Art: Another Classical Atelier Thread - Page 2

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  1. #31
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    I am amazed how well the Bargue drawing course has been received.

    How are they presented at the atelier in Stockholm? Are the plates enlarged or is it up to the student?

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  3. #32
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    The Bargue torso looks really tough! It'll be exciting to see how that one progresses! Solis hälsar...

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  4. #33
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    Thanks guys!

    Graydon: We have photocopied and laminated reproductions of the plates from the book, I don't know whether they are full size or not, but I've seen some of the same plates in different sizes. On the Beldevere WIP, for example, you can see my piece of paper to the left, that's an A4. It's the biggest Bargue of the three. After this one I'm doing a charcoal Bargue, and those copies are usually larger.

    Jakke: moikka.

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  5. #34
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    Hi, Serpian! I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread of yours! I think you're on your way of becoming an amazing artist!

    I'd like to comment on your discussion about sight size and comparative measuring. I prefer using the comparative method for drawing simply because it is a very natural process. There's no need for a set-up. Just grab your pencil and paper and start drawing. However, I've done a couple of Bargues using sight-size and I have to say that I've learned quite a few things about drawing by practicing that method.

    I do agree with your instructor's opinions about both methods. Comparative is really difficult though. The hardest part for me is getting those initial measurements down on paper. I suppose those measurements are not totally meant to be 100% accurate in the beginning. I think they're more like good estimates that give you good starting points to eventually arrive at an accurate depiction of the subject.

    Anyway, keep up the great work!

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  6. #35
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    Very insightful thread Serpian, filled with tons of great bits of knowledge and nice to see you progress.

    Never knew about the sight-seeing and comparative methods, but I kinda grasp those concepts a while ago, while doing life drawings. I agree that the comparative method is a bit harder, but it help me a lot in getting better at proportions. One exercise that push me in doing it was when my instructor push me in doing life drawing on bigger paper, from my 24 inch long papers to a 32. It helped so much.

    Those memory exercises sound pretty good and for sure, will try the out. Thanks for sharing this info and look forward to see how you progress.

    SKETCHBOOK SUPPORTGROUP #48
    Maestro Andres | CouchPotato | Mono2k5 | Sawa | 0shade0

    "The aim of figure drawing is never to copy the model but to analyze it." - sfa
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  7. #36
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    Hi there Serpian.

    Student from Florence Academy of Art, Gothenburg here.
    Cool to see a member from conceptart inrolled at atelier stockholm.

    So how is the school? read about the workshop you had with the guy from weta workshop. Sounded like a intresting lecture.

    The bargues are looking great. Finsihed my bargues last trimester. Just got started on my first cast.


    Cheers!

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  8. #37
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    Thanks!

    Dizon and Maestro Andres: I think the Bargues is as close as we get to sight-size, and even then our teacher encourages us to measure less and compare more, so I can't really add much to that discussion, as I haven't experienced sight-size myself. It would be interesting to try it out though, so I could see the differences first hand.

    Pencilator: Hi there! The school is great, very challenging and a nice atmosphere. I still feel like I should be doing a lot on my own though, if I want to really progress. And I'm gonna do that.. Tomorrow? It'd be nice for our schools to meet up sometimes and, I don't know, do stuff together. By the way, here is a link to a classmate of mine who's on ca.org, and here is the thread of a former student at that school.


    This Friday we visited the studio museum of Swedish painter Julius Kronberg, in Skansen.

    This is from his studio, I stood right in front of that painting, and it's huge! The second row of small frames to the right, from the bottom, is about eye level... Here is another picture from inside the studio.


    And just a small update on my Bargue... After a long period of getting bogged down, I've finally gone on to flat values - still going very carefully and always ready to erase where need be.
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    People usually say that in order to draw something accurately, you can't just draw a foot, or a leg, but see the abstract shapes that build it up, and draw those. A good way to spot the errors in your abstract shapes is to try to find recognizable shapes in them, and compare those to the original. We often find different animals or figures. Here, for example is:

    1. An eagle head.
    2. A rabbit or sphinx
    3. A diving whale or bird
    4. A Christmas tree or Jabba the Hutt (you decide, folks!)
    5. A weird heart or a weird pacman shape
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    Once you've located these shapes in the original and your drawing (and stopped laughing at them), you can use the flip-book method of spotting errors. You know how you can draw small stick figures on the pages of a book and then flip through it to get an animation? You can do this here as well, but instead of flipping pages, you look quickly from one shape to it's original, and if there's a difference, you'll see it move around. It really works! You should focus at a small shape or angle to notice the dancing, and it should look something like this:
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    See you later!

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  10. #38
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    wow serpian. *_*
    great progress and helpful tips.
    thank you.

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  11. #39
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    Thankd for the kind words in y sketchbook. Guess we need to hook up and sketch next time I come to Stockholm.
    You do know both of our schools are going to be in the same exhibition here in Gothenburg next year, together with a few artist from Norway, Odd Nerdrums group.


    By the way it's cool that you take time to show the way of seeing shapes to everyone else here on the forum, thumbs up.

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  12. #40
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    Screw anything else, I have to say you have A FANTASTIC ATTITUDE.
    That alone ought to get you far!

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  13. #41
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    Serpian, watching your progress (I'm a lurker normally) is fascinating and inspiring. Thank you

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  14. #42
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    Thanks guys! Pencilator, I haven't heard of that exhibition. I have to ask my teachers! Dmitri, thanks!

    Here's another WIP shot of my old pal Belvedere. This was taken this Wednesday, so I'm a little bit further along. Hans told me today that if I don't have it finished by next Friday, he'll burn out my non-dominant eye with his laser pointer. Or cut my junk off, depending on his mood. So. I'm motivated!

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    And here's some figure drawings, all of them are three hour poses, twenty minutes pose, five minutes pause.
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    And a portrait.
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  16. #43
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    ...Have you actually made that "let's draw other student's portraits" work on your own or... is this arrangement more due to the portrait models just not showing up?

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  17. #44
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    Serpian:

    PM'D.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
    -John Huston, Director
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  18. #45
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    dmitri, we have portrait drawing every Monday afternoon, and the arrangement simply is that we sit for each other. But later we will have a model and do a three day pose, I believe.


    OmenSpirits sent me an interesting question over PM, and I thought I'd share it with everyone:

    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits
    I noticed in you Fine arts thread where you are taught the Bargue style of sight see.

    I'm, outside of a classroom, using the Charles Bargue Drawing Course book.

    It's teaching me to 'see' and solve drawing issues, especially when drawing without ref. Though I am modifying the teachings for my own.

    I do fear I'll just become a copycat due in fact that my skills prior to said book were sporadic and inconsistent.

    Being that you're studying (at more advanced level to say) do you have reservations of such?

    Thanks.


    Hi!

    First of all, the school I'm studying at does not teach the sight-size method, although, when we're doing the Bargues, we do draw them the same size as the original. You can read more about what our teacher thinks about sight-size here.

    But, to answer your question: What we're doing is, of course, copying the Bargues. So in that sense, we're not doing anything individual, and the result is just that; a copy. But we are not doing the Bargues just to learn how to do Bargues. We're not in this school so that we can copy Bargues for the rest of our lives!

    What we're doing, instead, is following a logical step-by-step process of learning, starting with the Bargues, going on to more difficult cast drawings, and in the end we will be able to paint anything. Doing Bargues as a start is much easier than beginning with a complicated still life or trying to do a finished model painting. The Bargues teach us, as you said, to see. I've learned to look at shapes and values in a different way. I will use what I have learned, later, when I do more complicated stuff. And that's why we do the Bargues.

    However, doing Bargues probably won't improve your skills in drawing from the imagination. To do that, you have to do a lot of drawing from the imagination as well as doing studies. That way you can use what you have learned doing all your studies. For example: You can see in my thread that my second Bargue was the leg and foot. I have also done a lot of figure drawings. So now, when I draw a leg from my imagination, I can use what I have learned about the knee from that Bargue and all the figure drawings, and my drawing from imagination will look more like a real knee.

    So, if you don't want to be a copycat, doing Bargues for the rest of your life, you should do a lot of things, Bargue studies, life drawing, drawing from your imagination, everything. Then you will really improve.

    Hope this makes sense!


    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits
    Hey thanks for responding.

    I get what you're saying. I guess Iy's the same thing I'm doing. Using Bargue as a foundation of shape and form. I switch from his lessons, to loomis & sometime bridgman, but his sketches are just a little incomplete to pick up as much as I do from loomis.

    That leg & the bust are in later parts of the book I've got (don't know if its the same so I won't assume)
    and I'm working my way towards it.

    I definitely understand what you're saying. Mine was just a worry.

    Hi!

    Bridgman is very sketchy and sometimes very hard to understand. But his understanding of volume and mass is still very good to try to learn from. Other anatomy books can be very easy to understand and to learn all the muscles from, but sometimes they are just a bit lifeless. Bridgman knows how to put life into his anatomy, and that is the most important thing you can learn from him.

    It's good that you use different books and try to learn different things, both Bridgman and Loomis are good. But the most important thing is still drawing from life, and doing it much! That way all that you have learned about values and shapes from Bargue, all that you have learned about muscles and bones from Bridgman, and all that you have learned about gesture and proportions from Loomis can be used to make a great life drawing. And this in turn helps your drawings from imagination.

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  19. #46
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    awesome thread SERPIAN! subscribed!

    "Nihil est in intellectu quod non prius in sensu" | SB | Portfolio | FJGC (blog) | DA (Profile) | EJERCICIOS DE COLOR
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  21. #47
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    Hoookay, long time since last post, sorry about that. Holidays and everything, you know...

    Ok, first off, the finished Belvedere that I actually finished months ago, one day before the latest post in this thread!
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    Then, my next and last Bargue copy, the profile of Dante, in charcoal.
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    And lastly, the long pose in charcoal I did before christmas. It was really a five week pose, but doe to different circumstances I only worked on it for about three weeks.
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    Now I'm working on my first cast drawing, and let me tell you, it's though! I'll update as the story develops...

    EDIT: Oh and here's the one week model drawing we did during the Russian Method Workshop, when painting genius Alexander Novoselov came to show us the aproach to figure drawing in the Repin Academy in St. Petersburg!
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    Last edited by Serpian; January 19th, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
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  23. #48
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    very cool stuff man - and very helpful and insightful tips!!!

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  24. #49
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    Awesome figure drawings ! And that Belvedere torso is awesome.
    Do you have a list of the different levels of difficulty for the Bargue drawings ?

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  25. #50
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    great work! the three week pose is very good.

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  26. #51
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    I'll be back on that book when my sight is fixed (hopefully after tomorrow and a wek of healing). But, I did spend the time drawing, with on good eye, from other books and have really gotten better.

    Good depth on the bust!



    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
    -John Huston, Director
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  27. #52
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    Lovely work!

    I never realised there was such a place as Atelje Stockholm when I was in Sweden (grew up there)! I'm really tempted to take one of the summer workshops to see what the school is like.
    For someone who has done a little life drawing and no traditional painting (just digital), is there a workshop/teacher that you would recommend?

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  28. #53
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    Guys! Thank you so much for your kind replies!

    Sky_Eagle, no I don't have a list, but the level one Bargues usually are some kind of profile like the one I did, the level two ones usually are hands or legs or feet, and the level three ones usually are some gibber bust or figure. But there are much more plates in the book than the ones I've seen, and I guess every teacher puts the different plates in different categories.

    OmenSpirits! Man I have no idea of what you're going through right now, but I wish you the best! When you do your Bargues, remember to take time to really get the drawing right before you start modeling. That is pretty far the key. When you get to the modeling stage, try to make everything as perfect as possible. The trick to get a nice looking Bargue is hard work....

    Applecheeks, the school has only been here for life three of four years, so it's no surprise you haven't heard of it! Of the workshops they offer this summer, I'd recommend the figure drawing one with Hans. It's the most basic one, and the one I think you would get the most out of. But take the one you want to!


    Okay, so I've started my first cast drawing. This is the setup. The curtains isolate the spotlight to the cast it's supposed to light. We mark a place round two meters away from the cast. This is the place we always return to to see the cast in the same angle every time. We look at the cast, walk towards the paper, draw, go back to the mark to check, and so on.
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    This is the charcoal, BTW. We import Fusains Nitram charcoal from France. The difference from vine charcoal is that these are made of strips of solid wood, which means there is no soft core. This in turn means they can be sharpened to a very fine point. There are three softnesses, B, HB and H. I use HB and H. Some H are so hard they hardly make a mark.
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    And here are two stages of the drawing. We start with marking the top and bottom most points. I then tried to find the corner points, all the time returning to my mark after every stroke to see if it's correct. I then gradually start adding more detail, going from bigger shapes to smaller ones.
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    After the big shapes and shadow shapes look good, it's time to put in a flat value. This helps you see problems and errors in your drawing, so before you move on you fix all those. That's where I'm at now.
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    I'm taking one photo per day of this now, so in the end you'll get a nifty animation to look at!

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  30. #54
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    Fascinating... I'm looking forward to seeing the progress.

    Thanks for the help!

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  31. #55
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    Wonderfull stuff Serpian,
    I'm studying with Jonathan Hardesty now, doing Bargues so I know what you've been through

    If you have a second, how would you characterize the difference
    in figure construction between what you have been doing and what you learned about the Russian method?

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  32. #56
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    Hmmm....charcoal.......a beautiful beast I've not the nerve to try and tame.

    GUTS POSE! When I'm ready, I will try.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
    -John Huston, Director
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  33. #57
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    Craig - We start the figure by marking five points vertically with equal distances, that is, we mark the top and bottom of where on the paper we want the figure, then divide that distance into two, then those distances into two. We then find a suitable vertical line in the figure, from the highest point to the lowest if possible, sometimes I use the top of the head as the high point and the heel as the low point, even if the toes would be lower down. We use a plumb line, but only to check, we do not have it there permanently.

    We then find the vertical center point of the figure using a knitting needle or pencil/charcoal stick. This is usually around the pelvis area. We try to find a landmark as close to the middle of the figure as possible, then draw that on the paper. It can be an angle, a wedging of muscles, what have you. We put this landmark as far off the vertical as needed, because it will not always be dead on your imagined plumb line. We then find landmarks for the 1/4 and 3/4 points, and build the figure from there.

    We measure only to correct what we have already drawn, not to find anything new. We use only comparative measurements inside the figure, we do not transfer measurements from the figure to the drawing, as it will not be sight-size. You could for example compare the length of the lower leg to the length of the torso, or the width of the hip to that of the shoulders. You then see if you're drawing has the same relationships.

    We continue this way until we have a fairy detailed and correct line drawing, then we start to draw in the shadow shapes, and when they are correct, we fill in a flat value in them. In the charcoal long poses, it might take a couple of days or more before you even get to this stage. The Russian way, however, is to quickly, and without measuring, put down a not very detailed line drawing, and then start finding the forms by drawing the shadows. Whereas we in the atelier method fill in shadows into safely drawn shadow shapes, like paint like numbers, only with two values instead of many colours, the russian way is a bit more haphazard and a lot more intuitive.

    In the Repin Academy, they do loads and loads of anatomy. This is crucial to the way they draw the figure, as they use a lot of this knowledge to make a pretty stylized drawing with exaggerated anatomy, rather than a copy of the model. With the Atelier way it's pretty easy to get a nice result with good proportions. With the Russian method it's a lot harder to really make a believable figure without the extensive knowledge of anatomy, but with it, i think you learn more about the human body than you do drawing in the Atelier method.

    Agrh.... Sorry if that was a bit long-winded, my explaining skilz don't seem to be on top today. Anyway, I have some pictures of the cast in progress as well as my current charcoal long pose. The first picture of the figure drawing illustrates how far we really take it before doing any shadows at all.

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    Looking good Serpian! I can't wait to see the cast drawing finished. The one critique I would make about the cast drawing is that the nostrils look like they could be lowered a little bit when compared to the photo. Also the bottom edge of the cast is slightly exaggerated on your drawing and could be straightened out a bit. Of course that is just me - I can't tell because I'm not there. The photo you took could be from a slightly different angle or height than from your eye level. It looks very accurate though. Good work!

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  36. #59
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    This thread is incredible...thank you so much for taking the time to painstakingly describe your process. Definitely subscribing!

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  37. #60
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    My first cast is finished! Here are some pictures. I also have an animated GIF of the process, but I can't attach it! The attachment manager says the limit is 2,33 GB, and my file is nowhere that size. I'll see if i can figure it out... I'll write a bit more about the process tomorrow maybe, now I've got to go to bed. Trouble shooting BSODs can be tiresome...
    Name:  0221-cast1_01.jpg
Views: 3508
Size:  120.7 KB
    Name:  0221-cast1_02.jpg
Views: 3479
Size:  87.7 KB
    Name:  0221-cast1_03.jpg
Views: 3484
Size:  84.4 KB

    And this is how far I'm on my long pose. There's still five days left, so if you want to point something out, now's the time!
    Name:  0221-figure.jpg
Views: 3554
Size:  80.6 KB

    Here's a three hour pose. We will continue this one later with three more hours.
    Name:  0221-figure2.jpg
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    And a 3x3h portrait
    Name:  0221-portrait.jpg
Views: 3470
Size:  143.1 KB

    Thank you everyone for your kind comments!

    EDIT: okay, here's the GIF, but it's tiny-tiny.
    Name:  cast_tiny.gif
Views: 3519
Size:  1.14 MB

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