you make an assertion that in order to have had enough you have to be for the left.

    Some open-mindedness.

    I guess the only way to be open minded is by following your candidate, your party, your ideology.

    I guess I can't say what open-mindedness is anymore as the definition doesn't even matter. Many definitions don't even matter thanks to all the political one-sidedness. Conservative and Liberal serve are terms people refer to from their quick memories to label the left and right, rather than use these words for what they are.

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    Funny how people in this country define democrats as lefties.
    True left does not exist officially in the US.

    You're misunderstanding something in my opinion, Jason is just referring to the well documented liberal affectations of artists. On a general basis, the artist crowd is usually a progressive one. Of course not everyone abides to that rule but there is a lot of us who lean that way. So yes it might look like a generalization but I do have to agree that it is strange to see artists that are either conservative or extremely conservative, it is just not as common.

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    Lemme get this straight... You're castigating Jason for saying artists should be at least one of the groups that have an open mind. For the record, I not only agree with him, but would have trouble believing anything else. It comes with the artist's mindset.

    The problem seems to be on your conclusion that having an open mind means you must be a "lefty" or liberal. Where the fuck did that come from? Jason didn't say it. And I'm fairly certain that no one else here ever said it. I know many conservatives with an open mind, and the funny thing is, they agree with me that Bush and his asshole friends, his fundamentalist zombie supporters, and knee-jerk NRA/Pure Capitalism Only/All scientists are full of shit if they interfere in my making money types are a fuckin' disaster.

    I started out 8 years ago thinking of seriously supporting McCain, something I'm glad I didn't now after seeing how his current campaign is being run, supported Hillary, and now Obama.

    So...where did this "to be open-minded requires you to be a lefty" bullshit come from? Are you actually saying that everyone else who is conservative by choice has to be close-minded or brain-dead as a requirement before you get your Cap'n Reagan Badge? If that's the case, I think i may have just discovered why there are so many endless arguements on politics here that don't seem to be going anywhere--one side (by your definition) is not playing with a full deck.

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    Much more eloquent than how I put it, crazy old cat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evildisco View Post
    Funny how people in this country define democrats as lefties.
    True left does not exist officially in the US.

    You're misunderstanding something in my opinion, Jason is just referring to the well documented liberal affectations of artists. On a general basis, the artist crowd is usually a progressive one. Of course not everyone abides to that rule but there is a lot of us who lean that way. So yes it might look like a generalization but I do have to agree that it is strange to see artists that are either conservative or extremely conservative, it is just not as common.
    Well, you certainly have a point on the issue of artists in general being free and open-minded. At least that is the general assumption, and is for the most part true because artist are imaginative, creative, free-thinking etc.

    Sure. It is strange for me to see people who lean toward red/right politics while being an artist. After having gone to all the places I've been, and knowing all the people I have; I've come to realization that a lot of times, most of the time actually, these generalizations make less sense you break down the partitions we create. We're all different. Building up these walls an making list of generalizations might be good as at face value when you sum up people for job placement, where they'll like end up as a person, or a laxidasical analyzation.

    The main concern in my post was not just his generalization though, but his what I understood as stand that enlightenment and open-mindedness relate to the blue/left wing of politics.

    Last edited by GhostValkyrie; September 28th, 2008 at 07:22 AM. Reason: grammar
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    You don't need to be a liberal/blue/dem to be a good artist. I have met a few conservative/red/repub artists that I would consider to be "good".
    Though I believe they are very much the minority in most art circles.

    I rather agree with Wiki's definitions of the following. Summarized, of course.


    From Wiki: Liberalism


    The word "liberal" derives from the Latin liber ("free, not slave"), and is associated with the word "liberty" and the concept of freedom. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, a lack of limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, private property, free markets, and a transparent system of government. Liberals – as well as some adherents of other political ideologies – support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.

    Freedom of thought and speech are the big ones here that most artists are fans of.

    Also from Wiki: Conservatism

    Conservatives value traditional social norms and values, and are often opposed to rapid, sudden change or experimentation.


    Artists tend to fall out of this category because in most cases they are not socially normal, and enjoy experimentation.


    So, which category do you belong to?

    Last edited by James Kei; September 28th, 2008 at 03:12 AM. Reason: spell check
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Lemme get this straight... You're castigating Jason for saying artists should be at least one of the groups that have an open mind. For the record, I not only agree with him, but would have trouble believing anything else. It comes with the artist's mindset.

    The problem seems to be on your conclusion that having an open mind means you must be a "lefty" or liberal. Where the fuck did that come from? Jason didn't say it. And I'm fairly certain that no one else here ever said it. I know many conservatives with an open mind, and the funny thing is, they agree with me that Bush and his asshole friends, his fundamentalist zombie supporters, and knee-jerk NRA/Pure Capitalism Only/All scientists are full of shit if they interfere in my making money types are a fuckin' disaster.

    I started out 8 years ago thinking of seriously supporting McCain, something I'm glad I didn't now after seeing how his current campaign is being run, supported Hillary, and now Obama.

    So...where did this "to be open-minded requires you to be a lefty" bullshit come from? Are you actually saying that everyone else who is conservative by choice has to be close-minded or brain-dead as a requirement before you get your Cap'n Reagan Badge? If that's the case, I think i may have just discovered why there are so many endless arguements on politics here that don't seem to be going anywhere--one side (by your definition) is not playing with a full deck.


    More of this left-right crap. Just because I made a statement against someone that's blue, you make the assumption that I'm red. How many times to we have to have this conversation that my allegiance lies with none? I don't take sides, I take stands. When I find out, am presented with, your shown evidence that my position is faulted I will research and reform as necessary unless it negates my own beliefs. My beliefs themselves change over time as well.

    Take sides all you want, make these outrageous statements like "Are you actually saying that everyone else who is conservative by choice has to be close-minded or brain-dead as a requirement before you get your Cap'n Reagan Badge?"

    Cap'n Reagan Badge? Where the hell did that come from. You certainly are uppity for an educated and experienced man.

    I was talking about the generalizations of artists, and about how people are different and that neither side is perfect or a way to being enlightened or open-minded. Open-mindedness is something on the shoulders of the individuals(literally) whether right, left, middle, or outta here.

    I didn't say that either blinded, but my frustration is when people allow themselves to blinded by parties, banter, folly, or how they fervently disagree with someone's stand and then sacrifice all those beliefs and their morals when someone else comes along has party nomination. I'm not independent because I think it's retarded to be in a political party, I'm independent because the parties are corrupt and they no longer represent the changes I would've liked to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Kei View Post
    Jason's comment was a bit heavy handed, but he has a point....

    You don't need to be a liberal to be a good artist. I have met a few conservative artists that I would consider to be "good".
    Though I believe they are very much the minority in most art circles.

    I rather agree with Wiki's definitions of the following. Summarized, of course.


    From Wiki: Liberalism


    The word "liberal" derives from the Latin liber ("free, not slave"), and is associated with the word "liberty" and the concept of freedom. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, a lack of limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, private property, free markets, and a transparent system of government. Liberals – as well as some adherents of other political ideologies – support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.

    Freedom of thought and speech are the big ones here that most artists are fans of.

    Also from Wiki: Conservatism

    Conservatives value traditional social norms and values, and are often opposed to rapid, sudden change or experimentation.


    Artists tent to fall out of this category because in most cases they are not socially normal, and enjoy experimentation.


    So, which category do you belong to?
    None.
    And my reference of liberal/conservative wasn't about the definitions as the those don't even apply any more thanks to politics. People take conservative to mean imperial and militaristic, while other take liberal to mean socialist or anti-military. And in some cases, the sides are switched, manipulated, etc.

    I don't like putting myself in a category, but if you wanted to put me in your Wikipedia Search I'd rather show up under liberal.

    Last edited by GhostValkyrie; September 28th, 2008 at 07:23 AM. Reason: grammar
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    Point: You're the one who originally brought up the "open-minded artists are lefties" thing...I was simply looking for clarification.




    ...oh...and I've been voting since 1968 and never once belonged to any political party...

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    This is my first year voting for a President. I'll be damned if I let the Rethugs take it again.

    For those that have not registered yet. It's easy....

    http://www.voteforchange.com/index_obama.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Lemme get this straight... You're castigating Jason for saying artists should be at least one of the groups that have an open mind. For the record, I not only agree with him, but would have trouble believing anything else. It comes with the artist's mindset.

    The problem seems to be on your conclusion that having an open mind means you must be a "lefty" or liberal. Where the fuck did that come from? Jason didn't say it. And I'm fairly certain that no one else here ever said it.
    If this was in any way directed at me, I never said it either. I wasn't castigating anyone, I was simply pointing out the logical fallacy of making blanket generalizations, no matter how they may be true.

    Of course ending a post in "I am looking forward to Obama winning this thing. Seriously." Gives the entire post a Democratic context. One could easy infer that Jason was equating open mindedness with the Democratic party or a Liberal political attitude.

    Everyone needs to back off with the "passion" take a deep breath. This is just talking on a forum people, no need to be so defensive around every turn. Most of us are big boys and girls we can all talk about things in a logical manner without getting over emotional.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  36. #85
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    Life is unfair, deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanS View Post
    What's always the case about the lounge, sadly, is that not everyone is entitled to an opinion here.
    EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion, but other people are equally entitled to say they don't agree.

    It bothers me when people say their opinions aren't being "allowed" just because other people express disagreement with those opinions.

    What do you want people to do? Keep their disagreements to themselves? Then you'll be the one not allowing certain people to express opinions.

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  39. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanS View Post
    That said, there are people here who have the luxury of posting pretty much whatever they want.. it's not that complicated.. Elwell and Ilaekae won't get banned for being jerks, but I will.

    The people that dish it out the most seem to be the first to lock threads, ban people, act childish and condescending and sometimes just plain fucking rude.
    I think you're exaggerating a little here. People on all sides have been rude, and I don't think anyone's been banned for it. We actually rarely ban people, and I don't think anyone has been banned for any political opinions. Threads get locked when they start to spiral out of control, not for the political opinions in those threads.

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    Can you please give me an example of a political thread that was closed before getting "out of control" by your definition?

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  43. #89
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    GhostValkyrie is offline The deep satisfaction of radical ends.. Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanS View Post
    Hardly. Expressing disagreement is an opinion isn't it? There's nothing wrong with that. Don't put words in my mouth.

    That said, there are people here who have the luxury of posting pretty much whatever they want.. it's not that complicated.. Elwell and Ilaekae won't get banned for being jerks, but I will.
    You have to try pretty hard to get banned from what I can tell. As for those two being condescending, rude, or jerks; I have to agree with you there.

    I don't think you'll get banned for being a jerk, but if you're not a jerk it will make you bigger person for that matter. It's not something I would test, though.

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  45. #90
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    I know this is quite old but some Aussies might remember this handshake between Howard and Latham that some political analysts say cost Latham the PM position but then again he turned out to be a bit of a weirdo...

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...667808873.html

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