Art: The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

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  1. #1
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    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    These are a few
    of the scraps
    from weekly
    sessions with
    life models
    that survived
    the trash and
    other means of
    disappearance.

    Some are demos
    from imagination
    and other are
    quick sketches
    from life.

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    Let me know
    if these are
    helpful and I
    will post more


    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by mentler; October 1st, 2008 at 10:27 AM.
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  4. #2
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    Indeed, they are helpful. Thank You Very Much!

    I SWEAR ON THE GRAVES OF ALL THE TALENTED FILIPINO ARTISTS WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE ME, THE FILIPINO ART LEGACY WILL CONTINUE!



    MY DAY JOB http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=136204

    MY ANGRY SKETCHBOOKhttp://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...129015&page=13
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    o yeah helpful as HELL scares ppl !

    I wish I can join some of ur workshops but sadly I'm outside the US.

    and keep them coming, such a pleasurable info-entertainment !

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    More Classroom Demos

    Here Are A
    Few More
    I Picked Up
    Off The Floor.

    I You Want
    To See Them
    I Shoot Em'
    And Post Em'.

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons



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    yes mentler they are definetely helpful..since you know so much about the construction of the figure..
    does your female bodies are that way or do you idealize?? hehe..also i would love to see more male bodies...where the anatomy is more obvious than females

    my new site, is crazy stuff but is my own space, I can say whatever!! hehe:
    http://theallejo05.spaces.live.com/?_c02_owner=1
    One of the art schools I respect the most:
    http://www.mimsstudios.com/philosophy.htm
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    Life Lessons Cont.

    Here is a study
    done from life
    in my Tuesday
    head sessions

    I will post these
    here as well as
    the figures

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons


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    thanks for sharing Mentler, these are really helfull for someone who cant access art school or life drawing with a teacher.

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    I notice you draw a 'cross-hair' type thing on some of your full body studies. Does this help you with body proportions?

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    Life Lessons Update

    A Couple of
    More From
    The Tuesday
    Faces & Features
    Sessions

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons


    Last edited by mentler; October 22nd, 2008 at 09:33 AM.
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    Thanks Mr.mentler, Life Lessons helpful of course

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    Portrait Demo

    Here Are
    A Couple
    Of New
    Class Demos

    I Try To
    Emphasis
    Starting With
    Different
    Materials And
    Methods And
    To Avoid
    Becoming A
    Victim Of Any
    One Procedure

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons


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    Thanks The Bone Doctors Life Lessons

    These post are very helpful!



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    I don't want to sound rude or anything, I just want to point out that I see some issues with perspective and proportion in your works. While it's up to you to change (and emphasize) certain parts of the body by playing with proportions there are rules which are not to be broken. Take the last portrait for example. The sitter's left eye sits too low to be drawn in correct perspective. Also the anatomy of the hand seems wrong. Lastly it is clearly visible that you changed the proportions of the face quite a lot, it would be interesting to see you try to really nail the proportions and the likeness of the sitter. You could also mind your values a bit more, since they don't seem to follow a working system at the moment. Again, I don't want to sound rude, just some thoughts. Hope it helps.

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    I think the poster has a point. I admire you Dr. Bones. A hell of a lot, actually. But your free-for-all attitude contradicts your love of factual anatomy. How do you reconcile opposite outlooks? How can one be flippant about facts and love them all the same? I have docked as much time studying the figure. But for me, there is an end game: making the model look as articulate, clear and beautiful as possible. I want to stress, clear, above all. I look sometimes at the work you post here and wonder what your direction is. If not didactic, then? Again, the study, your dedication is absolutely brilliant. But when you are not striving for clarity, what are you looking to present? (PS. The no rules thing is very Duchamp and has been over, at least in the art trenches, for many decades. We are all striving for purpose instead. This is why I ask. )

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    Funny ava mentler! looks like model goes not very far from apes!

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    Funny ava mentler! looks like model goes not very far from apes!

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    What the rules are entirely depends upon what game you're playing.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
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    Point Counterpoint

    Graydon

    Your Point is
    Well Made
    and Well Taken

    I as You
    Can Tell
    am a Firm
    Believer in
    Skill Sets an
    the Ability to
    be Able to
    Express Oneself
    in Whatever
    Manner Seems
    Appropriate to
    That Individual

    I Really Don't
    Feel That Gaining
    the Skill Levels
    Necessary Follows
    the Same Path
    for Everyone

    As Far as
    "Art For Art's Sake"
    or ''l'art pour l'art''
    is Concerned
    I Don't Really
    Believe that Art
    has to Serve a
    Moral or Didactic
    Function to
    Qualify as Art

    There is for
    me Two Factors
    at Work

    The Mystery
    Of The Universe
    And The Mystery
    Of Being

    This Translates to
    Outer and Inner
    Observation

    When I am Dead,
    Let it be Said of Me:
    "He Belonged to no
    School, no Church,
    to no Institution,
    to no Academy,
    least of all to any
    Regime except the
    Regime of Liberty."

    _ Gustave Courbet

    Do I think that
    Art Education
    for the Past
    several decades
    has been pretty
    lame? LOL

    I think however
    that most "Ateliers"
    provide a very narrow
    approach to the
    problem and in
    many cases take
    the student down
    a path from which
    there is only one
    destination

    There seems to
    be this myth that
    emotion and
    expression will
    magically appear
    at some later date
    after you have
    stayed the course

    I have many students
    who have stayed far
    to long on this program.
    A couple that remember
    you from Lack's


    In teaching, we neglect to
    sponsor passion as a discipline.
    The only discipline we teach is
    that of the deadly diagram
    supposedly to be fertilized later
    by personal experience.

    Later is to late."

    _Rico Lebrun

    Expression and
    emotion, which
    are obviously
    part of the same
    thing, have to
    be encouraged
    as well as the
    technical and
    procedural aspects
    of what we do

    I could go into
    Classicists vs.
    Romanticists
    but of course
    that serves no
    purpose

    The fact remains
    that most,
    if not all artist's
    of merit have had
    a good deal of
    each running
    through their veins

    I appreciate your
    comments and
    will temper my
    views to not dampen
    the enthusiasm of
    the disciples of
    accuracy

    However
    one can believe
    strongly in one's
    approach without
    having to think
    that everything
    else is wrong

    I try to teach in
    a manner that
    leaves a little
    room to venture
    off the path but
    then I try to help
    them find there
    way back

    I also try to break
    down stylistic
    prejudices that
    get in the way of
    appreciating art

    Thanks again for
    your comments
    it was great over
    coffee this morning

    All the best and
    keep creating

    Elwell

    Another very
    good point

    My concern is
    with advocating that
    there is a
    "Right" way
    to create art
    and disparage
    everything that
    does not conform
    to their way of
    thinking.

    Here is another
    quick demo
    from my Tuesday
    portrait sessions



    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons






    Last edited by mentler; October 23rd, 2008 at 02:05 PM.
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  29. #20
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    woohhaaaa thats awesomee

    may i ask what u use to color your pieces?

    looks stunning !

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    Portrait Demo

    Here is
    the latest
    little head
    demo from
    SoFA's Tuesday
    afternoon group

    It terms of color
    I use a variety of
    materials and
    try not to get
    into to much
    of a procedure mode

    This last one was
    done primarily with
    a Payne's Gray nu-pastel

    I try to have a variety
    of material available
    and often mix dry
    and wet media

    I just try to
    get into the
    drawing and
    not over think it

    I aim more for
    attitude and
    expression than I do
    accuracy or realism

    The Bone Doctors Life Lessons


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    For me, professing a successful approach does not mean that one dismisses everything else. That is, its not a false dichotomy. One can be correct, partially wrong or really wrong.

    I find emotion, however, impossible to teach. I think perception is a better lesson. I think that practice allows the student to become very sensitive to nature and to her own outlook. The end game can be polished, painterly or a combination.

    The worse thing a student can do, in my opinion, is imitate the style of his master without reason. He should in fact understand the why behind what he is doing. Likely, those who go to ateliers are impressed by the results. I am.
    Is there a common look to many? Sure. I can tell who studied with whom.
    But I see this as just the beginning. These artists are young and have yet to evolve into distinct personalities. Some may never. (This is no different from modernism. Art for London to LA looks very similar today) It's just what level do we want to common denominator to be?

    The only antidote I know is to stick to the facts. This is all I think one can teach. I greatly appreciate your effectors, Dr. Bones, and I am often in awe of your dedication. Where we differ is on the one issue of clarity. For your own work, no problem. You know your stuff inside and out. For students, however, I would ask them to be as clear and complete as possible. When you don't model a hand, no big deal; you'll do it tomorrow. When they don't, it betrays a lack of understanding.

    As for expression comprises, this is the domain of philosophy. Me, my level ends at my armchair. Do I believe Hegel or Plato, Kant or Hume? Is truth in the overarching or the specific? Ruskin certainly thought the latter; Raphael the former. For me, self expression is a tautology. And I am not overly concerned with being modern. What ever I do I was born in the 20th century and will die in the 21st. I will either be perceived as in style or not, whatever the time, looking forward or back, after I am gone.

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    Emotion

    Graydon

    I am not sure
    that emotion
    can be taught
    or even nurtured,
    but I am sure
    that it can be
    suppressed and
    discouraged

    You point out
    that many young
    painters have not
    developed their individual personalities

    "These artists are young and
    have yet to evolve into
    distinct personalities.
    Some may never."

    I feel that in some cases
    these people are simply
    viewed as Collateral Damage

    I see distinct schools
    within the Atelier
    movement and find it
    pretty easy to spot the
    Lackey's, Sethite's and
    Nerdster's but I think the
    layman probably can't
    tell one from the other

    As for teaching Perception
    I am in total agreement
    if you are including
    all the senses and
    not just observation
    in a visual sense

    We know things
    are round because
    we have walked
    around them and
    felt them and we
    should therefore
    not have to rely
    on how they appear
    from observation
    in order to create
    the illusion of a
    spherical form

    I read an article
    in American Artist
    Drawing recently
    by Jon deMartin
    that really points
    up a different in
    approach which I
    think puts one
    on one path or
    the other

    Here is the web address
    if you wish to read the
    whole article but I
    have included the part
    which I think illustrates
    the point where
    viewpoints may differ

    http://www.myamericanartist.com/2008...ng-basics.html

    Quoting deMartin
    "First establish the height of the cube by making horizontal marks at the top and bottom. Lightly draw in the outside shape relating to the height, then estimate the cube’s width. Focus on four points: the top, bottom, left, and right extremities that contain the outside shape. Compare them to one another using horizontal and vertical lines. Keep estimating the outside shape before drawing the interior planes. The same principle would apply for drawing a head; you wouldn’t start drawing the features before the outside shape. The danger of drawing the parts before the whole is that it decreases the odds of getting the main proportions accurate.

    Now add the interior planes to better visualize the whole—the outside shape—in relation to the parts—the interior planes. Keep the early stages as simple as possible so it’s easier to make corrections. Revise the drawing where needed. Addressing the simple visual appearance of the subject before considering the interior parts is a principle that you can apply to any kind of drawing—always think of the whole first and then the parts. If the cube’s outside shape looks correct and the interior planes appear to fit, you’re ready for the next step."

    This approach assumes
    that getting the outside
    shape exact/accurate
    will create the correct
    form once the interior
    lines are added

    The emphasis here
    is obviously on shape
    and line and not form.
    We are relying on the
    outline as our guide

    This of course requires
    duplication of the
    objects outline which
    naturally requires an object

    Of course it is possible
    to get great results
    from this method
    but it always depends
    on the model and the
    lighting

    This is where I part
    ways with drawing
    from observation
    in its purest sense

    I believe that the
    draughtsman has
    to think in terms of
    masses and not shapes

    I think we have to
    look past the lines to see;
    planes meeting planes;
    colors meeting colors;
    values meeting values;
    basic geometric form units
    and there orientation and
    rotation in space

    My approach to the cube would first be to see it as a Mass
    I would then find the point where the front planes
    meet and establish the height line.
    Next I would find the width or front plane.
    Then the depth plane.
    (the depth plane always has the most acute angle)
    Lastly I would add the top or bottom
    plane as the case may be.
    I am always thinking in terms of mass i.e.
    three dimensions (the HWD or Height, Width and Depth)

    If you think shape you
    end up with a shape
    and conversely if you
    think form you end up
    with form

    The bottom line is that
    working from life and
    observing nature should
    be given a great deal of
    attention, especially in the
    beginning of ones training,
    but until one can draw the
    figure in any position from
    imagination they don't have
    all the skill sets necessary to...

    "evolve into distinct personalities"

    The obvious problem is
    that the education
    available for artist's is
    lacking in general and
    every little bit helps

    The never ending discussion
    Book 7
    Chapter 51
    Page 77
    Paragraph 9



    Last edited by mentler; November 1st, 2008 at 09:53 PM.
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    Thanks Mentler for these post and discussion on art.The Bone Doctors Life Lessons


    I thought I would add a few quotes from Leonardo:
    (excerpt from Artist On Art)

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    Last edited by Slechtvalk; November 1st, 2008 at 01:42 PM.
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  38. #25
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    Don't Be A Mirror

    I love what Leo is saying here.

    Lack says in
    his little book that
    Leo says to draw
    from nature.

    This is the quote from
    Leo that is often used
    to connect him with
    the sight-size tradition

    "When you draw from nature, stand three times as far away as the object you are drawing." -Leonardo da Vinci

    Of course he
    did not understand
    at all what is
    being said here.

    Leo merely gives us
    an equation for getting
    the subject in approximate
    scale with the work at hand.
    He in no way indicates
    that this is a procedure
    to be followed for every
    part of the process.
    One only has to look at
    the rest of his notes to
    understand that he would
    never have worked in that
    manner.

    Another thing Lack
    advocated was to
    not working alone without
    supervision which of
    course goes to Leo's
    comment about not
    following one master
    and not trying to copy
    any artist.

    What Leo says
    is pretty clear.

    He says study
    science first.

    Learn about what
    you wish to draw
    or paint.

    "Then follow with
    practice based on that science."

    Draw what you know you see
    not what you think you see.

    And don't try to imitate another
    artist because you will never
    be more than a dim reflection.

    Leo knew that the mind
    was an important part
    of the game and that
    merely trying to mirror
    nature without understanding
    it was or little use in terms
    on learning to draw or paint.

    To that end Leo certainly
    would not have been a
    advocate of sight-size
    which leads the student
    into precisely into all of
    the dangers Leo warns us
    to avoid.

    I also think that sight-size
    has severe limitations and
    should be taught in moderation
    if at all.

    That pretty much leaves
    one with comparative
    measurement which
    is harder to teach and
    takes longer to learn
    to offers far more
    flexibility in the end.

    Of all the great paintings hanging
    in the museums of the world few if
    any were done using
    the sight-size method.

    The exception might be
    William M. Paxton
    (who may well have invented the method
    who taught the method to
    R.H. Ives Gammell who in
    turn taught to Lack et al.
    Paxton is not exactly a house
    hold name in the world
    of art and we really don't
    know if he used the method
    for his own work or only
    as a method of teaching

    This is an excellent article
    on the pro's and con's
    of the sight-size method

    http://www.atelierstockholm.se/index...ntid=64&lang=1

    This discussion is really not
    what this thread was intended
    for but it is probably valuable
    for students to understand the
    limitations that certain approaches
    have and the effect they may
    have on their success as an artist
    or their ability to accomplish
    what they wish to accomplish.


    Last edited by mentler; November 2nd, 2008 at 01:10 AM.
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  40. #26
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    Thanks for the wonderful inspiring images. Demo's like these where you can trace the artist's thought through the scaffolding are immensely valuable as well as quite beautiful. Anatomy and perspective I can pick up from a book; from work like you've posted here I learn how creatively and expressively the rules can be applied, or not. To paraphrase Nathan Goldstein; "UTILIZE anatomy, don't EULOGIZE it!"

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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    Most insightful discussion. I definitely found it valuable.

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    Smile

    What one needs in instruction are the tools to obviate future mannerisms. I don't think that Jon deMartin is advocating strictly a visual approach, but visual accuracy, achieved by relating extremities, is a skill needed by representational artists. On the other hand, to be naive about structure is a hindrance. This is why I advise students to sculpt.

    However, I am not talking about either one, but rather clarity. I imagine that one can loosely base ones drawing on the model and still be articulate. I mean where does the femur end and the tibia begin? If this is understood, it can be presented correctly, without obfuscation. When one is a student, I think its vital to be precise.

    Its interesting to quote past artists. But can we really know what they mean centuries later? after translation? It seems to me that its rather like quoting from the Bible and divining what Jesus really meant. At some point, its faith and we take our own stance. Whether or not Leonardo used sight-size has no bearing on its merits. It either works or not, or is beneficial to some degree. I see no evidence that sight-size is a hindrance.
    Is it complete? Absolutely not. But neither is an entirely conceptual approach. Both reason and observation are essential to drawing and painting well.

    (Dr. Bones, do you not have a regular keyboard? I think you have your font setting on Moses or Shakespeare. )

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  43. #29
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    Obviate

    I acknowledged that
    accuracy and observation
    are an important part
    of the education of
    the draughtsman.

    When you start talking
    about obviating i.e.
    eliminating personal
    mannerisms you are
    treading on hallowed
    ground!

    !tread lightly!

    Famous Mannerist artists, sculptors and architects include:

    Allori, Alessandro
    Ammanati, Bartolommeo
    Anguissola, Lucia
    Anguissola, Sofonisba
    Arcimboldo, Giuseppe
    Bandinelli, Baccio
    Bassano, Leandro
    Beccafumi, Domenico
    Bernini, Pietro
    Botticelli
    Gheyn, Jacques de
    Giambologna
    Giulio Romano (Giulio di Pietro de'Gianuzzi)
    Il Cerano (Giovanni Battista Crespi)
    Il Nosadella (Giovanni Francesco Bezzi)
    Il Pordenone (Giovanni Antonio de Sacchis)
    Leyden, Lucas van
    Ligorio, Pirro
    Machietti, Girolamo (di Francesco di Mariotto)
    Maderno, Stefano
    Bronzino, Agnolo di Cosimo
    Bruegel
    Buonarroti, Michelangelo
    Cambiaso, Luca
    Cranach, Lucas the Elder
    Carneo, Antonio
    Cattaneo, Danese
    Cellini, Benvenuto
    Cesari, Giuseppe (Cavaliere d'Arpino)
    Correggio
    Daniele da Volterra (Daniele Ricciarelli)
    Danti, Vincenzo
    dell'Abbate, Niccolò
    El Greco
    Scipione (il Gaetano)
    Rosso Fiorentino
    Pontormo (Jacopo Carucci)
    Primaticcio, Francesco
    Salviati, Francesco
    San Friano, Maso da (Tommaso Manzuoli)
    Sansovino, Jacopo
    Sarto, Andrea del
    Savoldo, Giovanni Girolamo
    Tintoretto (Jacopo Robusti)
    Titian
    Tosini, Michele (Michele di Ridolfo del Ghirlandaio)
    Tribolo, Niccolo
    Vasari, Giorgio
    Veronese, Paolo Caliari
    Vittoria, Alessandro
    Zuccaro, Federico
    Zuccaro, Taddeo
    Mariani, Camillo
    Massys, Quentin
    Mastelletta (Giovanni Andrea Donducci)
    Mochi, Francesco
    Moroni, Giovanni Battista
    Palladio, Andrea
    Palma Giovane
    Parmigianino (Girolamo Francesco Mazzola)
    Parodi, Filippo
    Perino del Vaga (Pietro Buonaccorsi)
    Pino, Marco (Marco da Siena)
    Polidoro da Caravaggio (Polidoro Caldara)
    Pulzone
    Raphael (Raffaello Sanzio)




    Last edited by mentler; November 3rd, 2008 at 05:19 AM.
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  45. #30
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    All of your threads are great, but this one is exceptional. It is good to hear you discussing theory as well as practise, and I admire your stance. I also tend to agree with you. Please keep posting your floor scraps, and please keep talking in your Moses/Shakespeaean font. I'm throwing you 5 bones on this thread.

    P.O.W.! - All the Comic Challenges you can handle

    donalfall's sketchbook - page 14 | donalfall.com | galwaypubscrawl.com | facebook | twitter |
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