Sketchbook: My NOT MUCH NUDITY AT ALL, Somewhat revamped and editted sometimes Sketchbook. - Page 2
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Thread: My NOT MUCH NUDITY AT ALL, Somewhat revamped and editted sometimes Sketchbook.

  1. #31
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    Youve got some really cool pieces in here I like how your experimenting with other mediums. But your pencil drawings are really good and I can't wait to see what they'll look like finished.

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  2. #32
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    This picture doesnt do the work justice. I'll get a better photo up when I can. In the mean time:

    Size: 18"x24"
    Medium: Graphite
    Support: Illustration Board
    Time: 15 Hours
    (The robots lineart was the only thing I had decided on prior to starting)

    Name:  Robot With Beehive Prosthetic.jpg
Views: 990
Size:  364.6 KB

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  3. #33
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    JeffX99 is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Hey hitnrun,

    Since you seem pretty motivated I just wanted to offer a little advice and insight...
    you seem tough enough to be able to take it so I won't sugar-coat anything. And the reason for offering the advice is because I think you're off to a good start, but are getting a little bit of a "bum steer". So please accept the following feedback in the spirit it is intended, as good, realistic advice that will hopefully inspire and help you mature as an artist.


    Never start a statement/thread with, "I don't mean to sound egotistical,...". Mainly because; A - it does; B - it is an amateur thing to say; C - it can only go downhill from there.

    You tend to make excuses for your art (many do around here - you're not alone). Don't do that. Post it if you think it is worth posting or if you want critique - do not "qualify" your work with any excuse, justification, it's old, my scanner is crap, etc. Just bad form - it's like saying, "I'm actually a really good football player...but my ankle hurts today."

    Resist offering critique to artists who are beyond your current skill level - even when you might be right. They will check on where the critique is coming from and will resist (with good reason) your observations - again, even if you're right. Just nature's way. Edgar Payne (20th century landscape painter) once said, "Knowledge precedes execution". He meant that we can know and understand something intellectually before we can actually execute, but until you can walk the walk, so to speak, best to sit back and learn as much as possible.

    So that advice has more to do with attitude and communication...now on the technical side:

    Glad to see you're taking life drawing - though it seems like you got into a class that isn't well structured as far as fundamentals go - seems more like an intro or overview because the instructor has the class using a variety of media, not to mention two model setups - very advanced stuff. Do your best to stick to the fundamentals no matter what medium you use.

    Set up a spot in your apartment/space (like a corner) where you can set up simple still lifes and light them with a single light source - without influence from ambient light. Draw from these every day.

    You seem already aware that drawing and painting at an easel is the best approach so I won't go into that - you're getting that experience in your life drawing and Master's studies.

    Be aware that just copying Bridgman, Loomis, etc. from books isn't all that productive - keep in mind they drew from life - much larger than those little reproductions - people seem to forget that.

    Anyway - that's plenty for thought right now. I will close with my highest recommendations for two books you should get (especially if you want to teach some day):
    "Drawing Essentials" by Deborah Rockman
    "Imaginitive Realism" by James Gurney

    Good luck to you! I look forward to seeing your progress...

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  5. #34
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    For tonight, I'm dog tired, so I'll just say thank you for the reply, I do appreciate the feedback. I agree with much of what you said, and now that college is done, I can work on fixing everything and getting CURRENT images up. Check out the "Show your Studioes [RELOADED]" thread because I have 3 pics of my "studio" there.

    Tomorrow I'll give a much more in depth reply - because I made an error - my last final is tomorrow at 8 AM and I have to study for at least another hour.

    --edit-- Very sorry I haven't given that in depth answer yet, I'll give it tomorrow morning (3:30 AM now) and hopefully all will be good!

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 21st, 2011 at 03:31 AM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  6. #35
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    Here's a quickly sketched skull from a book by Paul Levielle called "Drawing Expressive Portraits".

    Name:  quickly sketched skull.jpg
Views: 879
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    Here's a decent sketch of my main character, PD.

    Name:  PD.jpg
Views: 858
Size:  109.4 KB

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 21st, 2011 at 03:28 AM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  7. #36
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    Hey all, just a few small things here. I'll start off with the two portraits I'm doing from magazine covers. BTW, possible to change the thread title? "HitNRuns Feature Presentation" was an attempt at humor, and now it's bothering me.

    Reference:
    Name:  Mag Reference.jpg
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    Drawing (*WIP*)
    Name:  ParentingMagCover.jpg
Views: 578
Size:  227.9 KB

    Amy Poehler Reference
    Name:  PoehlerReference.png
Views: 627
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    Drawing (*WIP*)
    Name:  amypoehlerWIP.jpg
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    Thanking God I remembered how to do that. Anywho, here's some other stuff. Comments and tips on both portraits are greatly encouraged! I don't think I got the childs portrait quite right and I think the eye brows being too high are one reason. Perhaps when I finish the shading it'll be more energetic?

    And Amy there just needs more work. Going to darken the other eye area, get the hair massed, make the shadows stronger, etc..

    Here's a beasty lookin thing and what became a skull. These two were done yesterday I think.

    Name:  Beasties.jpg
Views: 593
Size:  315.5 KB

    More in the next post.

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 21st, 2011 at 10:13 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  8. #37
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    Here's the last two for tonight. I'm planning on painting something tomorrow; going to TRY To use acrylics (which never usually works out for me, the dry time is too fast ARGH!!)


    The sole sketch which started off as a monster and is now my concept for Death Sentence. If this dude looks familar, it's because the shape of his head is taken from the Angel of Death or whoever from Hellboy. I just gave him the face of a skeleton and I'll edit it more. Throw some details, maybe a few chips and battle wounds.

    Name:  Death Sentence Concept.jpg
Views: 561
Size:  267.7 KB

    And finally here's one more cat like beasty lookin skull, and an explosion I was sketching from imagination:

    Name:  beast&explosion.jpg
Views: 556
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    For now, that's all I've got!

    OH and sorry about the random dark streaks on the images - the studio light I have was between the overhead light I used for the photos, and the actual drawings.. Took me a minute or two to figure out how to get rid of that shadow and then the obvious hit me - move the damn light. I can't count how many times I've nearly knocked that thing over (which is why I didn't actually want to move it, it was in a good spot to be out of harms way, but I had to /ramble)

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 8th, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  9. #38
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    I finally found your sketchbook Great stuff you have here man .

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  10. #39
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    Wanderer, thank you for the comment and the compliment dude! I'm about to upload the other sketches I have so far of Judgement (the prismacolor markered version of him is HORRIBLE. Lost so much from the pencil drawing), and the only sketch I have for the creature portrait I've decided is concept 1 for Death Sentence.. Unfortunately I'm finding many of my inspirations coming from YuGiOh cards. I'm not TRYING to base my creatures off of those illustrations, it's just sort of happening.

    --edit-- On the first page is a robot that I drew a while back. Here he is, redone and editted.

    Name:  New Robot.jpg
Views: 612
Size:  261.9 KB

    I'm thinking the perspective is off in some places, but I wasn't totally sure how to handle it so I did my best.

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 21st, 2011 at 11:39 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  11. #40
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    hey man great sketchbook so far, love the amy pohler sketch from the magazine cover

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  12. #41
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    Sketch from a Magazine.

    Attachment 1420257

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    Last edited by hitnrun; July 8th, 2013 at 05:10 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  13. #42
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    Thanks for stopping by my sketchbook and for the critique.

    I really like the last sketch - it has attitude, I'll be subscribing to you sb to see your progress

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  14. #43
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    Okay, so, small update. These pics were all taken with the wonderfully high resolution 2 MP camera on my phone. Heck it's good enough for like 5"x5" sketches, long as I can keep a steady hand. Can't find my digital camera ANYWHERE.. Anywho, first guy is my most recent and serious attempt at drawing an anatomically correct, albeit exaggerated (so right off the bat we have a contradiction) superhero. Not much to look at, but hey, wasn't going for fleshed out, overkill decor superhero.
    Name:  Hero.jpg
Views: 77
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    Obviously this sketch is based off Spiderman/Venom/Carnage, Just love how they look! This guy has "symbiotes" jetting off him the same way carnage would, but again, camera phone..Name:  EZgon.jpg
Views: 85
Size:  50.7 KB

    sketch of a novice soldier who thinks he knows everything.
    Name:  Photo-0021.jpg
Views: 338
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    Barb Helmet - design eyeballed from an image from the Barbarian video on the D3 website - copied it so I could figure out why it was so badass!
    Name:  Barb Helmet Copy.jpg
Views: 74
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    Basic orc head. Was just trying to explore outside the usual human facial proportions. Don't think I quite managed to get where I wanted to be with this..
    Name:  Orc Head.jpg
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    So, crits and comments welcomed - and I plan on practicing hands and feet because they are obvious weak areas of mine. So, besides saying "study anatomy of hands and feet" - I'll take whatever crits/comments you've got.

    --edit-- If anyone has any ideas on how to make the sole of a boot/shoe/any footwear that has a sole look better than what I can do, PLEASE, let me know! All I know to do at the moment is draw it as a separate part like in the first image. Again, any crits/comments welcome, and if you know how I can make any of my stuff look better (besides photography comments), I'm all ears!

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 8th, 2013 at 05:35 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  15. #44
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    Digital sketches - no clue what I'm doing with digital except building framework and doing some simple massing in. No idea how to do any sort of rendering. Any tips?

    Also I discovered why folks put a color palette in their image area.. Less hassle when changing colors. I know, I've advocated against digital, but since I've seen some good work done with it, it's stoked my interest. Consider it me attempting to grow as an artist. These three sketches are completely representative of my ability to render digitally.. I have no clue wtf I'm doing. Also please note, I want to know how to create soft edges WITHOUT using Alpha Channels, Selection Tools and options that do the feathering for you! I'm looking for a way to do it WITH THE BRUSH! (yes, traditional technique in a digital work - can it be done?). Once I learn how to do it with only one or two tools at hand, I'll go into deeper stuff. Any tips from anyone? Info is always appreciated!

    One
    Name:  quick human figure.jpg
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    Two
    Name:  My Digital Best at the moment..jpg
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    Three - the white circled areas are example of hard edges that I don't know how to soften (you can see them in all the sketches, they're just blatantly pointed out here for clearer visual example).
    Name:  quickly sketched still live.jpg
Views: 283
Size:  89.1 KB

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  16. #45
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    So some stuff I've done within the past couple days.. The last two watercolor images were done just last night.

    Watercolor Yoda was just last night, but the copic one was done a few nights ago when the Star Wars with the classic "I, am your father" line. Am I the only one who thought that was the most cliche, non-dramatic thing ever?

    Anywho: Watercolors

    Name:  Watercolor page 1.jpg
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    Name:  Watercolor Page 2.jpg
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    Name:  Watercolor Page 3.jpg
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    Name:  Watercolor page 4.jpg
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    Watercolor Yoda with half cocked light saber!

    Name:  Watercolor Yda.jpg
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    Copic Yodas

    Name:  Yoda.jpg
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    Name:  Yoda 2.jpg
Views: 251
Size:  105.4 KB

    I'm also realizing uploading from a URL (such as a place like Imgur) is probably a lot easier than uploading from my computer..

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  17. #46
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    thought i would drop by your sketchbook since you gave mine a visit. My only comment is i look through your stuff and i see improvement from the first page to the last. Alot of improvement actually and i had to let you know that. But at the same time which isn't a bad thing i don't really have a sense of what you like and dislike about art from your sketchbook.

    I don't know, it might just be me. But i like to explore everything and do it slowly. All styles all everything. But of course paying close attention to the fundamentals is the most important so i do some things much slower then others.

    But anyway back to my ramble. I like to explore art so i'll do some abstract stuff, ill do some designs, ill do some 2D art, ill do some surreal art, ill do stuff from imagination, ill do something cartoonish, i'll toss in realism. Etc etc

    Then i start REALLY discovering what i myself enjoy. Then i keep what i enjoy the most (enjoy drawing that is and aesthetic quality) and keep those things and find ways to incorporate those things into my work.

    Right now i like the following styles in order of what i like most to least, impressionalism,surrealism,(all realisms starting with hyper , photo, then regular), abstract, cartoon. I'm not gonna name anymore because i have yet to mess with those.

    But this is what i did 4 years ago. I cared about this stuff. Now i am sitting down and learning the fundamentals after not drawing for 2 years. So EVERYTHING is so off and not as refined as it use to be when i was coming straight out of my art classes and such.

    But yea i still go searching and i pick artwork even if its amature work that i like. Then i create a library of all the various styles of art. My library is my deviantArt account. I have yet to really study masters or old masters, but i will.

    But as of today my most influential artists are M C. Escher, and Armin Mersmann. I see art as a journey and a exploration. Something that each individual will find and discover on their own, some take the difficult routes some take the more clear and easy to navigate. Some get lost and give up, while some find the destination they were looking for or whatever reason that brought them into becoming artists in the first place.

    But yea i completely just wrote a wall of text on your sketchbook and i am done talking about this subject!

    Here is my Sketchbook:http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...93#post3491593


    Life drawing & Still Life thread:http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...97#post3498997

    If you comment on my art and i am curious about your critique and want to learn more. I will ask you questions bluntly and directly.
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  18. #47
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    All good man I appreciate the feedback. I'm just trying my hand at other media since I do so much drawing - Drawing in general is my comfort zone, so I'm trying to break out of that - which, since I'm about to upload MORE drawings, thats a funny statement to make.

    Uploading a few things - everything has been done from the past few months, up until possibly last night. I've got quite a few images coming up so I'll break it down into a few posts.

    first batch - apologies if I have some uploaded already.

    Alien (based on Venom) done with drying up PITT marker
    Name:  Alien 1.jpg
Views: 231
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    Demon sketch
    Name:  Demon Closeup.jpg
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    [B]
    Next are LAST TWO of Post - NSFW

    Last edited by hitnrun; July 8th, 2013 at 05:14 PM.
    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  19. #48
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    Second Batch of Six Images

    A few Hand sketches - most done at a Doctor's Office lobby.

    Name:  Hand 1.jpg
Views: 230
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    Name:  Hand 2.jpg
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    Name:  My hand from observation.jpg
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    Name:  Page 1, Two Hands.jpg
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    Next is a portrait, photo referenced - it was a practice sketch before I started the commissioned piece.

    Name:  Portrait 1.jpg
Views: 220
Size:  25.6 KB

    Lastly for this batch is a Before/After piece. Show's progress I've made. It was suppose to be the anatomy as good as I could get it. I think the "In with the New" work I could get a little more detail, but not much.

    Name:  In With The New2.jpg
Views: 247
Size:  75.4 KB

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  20. #49
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    Next Batch. Four images left.

    "Skeleton tormentor" - fanart based on some D3 stuff I've seen in the artbook. Those folks really know how to draw a demon skull!

    Name:  Skeleton Tormentor.jpg
Views: 291
Size:  154.4 KB

    Next is a head I based on Venom's face and something next to him that's.. I dunno, some kind of toxic caterpillar?

    Name:  Symbiote Infection and something else..jpg
Views: 267
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    This *was* an attempt at venom - I need to reference some body builder pics because this thing is coming out too stylized for how I want it to look.

    Name:  Venom Attempt 1.jpg
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    Lastly is another D3 sort of "fanart", which could also be called a DBZ Super Saijan because I realized I missed those lava glowing veins that Barbs who've used "Wrath of the Berserker" have. Oh well. I still think it looks cool.

    Name:  Behemoth.jpg
Views: 248
Size:  84.5 KB

    And for now, that's about it folks. I'm going to try to get the two commissions I have finished up and I'll get those uploaded. One's a double portrait and the other is a logo for a small business. Once they're done, I'll see about some watercolors, and two oil portraits I'm working on. One's Mariska Hargitay and the other is some random ghost face I made up - looks like an attractive 20 something woman with "Fear" (yes the game) based eyes. Was kind of shooting for Alma at first. I have a bad habit of trying to draw figures like Spider Man, Super Man and Alma without reference material. Hence, my attempts usually fail and I get something interesting instead. OH I have a lineart captain planet to upload soon!

    Okay, for now, that's all!

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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  21. #50
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    Hi there- saw your post in the "bit dead" thread and thought I would take a look. I would like to say that you've gotten plenty of fantastic advice per content/effort on your part.

    What artists who want to grow need is "Here's a few things wrong, here's a few things right".
    To me it looks like you have been getting this. Maybe not always in direct response to a particular piece, but in general life lessons/advice if nothing else. One thing you have to understand is that the forum acts like a conversation. Someone posting in your sb is like saying "Hi, btw...", and if you respond by taking the initiative to show work reflecting advice given, or simply respond or discuss the started subject with some thought, you'll get a lot more out of the process. For example, your response to post 50 reads as a very, very offhand answer. You could have responded with some thoughts about what your fave styles are, discuss what about various media you like/dislike, etc. The poster would have felt you had listened and appreciated the time they spent writing, and you would have had to think and learn about your own place in the whole art world.

    Anyway, some technical advice which is the exact same as in post 50- slow down. It's better to get to do 5 drawings that are very, very well done in a week, than 30 ones that aren't the best you can do. Try for more precision, less scribbling. Try drawing with different pens if you want to draw, but don't want to do a huge media jump. Anyway, focus on something, get better at it or qualify what you've learned from the experience, before jumping to the next.

    I have a bad habit of trying to draw figures like Spider Man, Super Man and Alma without reference material.
    You know this. You said this. Do this! And when you get reference, don't go for other people's fanart, or even drawings from professionals. Find some stock like this: http://jademacalla.deviantart.com/ and use that, or even better, yourself in a mirror.

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  23. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixie Trick View Post
    Hi there- saw your post in the "bit dead" thread and thought I would take a look. I would like to say that you've gotten plenty of fantastic advice per content/effort on your part.



    To me it looks like you have been getting this. Maybe not always in direct response to a particular piece, but in general life lessons/advice if nothing else. One thing you have to understand is that the forum acts like a conversation. Someone posting in your sb is like saying "Hi, btw...", and if you respond by taking the initiative to show work reflecting advice given, or simply respond or discuss the started subject with some thought, you'll get a lot more out of the process. For example, your response to post 50 reads as a very, very offhand answer. You could have responded with some thoughts about what your fave styles are, discuss what about various media you like/dislike, etc. The poster would have felt you had listened and appreciated the time they spent writing, and you would have had to think and learn about your own place in the whole art world.

    Anyway, some technical advice which is the exact same as in post 50- slow down. It's better to get to do 5 drawings that are very, very well done in a week, than 30 ones that aren't the best you can do. Try for more precision, less scribbling. Try drawing with different pens if you want to draw, but don't want to do a huge media jump. Anyway, focus on something, get better at it or qualify what you've learned from the experience, before jumping to the next.

    You know this. You said this. Do this! And when you get reference, don't go for other people's fanart, or even drawings from professionals. Find some stock like this: http://jademacalla.deviantart.com/ and use that, or even better, yourself in a mirror.
    I'm reading your reply, and I'm not understanding one or two things. 1)Any advice I've ever been given is usually stuff I already know. (Not just here, but in every class I've ever had, "study anatomy", "work on forms and values", and all that other stuff - yea, I know to do it, I just feel like I'm past having to do that save for warming up. I know I have trouble with hands and feet so I've been practicing them, and I do a good drawing now and then to reassure myself I CAN do it.) I reflect a lot - I just don't post it here. 2) In all honesty, why would anyone want to know what I like or dislike about any media? If it's more for MY purpose, I know all that stuff already. I know I don't like acrylics because I just suck with them. I know I like oils because of the slower dry times and classic look they give. I like graphite because I can control it. I like pen and ink, but I hate having to clean the pen. Working with color - I get bored with it very quickly for some reason. I don't like trying to match colors, I don't like mixing paint, and I HATE HATE HATE washing brushes. I'd probably rather saw my hands off than wash mineral spirits out of a brush or even just acrylic paint. Maybe once I get some latex gloves I won't mind it as much. I'm insanely OCD about things on my hands that won't come off easily, or inhibit my ability to use my hands - like grease or dry paint. But in general, cleaning brushes is a pain in the ass I'd rather not deal with. I will soon be doing rough sketching with colored pencil, then going in with a B or even a pen and doing the finished sketch. Saw it on Deviantart, loved it, and decided I want to start that. But seriously, why does it matter to anyone but me what I like about a process? (I say this mostly because, say for example someone loves colored pencils.. I don't care what about them he or she likes, I care that the person is doing good work with them. I care that I can look at it, and study the style, study what he/she did, how it was done, and learn from it. Either learn something about the media used, or someway I can improve my own work. Or I care that I can help the person improve if I see something is definitely wrong. Don't go by my sketchbook here if trying to determine my skill level LOL.) Just about anything NOT graphite was really done to keep my professors quiet. Some ink stuff I like doing - but the nudes done in Terra Cotta conte.. OmG shoot me if I ever have to do that again - couldn't get values, accurate skin tones, or any level of control...

    As for the technique advice - you're %100 correct. Quite recently I realized I WAS going too fast. In lieu of which I changed the way I draw and shade. Also THANK YOU for the deviantart link! Those are going straight into a folder because I'm going to find them *incredibly* useful And I do look at professional drawings but it's more to see how they handled drawing the muscles. Most models aren't half as built as someone like Wolverine, or a fraction as big as Juggernaut and Hulk. I look at pro work to see how they handled the drawing itself - but the stock guys are great for seeing how the anatomy should be, how the pose looks, etc., so again, thank you for that.

    I hope I don't sound like a miserable old bat. I probably do, and by now you probably regret posting to my sketchbook - so I do apologize if you or anyone feels I've been hostile in this reply. I wasn't trying to be nasty. Just trying to give food for though. I appreciate you stopping by and giving me something to reply to. OH, and the "offhand reply" - Sorry I just agreed with a lot of what was typed, and didn't have anything meaningful to contribute. So, there, it's all out now.

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
    George Bridgman
    Joseph Sheppard
    Andrew Loomis
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