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  1. #1
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    Finished, or not finished?

    So. I accidentally bumped into an issue I've had for a while in the middle of someone's post and decided to move the discourse over here where it is more appropriate and, hopefully, less offensive.

    What artwork is appropriate for the Finally Finished section?

    Countless times I've seen posts containing Manga artwork flamed out of the Finally Finished section. Even if it is fairly good, it must be top-guys-in-Korea level professional to escape a thorough verbal raping, if not gang bang.

    One minute I'll see a fairly OK concept moved to the critiques section, the next minute I'll see a pretty simple painting that isn't actually concept art left up and unaltered. It's as though if you label it concept art, it must be totally amazing or else. If you just say "hey, I painted these" then the quality can be significantly lower and no one will bat an eyelash. Unless it's manga, then you're fuckered, friend.

    The idea is, if something isn't to a finished level, it's booted out. This makes sense, and it is exactly what should happen. It keeps the forums full of inspiring work and makes users push themselves to a better level. When I first started coming here (not nearly as long ago as many of you), getting a painting into the Finally Finished section was practically a badge of honor. Every post in that section contained amazing artwork and no matter what, I left the section feeling inspired.

    I liked it like that because you had to be fucking good. If you weren't good enough to post in the Finally Finished section, then you sucked it up and worked harder. You posted in the critiques section and let those who are good enough help elevate you towards their level. If your artwork wasn't solid concept art or an exceptional fantasy illustration, then you posted on DeviantArt, the critiques section or your sketchbook. A place where you are free to experiment, learn and avoid the discretionary eyes of our countless art connoisseurs.

    I don't really have a point here. I'm just wondering what anyone else thinks on the matter..
    Last edited by sourgasm; August 21st, 2008 at 03:04 PM.
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  3. #2
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    You pose a good question. As I recall, Carnifex's sticky (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90377) provides a good indication of whether you're finally finished, or critique center material. The obvious problem though, is that there is quite a large spectrum between the examples posted in that thread. I for one haven't the slightest clue where the cutoff boundary between the two forums are.

    Perhaps the mods implement a sort of grading system - where if an artwork's quality is disputable, a checklist is outlined to see if the piece does deserve to go to FF or CC.

    I believe that the level of critique needed to improve any piece in question determines where it belongs in the forums. If there are issues with dynamic balance, then it might belong in FF; if there are basic anatomy issues, then it might belong in CC.

  4. #3
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    It should be considered that many posts that would otherwise be moved might stay simply because moderators were either unable to get the time to handle them or were simply unaware. Our moderators have day jobs and social lives beyond their moderating duties, both of which can hinder their ability to catch everything.

    On what should be in the Finally Finished section, as opposed to what is, I agree it should be top quality. Without getting into the philosophy of aesthetics I'd argue that anything posted in Finally Finished should be something good enough to see print (in a magazine, book, poster, card game, et cetera), be hung and sold in a gallery, or be used in a video game and/or movie. Generally speaking, since that is a bit vague, it should be a piece of work that is not only amongst your best but stands out as having commercial value to your peers.

    Not the clearest description since there's a great deal of disagreement over what different people would print or hang or what all, but anything more in depth borders on arguments over aesthetics... something I'd leave to a more qualified individual (like JasonWClark, *cough*).
    Last edited by Anid Maro; August 21st, 2008 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Typo
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  6. #4
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    I was just browsing that thread on FF. The works in question were polished, professional examples of a deliberately playful, stylized genre of illustration. That kind of simplicity is a lot harder than it looks. Broaden your horizons; try it some time.
    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anid Maro View Post
    On what should be in the Finally Finished section, as opposed to what is, I agree it should be top quality. Without getting into the philosophy ot aesthetics I'd argue that anything posted in Finally Finished should be something good enough to see print (in a magazine, book, poster, card game, et cetera), be hung and sold in a gallery, or be used in a video game and/or movie.
    That's pretty much it. Post in FF should be pro/semi-pro quality for whatever that particular genre is. And you're exactly right, some stuff just slips through the cracks. If you see something that you think might not belong in FF, you can always report it. What you shouldn't do is clutter up/flame threads with "this doesn't belong in FF" posts.
    Last edited by Elwell; August 21st, 2008 at 05:41 PM.

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    I was just browsing that thread on FF. The works in question were polished, professional examples of a deliberately playful, stylized genre of illustration. That kind of simplicity is a lot harder than it looks. Broaden your horizons; try it some time.
    I wasn't trying to imply that she lacked talent. I just thought that particular breed of art felt really odd placed between a detailed drawing of a vagina and a vampire hunter.

    I have more to say on the subject, but no time right now. Elwell, as usual, and Maro cleared up a lot of my questions about the issue.
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  11. #7
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    If Hokusai posted here you'd have issues with his wonky perspective wouldn't you?

  12. #8
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    I dunno, I understood what you were saying the whole time - Just a big case of the wrong word at the wrong time around some people who might be a tad jumpy. None the less it did lead to good questions, and that's worth it.

    I always feel that the Finally Finished area is my go to place for inspiration during a bad day. Some art doesn't fit that too well for me, but then again we all have a variety of genre tastes and who knows what we'll learn from in the long run..... I was once told that in order to appreciate art and learn from it in a way that benefits is to throw yourself in head first and look at a ton of it, even if it's not your preferred genre..... some of the greated information I've learned didn't come from fantasy illustrators, and yet I am in general a fantasy illustrator. So when it comes down to it, I welcome artwork that doesn't look anything like the art around it.

    Still, a looot of people put stuff in FF that needs to be moved to the critique forum or something. It's gotta be subjective or it defeats the purpose of a creative based forum. You couldn't pay me to be a mod around this place (not that anybody would offer it to me haha. I know I wouldn't..) just because of that. That'd be rough.

  13. #9
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    I was confused because I've seen paintings worse than the ones in that thread stay in the FF forum and better ones moved to the critiques section. I don't understand the definitions by which moderators move posts, I guess, which is why I continued the conversation over here.

    Meanwhile, over at that post, I've become a close minded, ignorant bigot of some sort because I didn't understand why cute, cartoon styled paintings were being posted. If they get moved every time they're posted, I thought I was justified in my questioning of why this particular art was allowed to stay. On that matter, I'm still confused.

    This has all just gotten ridiculous.
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  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sourgasm View Post
    I was confused because I've seen paintings worse than the ones in that thread stay in the FF forum and better ones moved to the critiques section.
    Examples please.

    Tristan Elwell
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  15. #11
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    I don't have examples readily available.

    As you said, some things slip through the cracks. I guess it's just hard to know what slipped through and what is being allowed to stay sometimes, that's all.
    Last edited by sourgasm; August 21st, 2008 at 11:17 PM.
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  16. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    That's pretty much it. Post in FF should be pro/semi-pro quality for whatever that particular genre is. And you're exactly right, some stuff just slips through the cracks. If you see something that you think might not belong in FF, you can always report it. What you shouldn't do is clutter up/flame threads with "this doesn't belong in FF" posts.
    I guess if the creator of PaRappa the Rappa posted in "It's Finally Finished" someone would complain and move her stuff to the "critiques" section. Despite the fact the game revolutionized a lot of games that followed soon after. If you didn't know what PaRappa The Rappa was back then and it wasn't mentioned what it was for.....

    Just a thought...

    What I have seen the artist do looking at her DA is also make things for merchandising, plushes, tshirt design. So is that to say it isn't professional because its not concept work for a game (though I did mention Pa Rappa already).

    You never know what style can make a game successful.
    Last edited by Arshes Nei; August 22nd, 2008 at 01:00 PM.

  17. #13
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    As a few folks have already said, the style doesn't determine if it's "pro" level or not. The quote you cite takes a nod to this idea: Post in FF should be pro/semi-pro quality for whatever that particular genre is.
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  18. #14
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    I can't speak for all the mods as for how something might get past us when I'm strapped for time, the threads with 0 replies are always the first ones that grab my attention for review. This is why we ask people NOT to post in them just to say, "this belongs in CC." It's completely unnecessary and a little rude.

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