Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    A thread about self-taught vs. school/degree

    Hi, I'm a self taught pro level digital painter/illustrator for about 6 years now, but for my own reasons I've just done it for myself and I haven't wanted to make it my career, but I'm planning on changing that now. I've fallen on some hard times due to medical problems which have prevented me from continuing my previous form of work, and my computer/tablet are dead thanks to letting a family member use them(let that be a warning to be careful who you let touch your work computer) and now years of work/everything I could use for a portfolio are now gone.

    Ok I'm not asking for money from you, but from a family member that has said before that she'd help me financially should I need it, and she will, but here's the problem some others here have faced I'm sure: She believes that It's impossible to get a job, freelance or full-time without a degree. I need your help to make the argument that it's the work that matters. I know the logic is sound, I've been lurking here and other industry sites since I started painting after changing from persuing computer animation.

    Any help would be great, but I'd like to ask than unless they have links to articles/ect from pros about this subject, that anyone not working in the field not post their oppinions on the subject, cause parroting things that others have said wont help.

    p.s. I know a degree would be nice, but is not necessary and going to school for basic illustration would be redundant and a waste of time and resourses for me right now.


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brazil & Texas
    Posts
    2,177
    Thanks
    151
    Thanked 398 Times in 254 Posts
    It's really hard to say in your specific situation whether continuing on your own would be best, or if going to the right school for you will actually be worth it, without seeing any of your work.

    I say post your work, you've got to have it somewhere, and if not, make up some more and show everyone.

    If you're well beyond what they teach you in art school, it still might be a good idea to attend something at your level, to really show how serious you are, and how much better you can get.
    Last edited by IanE; August 23rd, 2008 at 04:33 PM.
    Only the heart intrinsically noble can succeed...
    Check out My Sketchbook: Leave critiques, encouragement, and good jokes within.

    www.enmls.com

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    39.7,-86.1
    Posts
    1,217
    Thanks
    447
    Thanked 408 Times in 256 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by AyeEssDeeEff View Post
    I've fallen on some hard times due to medical problems which have prevented me from continuing my previous form of work, and my computer/tablet are dead thanks to letting a family member use them(let that be a warning to be careful who you let touch your work computer) and now years of work/everything I could use for a portfolio are now gone.
    Can you be specific how? There are ways to get the data back, even from ones that are badly damaged. If you could tell what the computer problem is, I am sure that me or others can help you find a way to get your stuff back.

    As for getting an art degree, it depends on what you want to do. Most art schools are very lacking, and if you are looking to improve your skills, I think it is best to do it on your own. Most art directors are not interested in a degree, but in quality of your work. But if you are looking to get into graphic design, animation, or anything that involve lot of planning and computer work, a degree is a must. Hope that helps.
    -Mike Cross


    Sculpting Thread|My Website| DeviantArt |My Blog
    -Also on FB and Twitter

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    480
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 30 Times in 26 Posts
    If you have the skills that you seem to imply you do (Not trying to casting doubt or anything), the loss of your data, while painful, isn't the end of the world. Simply pick up your pencil, or tablet or whatever and take a couple of weeks to work on one or two really fantastic and polished pieces and you're set to go.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    sf
    Posts
    2,069
    Thanks
    485
    Thanked 1,607 Times in 291 Posts
    wait, what? if you are a professional level artist you can just make more work foir your portfolio...unless for some strange reason you are only able to produce artwork on a computer...regardless, where there is a will, there is a way. do odd jobs and save up enough money to buy a new rig, or work traditionally for a little while.

    you do not need a degree. all you need is the will and the work ethic. however, some schooling doesnt hurt either. but it all depends. its hard to judge without seeing your work.

    good luck,


    -c36

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    2,867
    Thanks
    1,131
    Thanked 1,406 Times in 562 Posts
    It's like coro said dude, where theres a will theres a way. Maybe you'll need to go to school, get loans, it's easy. talk to the schools, they'll help you get loans, they want you in their school. Every great journey starts with a footstep.
    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
    --- Frank Herbert, Dune - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

    Check out my Sketchbook! Critique and Criticism welcomed.

    or my Artstation

    Or my stream on Twitch! http://www.twitch.tv/wwsketch

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philly PA
    Posts
    3,389
    Thanks
    108
    Thanked 1,478 Times in 470 Posts
    She believes that It's impossible to get a job, freelance or full-time without a degree
    it's not. absolutely end of story. A degree does not equal pro level work and pro level work does not equal a degree. I've never been asked about mine, which is good because I don't have one

    That's not to say schooling isn't worthwhile, but it's not a necessity and some schools are more worthwhile than others. The end result is what matters.
    "Every little step considered one at a time is not terribly daunting" - Ethan Coen

    New books and process DVD available NOW!

    www.dvpalumbo.com

    Quickie blog (nudity)

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    904
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 43 Times in 31 Posts
    Art is definitely one of those fields where a piece of paper saying you have a doctorate in painting doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is the level of work you can actually produce, your consistency, and your professionalism about it.

    That being said, if you feel schooling is the route you need to go to get to the next level, do so, find one that fits your needs the best and research the hell out of it. Self taught definitely isn't a hindrance though, every artist needs to learn at some point how to learn on their own anyways, or else we would never improve after that first few years of formal education finishes.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Big Easy
    Posts
    1,865
    Thanks
    625
    Thanked 700 Times in 367 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by AyeEssDeeEff View Post
    Hi, I'm a self taught pro level digital painter/illustrator for about 6 years now, but for my own reasons I've just done it for myself and I haven't wanted to make it my career, but I'm planning on changing that now. I've fallen on some hard times due to medical problems which have prevented me from continuing my previous form of work, and my computer/tablet are dead thanks to letting a family member use them(let that be a warning to be careful who you let touch your work computer) and now years of work/everything I could use for a portfolio are now gone.

    Ok I'm not asking for money from you, but from a family member that has said before that she'd help me financially should I need it, and she will, but here's the problem some others here have faced I'm sure: She believes that It's impossible to get a job, freelance or full-time without a degree. I need your help to make the argument that it's the work that matters. I know the logic is sound, I've been lurking here and other industry sites since I started painting after changing from persuing computer animation.

    Any help would be great, but I'd like to ask than unless they have links to articles/ect from pros about this subject, that anyone not working in the field not post their oppinions on the subject, cause parroting things that others have said wont help.

    p.s. I know a degree would be nice, but is not necessary and going to school for basic illustration would be redundant and a waste of time and resourses for me right now.
    Wait; what exactly counts as a pro level digital painter/illustrator? Do you have any examples of your work to show? Often times "self taught" is used in place of "untrained." As for "pro level:" please prove it. So far you haven't shown us anything and to me it sounds more like you are full of yourself than anything else.

    As for the degree; no, it isn't neccesary. However, actually showing your art is, and if your art sucks then I suggest you take some classes. Not for the diploma but for the training.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Thanks for your replies(some of you, at least)

    I will say that saying my comp is dead and some medical issues in my previous post isn't rendering the actual gravity of the situation, but I don't really feel like going all livejournal about those kind of things here.

    My statement of being pro-level, while not untrue, was made in hopes that newbies would not try to school me in things I learned long ago. I didnt say these things to try to show off, if I wanted to do that I would have started posting art years ago.

    It's really hard to say in your specific situation whether continuing on your own would be best, or if going to the right school for you will actually be worth it, without seeing any of your work.

    I say post your work, you've got to have it somewhere, and if not, make up some more and show everyone.

    If you're well beyond what they teach you in art school, it still might be a good idea to attend something at your level, to really show how serious you are, and how much better you can get.
    1) I was not looking for judgment/critique/advice on my skill level or artistic ability, or if I need school or not.

    2) I have no ability to make digital art(stuck using a weak macbook atm) or scan in traditional art, and I havent posted art online since the original version of this forum.

    3) I am not opposed to the idea of institutionalized education here, it's just that right now with all things considered it would redundant and a waste of time and resources at this time for me.
    It's really hard to say in your specific situation whether continuing on your own would be best, or if going to the right school for you will actually be worth it, without seeing any of your work.

    Can you be specific how? There are ways to get the data back, even from ones that are badly damaged. If you could tell what the computer problem is, I am sure that me or others can help you find a way to get your stuff back.
    persons took my computer and played games on it in the hottest/least cool room in the house in a heatwave until parts overheated and blew up.

    If you have the skills that you seem to imply you do (Not trying to casting doubt or anything), the loss of your data, while painful, isn't the end of the world. Simply pick up your pencil, or tablet or whatever and take a couple of weeks to work on one or two really fantastic and polished pieces and you're set to go.
    I am not the kind of person who asks for help, especially financial, but this is important to me, which is why I'm posting this after not posting at all since the early days of this forum.

    wait, what? if you are a professional level artist you can just make more work foir your portfolio...unless for some strange reason you are only able to produce artwork on a computer...regardless, where there is a will, there is a way. do odd jobs and save up enough money to buy a new rig, or work traditionally for a little while.

    you do not need a degree. all you need is the will and the work ethic. however, some schooling doesnt hurt either. but it all depends. its hard to judge without seeing your work.

    good luck,


    -c36
    Thank you for taking the time to reply, coro.

    abit of personal history:

    I've always had an interest in art/creating/telling stories since I can remember, but never really decided on a path until I saw reboot/pixars early films and decided to go into computer animation. I went to the only highschool in my city that taught it, but they mostly only taught how to use it, so I had to teach myself all the artistic aspects of it, like fundimentals/composition ect..., but after awhile I grew tired of the process despite liking the end results. After finding and browsing deviantart(shut up it was like back in 2000 or sometime long ago) I discovered mullins/mattepainting and digital painting sites like sijun/eatpoo/concept and design/cgtalk. Digital painting had the results I liked but with a process I didnt hate, so I changed for computer animation to painting, and it didn't take long to get results because I already had the other visual art chops, I just needed to teach myself paint process.

    Also, I've never had any real interest in natural media, so I've never touched it since middleschool art classes, not because I think it's inferior, it's just not my flavor.

    2) I would not be posting this if I didnt feel it's important. I have a family member who has pledged to help me, it's just that I need help to convince them that I know what's best for me in this case.

    3) thanks. I'm just looking for someone like you to say something about working without a degree because you're in the biz and I'm not.

    It's like coro said dude, where theres a will theres a way. Maybe you'll need to go to school, get loans, it's easy. talk to the schools, they'll help you get loans, they want you in their school. Every great journey starts with a footstep.
    My journey started a long time ago, it's just hit a serious pothole.

    it's not. absolutely end of story. A degree does not equal pro level work and pro level work does not equal a degree. I've never been asked about mine, which is good because I don't have one

    That's not to say schooling isn't worthwhile, but it's not a necessity and some schools are more worthwhile than others. The end result is what matters.
    Exactly. Even with a sister that's a high school dropout who works in the film business and has no formal training it's still hard to convince some people.

    Wait; what exactly counts as a pro level digital painter/illustrator? Do you have any examples of your work to show? Often times "self taught" is used in place of "untrained." As for "pro level:" please prove it. So far you haven't shown us anything and to me it sounds more like you are full of yourself than anything else.

    As for the degree; no, it isn't neccesary. However, actually showing your art is, and if your art sucks then I suggest you take some classes. Not for the diploma but for the training.
    I'm not sure if I should reply to this cause it's a really fucking stupid reply, and I don't want to upset the top brass by being an uppity new guy to someone who's been here for a while, but I will anyways.

    What defines a pro? Not sucking, not being a fucking dumbass, thinking for themselves rather than letting others do the thinking for them.

    No I don't have examples, read the thread to learn why.

    Yes I am untrained because I am self taught, what's your point? You gonna imply that the self taughts at the top of the forum and all the pros who say they mostly taught themselves because their teachers/schools werent good enough are abunch of untrained hacks?

    I don't care if you don't believe me or if you think I'm full of myself. I've been reading these forums for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen an intelligent comment posted by you that wasn't a quote from someone who knew what they were talking about.

    Thank you for your time, and to quote Ben "roundeye" Henry

    "You only need to go to artschool if you suck"

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    2,867
    Thanks
    1,131
    Thanked 1,406 Times in 562 Posts
    If i know the internet (and i do). Then I predict this thread to become more interesting from this point forward...i'll be watching it.
    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
    --- Frank Herbert, Dune - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

    Check out my Sketchbook! Critique and Criticism welcomed.

    or my Artstation

    Or my stream on Twitch! http://www.twitch.tv/wwsketch

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    2,256
    Thanks
    304
    Thanked 525 Times in 365 Posts
    Woohoo big wall of text! With a lot of nicely asymmetrically aligned Quotes in it! Also, nice use of numbers to prove your points, and such intricancy and elegance without the use of further effects like bold,itallic text or smilies, well done!

    I must say your use of internet-forums sure is on a pro-level.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    109
    Thanks
    52
    Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts
    in my short time on these forums I have come to the conclusion that nobody is really looking for advice in these threads (also guilty of this in the past). You already know what the answer is, just go for it.
    A: Because everybody knows that white is the default race.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin , Germany
    Posts
    1,819
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 123 Times in 53 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtZealot View Post
    If i know the internet (and i do). Then I predict this thread to become more interesting from this point forward...
    It is like one of those openers to a big movie trailer..."In a small peacful town...where CA lived in harmony with art...where SUDDENLY !" and we are exactly at the position of the exclamation mark
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae
    "Art is the physical result of your soul battling with your intellect to the death...with a sharp pencil..."
    THE AUSTRIAN SKETCHLORDS
    Baron Carnifex
    Duke Corky

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Sacramento and Los Angeles
    Posts
    988
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 165 Times in 61 Posts
    its just too easy...

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Queens, NY
    Posts
    403
    Thanks
    170
    Thanked 40 Times in 30 Posts
    AyeEssDeeEff, why don't you just post some art? People are not trying to give you a critique exactly, they just can't give you any clear career advice unless they see where you are art-wise. ...and everyone here is really willing to help, don't bite the hand that can feed you. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    197
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 52 Times in 27 Posts
    What defines a pro? Not sucking, not being a fucking dumbass, thinking for themselves rather than letting others do the thinking for them.
    pro means that it's your profession, that you earn money by doing what you do. also, try hooking up your harddisk to another computer. there's a good chance the data on there is still there. overheating is mainly affecting your processor and not your drives. good luck with that.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    325
    Thanks
    46
    Thanked 200 Times in 98 Posts
    You already got the answer to your main question -- you don't need a degree if your work is good enough. Anyone who appears to be giving you attitude is probably just trying to help you potentially avoid the scenario where you go in debt to a family member and then discover your work isn't good enough to make a living.

    Have you tried removing your hard drive from the old computer and putting it in another computer? It's quite possible for all the data to be intact, even if other parts of the old computer exploded(!). Even if that doesn't work, the data is probably recoverable by the more arcane and expensive methods practiced by data recovery companies. And if you have a lot of good work on there, it's worth trying to save (I'd at least try to keep the hard drive for later, even if you can't afford recovery now).

    Edit: Heh, yeah. Jinx.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Cape Town South Africa
    Posts
    1,679
    Thanks
    1,542
    Thanked 688 Times in 303 Posts
    Correct me if I am wrong but AyeEssDeeEff's question was not weather it was possible to get work in the industry without a degree, but rather how to convince 'someone' that you can. The only way to do this is to show this 'benefactor' examples of people who have made it without formal training, and if you are at the level you say you are, which hopefully should be somewhere close to the pro's you are using as examples she can't not agree that it is possible.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Austin TX
    Posts
    11,707
    Thanks
    2,091
    Thanked 11,435 Times in 2,935 Posts
    the degree doesnt mean jack unless you want to work in another country or teach at a university. outside that...the degree is pointless. education is not...education is required...but not the degree.

  22. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Raleigh
    Posts
    1,215
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 165 Times in 66 Posts
    The benefit to art school is not the piece of paper at the end, its the four years of creating art.

    So... do it. Create some art and apply to companies. Show your family member that it can be done by doing it.

  23. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles CA
    Posts
    2,395
    Thanks
    199
    Thanked 487 Times in 221 Posts
    yeah dude, take the harddrive out of the machine, take it to a shop and see if they can help you recover the data, or call around, talk to people, you can ALWAYS find someone who has a friend who is a Tech. someone who can fix anything computer related.
    also, i dont see what the hold up is. why the delay?
    if i lost all my work, i would immediately feel FREE!!
    i would buy a sketchbook and start laying down NEW ideas! i've had this idea for a video game i want to create on the back burner for about 8 years now. tomorow, if i lost all my work, i would say FUCK IT and jump on that video game. i would set myself a goal, 3 characters, 3 environments, 3 vehicles, 3 creatures, etc.
    in 2 weeks i would have at the very least, a dozen finished pieces to show.
    my problem is different than yours in that, i dont do illustration for a living.
    i never have. i've never even tried.
    im a motion graphics artist who draws on the side for fun. but i've always wanted to get better with my illustration, and if i lost all my work tomorow, or today even, i would take it as a sign to UPDATE my portfolio, and in this case, pursue concept art as a line of work for the first time in my life.

    last year my grandfather and my mother died, i shattered my right ankle skateboarding, totaled my car, moved 4 times, had to buy a new car so i could get to work every day, and i made it thorugh all this with a smile on my face.
    wanna know why?
    because i made the conscious decision to be happy, to not let all the bullshit get me down, to see the good in every situation.
    my mom doesn't have to worry about her drug addiction anymore, my grandfather doesn't have to worry about his bad heart anymore, my totaled car is still a pain in my ass but it did its job for the time i needed it to, i broke my ankle, and because of that i would never have met my girlfriend, etc
    i wake up every fucking morning and look at my life, and im thankfull for what i have.
    losing all my work would only make me stronger, happier, because i know that creating a new portfolio from nothing would only make my portfolio that much stronger, current, fresh, and when you tell a potential employer that "yeah, i lost all my work, these samples were all done in the last 2 weeks" and the work is good? they'll shit themselves. they'll be totally impressed.

    i just think you need to get out of your funk.
    shake it off, roll up your sleeves and start over.
    life throws you a curve ball sometimes and it whizzes by you because you weren't prepared (backing up your hard-drive)
    you gotta just get up, walk over to the fence, pick the ball up and throw it back to the pitcher and say "ok, im ready this time. just TRY and throw me that same curve ball"

    take this as an opportunity to update your portfolio.
    clear your head of the bullshit.

  24. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to TheDirtSyndicate For This Useful Post:


  25. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,475
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts

    An idea

    Instead of looking for some irrefutable logic that will convince her...why not look for evidence? There are many threads on this website on just such a subject that you can search for. You could ask art directors to spare 5 min of their time to tel her that this is indeed the case(over the phone I imagine).

    You could show her the websites of artists who work in the same field. The portfolio content will far outweigh the degrees listed and she might be convinced that way. This would serve a dual purpose in proving the portfolio case and comparing your level of work to the industry standard.

    That being said, I still haven't convinced my parents that it is the case.
    [][][][] DRAW EVERYDAY [][][][]>

  26. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles CA
    Posts
    2,395
    Thanks
    199
    Thanked 487 Times in 221 Posts

  27. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    39.7,-86.1
    Posts
    1,217
    Thanks
    447
    Thanked 408 Times in 256 Posts
    Agreed with Complete2. Good chance that your hard drive is still good...just get a new computer and put the hard drive in it. Hell, you can get computer off ebay that can handle digital painting just fine for about $200.
    -Mike Cross


    Sculpting Thread|My Website| DeviantArt |My Blog
    -Also on FB and Twitter

  28. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Austin TX
    Posts
    11,707
    Thanks
    2,091
    Thanked 11,435 Times in 2,935 Posts

  29. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    667
    Thanks
    181
    Thanked 65 Times in 39 Posts
    Well, I graduated my art school with a degree last april, and you can let your your family member know that I said it's definitely not a golden ticket to being offered jobs. I was never naive enough to think it was (although some people I went to school with did)
    ...And... I can sort of empathize with you. I deal with aquaintances almost on a daily basis who repeatedly question why I continue to attend life-drawing or work on illustrations when I already have my bachelor of applied arts.

    Many of my friends who graduated with me do not have 'art jobs'... lots of them are currently looking for joe-job work while their get their portfolios up to snuff.

    All employers I've interacted with have not asked for resumes, and the only one i met in person with a resume in my hand only took it breifly to copy down my contact info into their file before handing it back to me. However they did keep my 'portfolio leave-behind' That sorta proves what I've been hearing for years that resumes and degrees don't exactly matter. It's the work in the portfolio that counts -- oh and your charisma and attitude if you're being interviewed obviously.

    If you want further proof to show her you can look up companies that have to deal with alot of artists and therefore have 'submission guidelines'. They usually only ask for samples or website link to the work... I haven't read a single one that's said "and attach a word document of your resume or scan of your degree" ... or show her the job postings on game sites like blizzard? They don't ask for bachelors or masters degrees.

Similar Threads

  1. Animator and Character Designer: Do I need a degree or skill( Self taught )?
    By Efesyric in forum Education & Schools for Artists
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May 24th, 2012, 02:23 PM
  2. SELF TAUGHT versus ART SCHOOL
    By IILooney in forum Art Discussions
    Replies: 89
    Last Post: July 11th, 2011, 10:40 PM
  3. Art School after B.S. Degree
    By DHan in forum Education & Schools for Artists
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: November 10th, 2010, 03:51 AM
  4. SketchBook: Art School Taught Me Nothing - Intermittent Sketchbook
    By gpalmer in forum Sketchbooks
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: June 28th, 2010, 03:47 PM
  5. Art: Some School Work That Taught Me a Lot
    By StreetBehemoth in forum Finished Art
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: September 1st, 2009, 06:29 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Designed by The Coldest Water, we build the coldest best water bottles, ice packs and best pillows.