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Thread: Martial Law?

  1. #1
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    Martial Law?

    http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/0...eland_090708w/

    would appear that martial law is just around the corner? or just beefing up the 'grid'?


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    I think it's finally recognizing that the government hasn't exactly been on the ball in helping out our own people when it comes to natural disasters. A little more focus on the problems within our own borders is a good idea.

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    we could never have the resources to truly occupy our own country. iraq could fit in illinois.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post
    we could never have the resources to truly occupy our own country. iraq could fit in illinois.
    But our people seem a bit more controllable.

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    If the US' population is sheeple then why would there need to be martial law or any physical occupation? Any "normal" citizen would comply with the government without having to resort to force.

    Seems kind of contradictory don't you think? The people in tin foil hats can't have it both ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    But our people seem a bit more controllable.
    we are happy and patriotic

    there really isn't a revolution in the wings here, not even much reform

    i dont think we are more controllable, just more content, despite the hardships,
    most aren't that mad. and wherever this country is headed i doubt soccer moms will go Watts, any time soon.

    i was simply posing the hypothetical that if there was a similar hatred here, for an occupying force, they'd be as effective as they are elsewhere.

    regular police forces have been kicked out of a few US cities, temporarily ...there is some small precedent. where even swat and the natl. guard had to retreat.

    hopefully reassuring BLAHM that we wont be in a police state any time soon.

    its the riskiest sloppiest most unpredictable, least effective form of social control. (did i mention the cost?)

    BuckWeisel: we aren't sheeple more like cattle We graze, ruminate...an occasional "running of the bulls" ... then just all stampede off a cliff if its seems like a good idea that day.
    Last edited by kingshaj; September 20th, 2008 at 09:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post
    regular police forces have been kicked out of a few US cities, temporarily ...there is some small precedent. where even swat and the natl. guard had to retreat.

    hopefully reassuring BLAHM that we wont be in a police state any time soon.
    As a nation, probably not. However, in areas where natural disasters occur there is often the existance of a temporary police state. In the case of Katrina I heard about some fairly questionable procedures. (including the confiscation of personally owned firearms)

    I'm not saying thats whats going on here, but I think it wise to be on the lookout for anything that has the possibility of going in that direction.

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    Well i feel like we live in a police state already, but that aside, what i believe that this is effectivly doing is getting people used to the idea of seeing army trops in major cities and towns etc. Yes this could be something useful in the arena of disaster realife, but why the enficise on employing non leathal weapons? Crowd control is important when damming a levi i guess.

    My guess is once this mechinism is in place there will be some kind of terrorist attack and in turn forcing people to accept this "solution". But that is just my opinion. Having been in the army i have trouble accepting their humanitarian agendas.

    All of the "extremist Islam" propaganda being circulated by the media gatekeepers is increasing as well. Did anyone find that free DVD documentary that was put in many newpapers across the country? This inflamitory nonsence has a very specific political purpose.

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    Looks like a direct result of Hurricane Katrina, and the ill-prepared LA State agencies crying for Federal Aid and throwing fits that the Federal Government didn't come to they're aid in time... While they sat with thumbs up they're collective arse as the Hurricane approached... Meanwhile, next door in Mississippi, the Governor declared a state of emergency days before the hurricane hit and got FEMA to preposition assets for recovery and evacuation...

    I think its sad that the Federal Government gets more authority that the States have had for years. This is the direct result of the Feds saving face. Its not the end of the free world however, I suspect under a decent minded Administration it shouldn't be abused. However, I am naturally suspicious.

    Disasters are what State agencies are best at. Its what the local authorities should already be prepared for as the first responders! It starts at the town/city, county, and state levels. Heck, governors even have the ability to ask other governors for aid! Why does every governor seem to cry to the Federal Government for aid first?

    I'm part of an organization that takes the place of the National Guard in the event of disaster when the National Guard is deployed overseas, or even to augment the National Guard when there is a disaster, along with all the other State Agencies. I see no reason for a Combat Brigade in the Active Federal Service to be put on alert for disaster across this country, unless its something that happens in the area around were the Brigade is stationed! Even then, the Federal Government needs to ASK the State Government IF they need help. But thats just too old fashioned ain't it...

    Don't panic yet! I'd write a letter to your Senator and Representative, along with your Governor! Sure, you might get a form letter back, but when you consider how few people do actually write they're legislators and government, you'd be amazed at how much your letter might actually be read...
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    "They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

    I wonder if my post of "really good intelligence or preparations for false terror" applies.


    The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.


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    I do find it a bit disturbing how the clip with the riot/protest was framed "A mob is on the attack" huh? It was some kids throwing rocks, fire works, and bottles at armored, shield wielding police who are allowed to gas, beat, and torture(pain compliance) you. Then followed immidiately by Mr. Hardcore saying, "Its a tactical nightmare for a soldier" and then saying "the modern battlefield is so complex the warfighter needs options" That kinda language is really dangerous when talking about civil unrest...So police are warfighters now? I'm not of the opinion that we're in immidiate danger of a police state or anything like that...but like has already been said, it doesn't need to go that far. As long as it looks like you still have rights like the right to assemble and free speech then you don't need to make legislation to remove it. Anyone not protesting within their "free speech zone" is a rioting criminal though. I do applaud the seeming accuracy of the ADS, but it's use to quell dissent seems almost too powerful to be used in anything other than an actual military conflict.

    The increasing militarization of the police frightens me, and that tired old argument "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" is bullshit anyway...What if they decide what you're doing is wrong? Sure stockpiling bomb making materials is certainly something that should be looked into, but with the attitude of preemptive detainment and arrests, how far up the speculation chain does that go? I had a copy of the anarchists cookbook when I was in high school...but I had no intention of blowing anything other than some bottles in my backyard up. What about visiting websites, or saying key words over the cellphone or IM? Say you want to see for yourself what some blacklisted group is actually saying...is that cause enough? The problem is these actions can always be defended by invoking the fear of terrorism. At what point does self-preservation become self-destruction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthogua View Post
    I do applaud the seeming accuracy of the ADS, but it's use to quell dissent seems almost too powerful to be used in anything other than an actual military conflict.
    I agree. I also think that in the odd event that revolution would be warranted this thing puts way too much power in the hands of the government.

    It also bothers me that it seems to have been designed specifically for use on American civilians. In other countries most Americans wouldn't pay attention to the fact that lethal force is being used by our military, therefore the higherups would feel no need to put the cash into research that the ADS probably required. It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising and wants to be able to quell it without pissing off the rest of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    I agree. I also think that in the odd event that revolution would be warranted this thing puts way too much power in the hands of the government.

    It also bothers me that it seems to have been designed specifically for use on American civilians. In other countries most Americans wouldn't pay attention to the fact that lethal force is being used by our military, therefore the higherups would feel no need to put the cash into research that the ADS probably required. It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising and wants to be able to quell it without pissing off the rest of the population.
    On one hand, how could you expect them to do anything different? What reason could they have to NOT use the most potent technology available to quell uprisings/dissent. That rational is already being used to justify unwarranted wire tapping and data mining. The ADS is also the perfect PR weapon. They don't have to kill anyone, which strategists are realizing only emboldens resistance, but they have the power to disperse any group they choose thus retaining control over who is and isn't allowed to be somewhere, and controlling the discourse of a protest.

    On the other hand, I think military weapons technology has no place as a means to police a supposedly democratic society. By upping the stakes they're really only asking for an arms race with demonstrators/protesters/revolutionaries. By creating free speech zones, then using suppressive technology like this, they don't have to take you're freedom of speech or assembly for you to have effectively lost it. Do I think there's some smokey dimly lit room where a bunch of old white men in suits are plotting how to enslave the people of the world? Absolutely not. That DOES not mean however that increased control, and decreased privacy and individual freedomes might not be an emergent trait of an increasingly technologically advanced society, where the engine of capitalism has been channeled into producing weapons systems, and military communications and networking technology. A state would of course use the most advanced means at it's disposal to ensure it's continued existence. There are technological trends in the other direction though, that ultimately benefit the stateless, or the anti-state. The unrestricted internet, wireless technologies, and increasingly smaller and higher quality recording devices being the biggest. No longer do groups require leaflets and direct word of mouth to spread their message. It's become much more difficult to control what information gets out of a certain area in terms of video of photographic, audio, and video evidence of actions. The main means of control in favor of the state at that point becomes government friendly, corporate controlled media. Once again, we don't need state run media, or to revoke the freedom of the press if the private entities that do run the media are in bed with the state. Then all they have to do is ridicule or otherwise attempt to discredit independent media sources to maintain a lock on the information people get and what their opinions on the matter are.

    It's definitely going to be an interesting future, one way or the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    It seems that the US is expecting some sort of uprising....
    Indeed it does, doesn't it. I think there will be an unplesant event soon.. its been alluded to throughout the media aswell.. asthough something is brewing. This I bet will give perfect cause for martial law. Watch as human rights violations skyrocket and fall upon increasingly def ears.

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    zombie virus

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    I was thinking more along the lines of millions of unicorns taking to arms.
    THINK ABOUT IT.

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    Let's get the party started!

    Yep, the wheels are in motion.......not any time "soon" I'd guess, maybe like 5 or 10 years or so, but yeah, we are being coralled into a totalitarian police state indeed. Marketing 101. The government creates a problem, then "sells" us a solution thet we would otherwise have rejected, manipulating the masses through fear (terrorists are out to get you!), ignorance (They hate us for our freedom!), and manipulation of wealth/money, and resources (gas, oil, food etc.).

    The laws have already been passed to facilitate it....

    -Military Commissions Act of 2006
    -John Warner Defense Authorization Act (2006)
    -NSPD 51 (2007)
    -Protect America Act of 2007
    -The Homegrown Terrorist Act of 2007
    (off the top of my head, to name a few)

    The infrastructure is now being set up to enforce it....

    Dept. Of Homeland Security
    FEMA
    Real ID
    Fusion Centers
    Infragard
    Choicepoint
    (again, off the top of my head, to name a few)

    Once the infrastructure is in place, we are basically one "emergency" away from dictatorship.

    Who really owns and controls the U.S.?
    -Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderbergs, Federal Reserve, "World" Bank, and the "International" Monetary Foundation (IMF).

    Time to start taking a little responsibilty and doing your homework, folks.

    Fascist Dictatorship 101 by Adolf Hitler:
    - Staged terrorist attacks against his own country (Reichstag Fires)
    - Passed a bunch of laws stripping the citizens of their rights to "protect them from terrorists" (Fire Laws)
    - Manipulate the masses through fear, propaganda, and fervent nationalism
    - Passed laws making himself exempt from criminal prosecution for the acts he committed or was about to commit
    - Convinced the masses that a genocidal military campaign was the solution to their problems

    Sound familiar?

    Other interesting things to read up on......

    - The North American Union - the merging of the U.S, Canada, and Mexico. I'm guessing this is part of the "solution" that will be sold to us to remedy our "problems" in 5 or 10 years.
    -The history of the Federal Reserve, which is a privately owned and operated corporation. That's right, our economy is manipulated and controlled for the profit of private individuals.
    http://political-resources.com/fedres/index.htm
    -The attempted military coup in 1934 in the United States, called "The Business Plot", orchestrated by the ruling elite bankers and heads of industry (including Prescott Bush, George Bush's grandfather), in an attempt to take control of the U.S. government and establish a fascist dictatorship. Hey, isn't that what's happening now? What a wacky coincidence!
    - Find out who was indicted under the "Trading With Enemy Act" after WWII. Interesting to learn where some of the Bush family fortune came from.
    -The History of the C.I.A.
    -MK Ultra, Operation Northwoods, Operation Paperclip
    -Eisenhower's farewell address to the United States in 1960 (he warned us about what is happening now)
    -False Flag Attack
    - The Rockefellars and the Rothschilds


    Recommended Reading -

    Hegemony Or Survival - Noam Chomsky
    Failed States - Noam Chomsky (a review of this book when it came out was scheduled to be aired on NPR, but was pulled at the last minute. Curious why this book was censored from public radio?)
    Confessions Of An Economic Hitman - John Perkins - outlines what "foreign policy" really means
    Blowback, and Nemesis - Chalmers Johnson - more info on U.S. "foreign policy" and American history that you won't see on TV
    The Most Secret Science - Archibald E. Roberts - Written in the early eighties. Explains what is happening now.



    Documentaries:

    Check out stuff by John Pilger (War On Democracy, etc.), Adam Curtis (The Trap, etc.), Greg Palast (American Blackout, which he said was banned from American airwaves, etc.), Fiat Empire, Terrorstorm

    There's a lot more info out there than this, but it's a good start.

    If you live in a major metropolitan area, check out your local town hall or independant bookstores for lecturers or speakers that are touring and sharing their insights on what is happening. Here in Seattle every 2 weeks or so there are authors/academics etc. coming through town and speaking. (Seattle Town Hall and Elliot Bay Books, fyi)

    I'm not saying I'm "right" or this stuff is "true", but after the last few years and a few hundred hours of doing my homework,trying to figure out what 9/11, the occupation of the Midele East, fraudulent elections, tanking economy etc. are all about, these are the conclusions I've come to. And I have found many, many successful, intelligent people who have come to the same conclusions.

    Hate to sound cliche, but freedom isn't free.......I think it's time we started taking a little responsibility for our country here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
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    The ADS is actually a byproduct of this technology with the "volume" turned down
    .


    There have been reports of this weapon being used on people in Iraq. Like the ADS there is a Humvee mounted version. Inside cars there were corpses with the head of the victim fried to the bone yet the body and clothing from the shoulders down were intact. Here is a short 3 part documentary on where the "mysterious" weapon was used.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oe92UbdoIY

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    the idea of the USID makes me ill,
    although ive spent the night in jail for walking home from school, not having my wallet on me.

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    Guys, as an outsider, and having visited the US very recently, my humble opinion is that police state is allready in your houses. I honestly felt violated just by walking around in the streets of Manhattan!

    The sad thing is, that talking with american citizens, I realised that many feel safe under these circumstances. The whole nation is misguided that the problem with terrorism and anti-patriotic behaviour in general, is not the goverment policy, but the fact that "everyone hates USA", so we have to find "everyone", and hunt them down by any means.

    I say that not at all naively. I witnessed face controls in public transportation, I recieved weird looks from officials everywhere, because I'm not caucasian, but the problem is not what I recieved, as a foreigner. The real problem is that people in the States are under more and more surveillance every day. And they don't feel violated, they don't react, because the System makes them believe that it's O.K., as long as you're not a bad guy, this has to go on to catch all the bad guys there are.

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    And it goes to a whole new level with this...

    Homeland Security Detects Terrorist Threats by Reading Your Mind
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    i realize this is unbearably cliche (eyes all roll) but:
    ive begun re-reading 1984 because of this thread....
    and im an hour into it and i can not believe how uncannily on point it is.

    re: all of the above..but, perhaps more interestingly, he hints as to how we all let it happen slowly ..and what exactly is believed to be gained in the socio-political landscape by his fictitious world govts.


    its the underpinnings of this book that have caught me off guard ...and were apparently way over my head on the last read..

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    Perhaps someone should step in and take some damage from both sides.

    I don't like taking sides, and sometimes it is really hard not to. However; people need to think about where they're going and who they're banking on. These things happen because people let it happen, and imagine if some of these measures were never put into place. How would our civilization have advanced if we didn't allow some of these outrageous and immoral events?

    On one side, you have critically left-brainers that believe control is the only way to move forward. Without a structure, many people would meander throughout life wrecking havoc. It makes sense, but their means by which they reach ends if horrible and leads to destruction.

    The right-brainers think that it's a peaches n' cream when absolute freedom is granted, and people are left to their own devices. What would happen if everyone marched on Washington and 'put a stop to this'? What we have would fall apart, everything we've worked for would go out the window and we would face another civil war. Likely others nations would turn the game on us and have to quell the unrest. A nightmarish free for all would ensue and everything would be set back many years. If you think the economy and martial are bad now, wait until you destroy what little good there is and others rise up.

    PMCs and foreign militaries would jump on the chance to conquer the bully and get a piece of the pie.

    I don't like a lot of the things we're doing, and I believe it to be wrong; We should try and think about this logically and morally. If we keep choosing one-sided paradigms we're going to continue this cycle. I don't like the idea of globalization because it gives the chance for the rise of a global dictatorship. Sometimes though, it would make sense for the world to have a banner of our global prosperity, commerce, and community.

    How we ever going to take to the stars and move beyond what we have when we're too busy destroying each other and drawing borders on this world?

    I'll admit I let myself be a victim to one side before, and the other. From my experiences and insight into both ideologies; I've found myself in the middle.

    Who here is going to go out and stage a revolt, seriously? No one. You'll lose everything you have. Even if you win, we'll find ourselves on the street, under bridges, invaded, gas prices will be cheap compared to the result of domestic unrest, families will be even more ripped apart, the country would fold in on itself and it could set a horrible precedent for the rest of the world.

    Seriously, how different are you people? Are any of you thinking of the consequences of your own actions, or are you simply thinking of how it effects you? Perhaps many of you should incorporate yourselves into the machine, and help to change it's direction rather than standing in front of it or seeking to beat it with a wrench.

    Even at that... I'll have to finish this later.

    The point is, think about the consequences of your actions or the actions of others. Think about your side, question your side and maybe even try to understand the other side. After lots of reading and looking into the conspiracy theories and comparing it to my own experiences in the military - it's obvious we're in an empire, and one that is already socialist. However; when questioning those things and thinking about the other side of it, I've realized it's not so black and white. And as horrible the things are that have happened, some good has happened and perhaps a better future is possible because of them.

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    as someone in the middle of this debate (my posts are all over the place..lol)

    i dont think anyone here has advocated anarchy ..just want the camera out of the bathroom.

    im assuming the "sides" you refer to are the sides of the political spectrum?
    if so, both ideologies demand personal freedom, and a lack of governmental intervention in personal lives.

    both the red and blue are terrified of the above...it might be the one issue that is agreed upon.
    the only question left is ...is it really happening? or is it just an earnest attempt at protecting the populace? or just pure "tin-foilery"

    personally i'm on the fence.

    EDIT: if i've misunderstood your definition of the word "sides" could you then mean ..pro or anti surveillance?


    ps:as i read Orwell is referring to this debate as "blackwhite" the idea that you need a populace that can believe "it" is happening and yet find that same idea preposterous simultaneously...providing a unique mix of paranoia and aloofness ..fear and confidence.

    in short to get used to being conflicted about the reality of any piece of information. and becoming comfortable in that space he refers to as "blackwhite"
    and "doublethink", is encouraged to get to this space. ..to eventually become physically incapable of choosing a "side".


    i realize this is just of course a work of fiction having more to do with stalin and trotsky than western imperialism.
    -

    -
    Last edited by kingshaj; September 24th, 2008 at 12:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post
    i realize this is unbearably cliche (eyes all roll) but:
    ive begun re-reading 1984 because of this thread....
    and im an hour into it and i can not believe how uncannily on point it is.

    re: all of the above..but, perhaps more interestingly, he hints as to how we all let it happen slowly ..and what exactly is believed to be gained in the socio-political landscape by his fictitious world govts.


    its the underpinnings of this book that have caught me off guard ...and were apparently way over my head on the last read..
    I always liked 1984, but Huxley's Brave New World always seemed more on point to me. I guess it depends on how you look at things, but 1984 made the totalitarian govt seem so austere whereas the BNW form was more seductive (if you were in the upper class) and seemed like what we have already gotten ourselves into; a world where nobody cared if the government watched so long as they could enjoy doing whatever they wanted to do.

    As with us, the reason nobody is complaining is because they still get to keep their TVs, their porn, their games, and whatever other silly senseless junk makes them happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Coene View Post
    I always liked 1984, but Huxley's Brave New World always seemed more on point to me. I guess it depends on how you look at things, but 1984 made the totalitarian govt seem so austere whereas the BNW form was more seductive (if you were in the upper class) and seemed like what we have already gotten ourselves into; a world where nobody cared if the government watched so long as they could enjoy doing whatever they wanted to do.

    As with us, the reason nobody is complaining is because they still get to keep their TVs, their porn, their games, and whatever other silly senseless junk makes them happy.
    yes fantastic book....touches on anti depressants,a genetically engineered caste system. and predicts muzak!


    Whereas Orwell's vision is very influenced by post war england and russia (wrote it in '47), and used alot of the fresh memories of breadlines and shoelessness and news reels, to tell his tale. (thus all the austerity )

    he makes the point through "Goldstein" that a truly sedate society will eventually collapse...thus, he posits, the need for constant war, to unite and divide us simultaneously keeping the nation strong in its division and unity. celebrated in something called "hate-week" .

    the cost of war keeping the above true and the rewards of war are re-invested to keep the cycle going.
    and has a fascinating bit about the necessity for an unbeatable yet hoplessly inefficient military.
    the necessity to use the lowest of your military tech. in the largest quantities. ..in the book they use "old fashioned" weapons and fight primarily in africa the middle east and the antarctic.

    ..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.

    ..although he does explain the removal of capitalism through a sort slow evolution of a credit system. one never quite owns anything but nothing is communal either..sort of a perpetual almost "paid off" state. (as described in the fictional "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", by the fictional "Emmanuel Goldstein")
    Last edited by kingshaj; September 24th, 2008 at 01:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post

    ..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.
    We are in a post capitalist world, somewhat. The blending of socialism and capitalism has spawned corporatism.
    Last edited by GhostValkyrie; September 24th, 2008 at 01:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post
    ..but it does take place in a post capitalist world...so he certainly was no psychic.

    ..although he does explain the removal of capitalism through a sort slow evolution of a credit system. one never quite owns anything but nothing is communal either..sort of a perpetual almost "paid off" state. (as described in the fictional "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", by the fictional "Emmanuel Goldstein")
    Quote Originally Posted by GhostValkyrie View Post
    We are in a post capitalist world, somewhat. The blending of socialism and capitalism has spawned corporatism.
    I have to definately agree with GV on this one. We are not living in a truly capitalist system and have been steadily moving away from capitalism. I would leave this alone as a sepparate political discussion, but it does apply in that reliance of a large chunk of the population upon the state is probably the easiest way to control said population.

    Whether we could actually say that what we are moving towards is socialism? I can't say. I'm not sure if "corporatism" as GV calls it is the right word for it either, though it does sound about right.

    Be that as it may, we are still stuck with the question of what do we DO? Thats where I'm at a loss. On these boards I have been accused of being a rightwing nutjob, but honestly, I just disagree with everyone because I can't stand either political side, and since most of the people around here are pro-Obama then thats what you get to see me objecting to. The way I figure it, anyone who already has their mind made up to vote for either major candidate is a tool of the system in place, a simple pawn for one party or the other.

    edit: sorry... I'm just a bit irritable when it comes to this stuff... I'll try to keep quiet on this... at least untill someone directly replies to this... darn I hate my inability to keep what I find important to myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj View Post
    im assuming the "sides" you refer to are the sides of the political spectrum?
    if so, both ideologies demand personal freedom, and a lack of governmental intervention in personal lives.
    This is something that I am not seeing. The growth of the government and the degree to which it is creeping in to affect so many aspects of everyday life indicate that while the ideologies may call for personal freedom, the ideological banner carriers seem to regard government intervention necessary to secure personal freedom. It's akin to jailing someone for their own safety.

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