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I get a little heated on matters of patriotism sometimes. It's a tough time to be an American. I just read a story about how a singer was asked to sing the Star Spangled Banner at a political gathering in Denver, CO and she changed the lyrics to a gospel hymn that many call the "Black National Anthem."
That really bothered me. Pride of your people is one thing. But the National Anthem is the National Anthem and should be respected.
SVE, sorry if I misunderstood your post. It seems everyone else thinks you were not defending Communism so I must be in the wrong here. Hope I didn't irritate you too badly with my "Fuck Communism" rant! lol.
Forgive my zealotry.
ego flex, one sided, twenty paragraphs with half baked philosophies noone will ever read or notice
Why is it important if I defended it or was against it? We were discussing if Communism resembles religion. Any religion has certain common features, positive or negative, it is subjective for everyone.
Communism is Utopia IMO, and morning after Judgment day is Utopia IMO.
Last edited by sve; July 2nd, 2008 at 10:53 PM.
What some self-centered moronic twit does at a ball game has no part of this thread. You wanna rant about it, do so, in an appropriate place. DON'T make it one more proof that everybody here that is trying to discuss something with you is all part of a seditious fuckin' conspiracy that's out to prove you're a traitor of some kind. You damn well owed Sve (and a few other people) an apology, and you posted one...a real one, so I give you points for that.
Now, get off your fuckin' self-centered high horse and actually try to listen to people instead of assuming you know what they said without actually reading AND understanding what they wrote. It gets boring and a bit childish real fast.
You and I in a locked room would probably kill each other. Reason? Judging by your rants, I'm fairly certain you'd consider me a traitor, seditious, unpatriotic, and anti-US. If that was your honest opinion, you'd be entitled to it without any comment from me, but as I start to interpret your attitude from your writings, and your bull-headed insistence on coming out on top, I'm fairly certain you'd be saying it with a self-righteous sneer on your face, and that would really piss me off.
I have an absolute hatred of fascists and dogmatic religious freaks with closed minds. Your discussions comes across as fascist rhetoric to me, not a defense of your patriotism. Chill out. Think twice before you post something, and maybe try to see at least SOME good in SOME opinions that are unlike yours and may be just as valid as yours.
Sorry for the rant in public, but I think I've dropped enough hints, and now I've lost my patience. My sincere apologies for that.
You have the ability to state things concisely and clearly to support your opinions. You do it in a less combative way, and you'll be a real joy to "argue" with. Treat your discussion mates as the enemy and always wrong, and you'll just piss everybody off. It's happened before here. I would not like to see it happen again. Unnerstand?
I'm making these comments to you because it's possible I'll get banned for it. It could hurt someone else who really needs this forum if they said them. I don't care. I'm here because I like it. I just don't like to see people I've come to see as friends get pushed around verbally.
Can we end this and be at least civil to each other, if not friends?
No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary
Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
Thank you, Illy, for calling me a friend and trying to protect me, it is very, really kind of you and I appreciate it enormously... And you, Flake,... thank you for trying to clear misunderstanding... I'm ready to be solely responsible for my actions and words though.
I like to observe. It is all lessons of human nature.
Thank you again... but I wasn't offended. I didn't talk to my opponent only, I talked maybe to you and some other people.
And kauser.ali... about patriotism.
Real patriots who love their country, they love it for what it is, they know its ugly sides as well as its good ones. They don't close their eyes on its deficiencies and love some ideal, phony country.
If their country soul is sick from its own domestic diseases... they are aware of it and suffer from them because they love their country and want to see it healthy. Hiding shortcomings increases the sickness.
Last edited by sve; July 3rd, 2008 at 12:02 AM.
My work: [link]
- Dan Dos Santos
nonie: how do you add youtube videos in a post.
I'm for the death penalty. A forced sexual assault against an unwilling victim is always wrong and there's no sympathy possible when there is undeniable proof.
We need to stop making criminals into heroes or victims in situations when they're clearly in control of their own actions.
wow. this thread ran away like a freight train!
i'm glad everyone participated. but i'm saddened by how heated it got. i definately had a role in that.
i do think i can be a bit bull-headed at times with my opinions. need to work on that...
far as sve's comments on communism being similar to religion, i think we just misunderstood each other. systematically communism is indeed similar to religion. imo, the difference lies in the purpose. i view religion's purpose as that of transcendance, of elevating people out of the muck of this world into another.
i can see how communism tries to do the same. so, i see your point sve. but i have to say i do not like the results. i have not seen one communist nation in this world's history accomplish that goal. i do not see communism as uplifting simply by the sheer results of the nations that have practiced it and continue to do so.
i see communism as the ultimate form of control.
i'll admit, many religions can take on that same level of control. and that is why i am glad we have seperation of church and state here in the u.s.
far as patriotism goes, yeah, we've all got problems as nations. i'm not denying america's negative. our biggest negative is lack of patriotism. our people do not appreciate being americans and some are even ashamed of it.
i don't think you could say "god damn china" in their home turf and get away with it. i don't think japan would tolerate its people burning their flag.
but that sort of thing is tolerated here in the states. we do it for the sake of acceptance of all. but where is the line?
the supreme court interferes with everything. that's what started this thread.
they decreed it is permissable for people to burn the u.s. flag as a form of free expression. and now they've decreed states who vote in the majority for a convicted child rapist to die cannot do so.
i'm seeing this nation creep ever closer towards a socialist mentality and that sickens me. capitalism is an incredible ideal. it truly works. you allow people, without government interference, to compete with one another and you get progress. everytime in our past when the government has interfered with our people's ambition the government hindered progress.
the space race was won by the soviets due to the pentagon's delay in properly funding werner von braun. sputnik only became the first probe into outer space due to the u.s. federal government's lack of urgency on the matter. werner von braun saw it. he knew it could be done and understood what it would mean for the nation to be first in space.
it's nice that we were able to surpass that misstep by landing on the moon. but ever since then we have had terrible delay in achieving the next logical step, mars.
the space race is just an example. government interference in anything slows down progress because it is too much red tape, too many hands in the cookie jar. the feds don't need to control business, don't need to tell local courts how they may sentence child rapists and certainly don't need to tell us how we may receive healthcare.
this supreme court decision is just one more example of "big brother" screwing everything up for the hard working people of this nation. and i frankly do see us as the modern day greece. the world's hope for a democratic ideal.
but it's all being tarnished by the bufoons in washington. we are the only nation in the history of the world that established its power not through expanding our borders but through expanding our influence globally.
that is a remarkable achievement. and our own people are blind to it and not proud. that is the negative in america. our people's lack of pride and our government's constant interference with the status quo.
R.I.P. Michael Turner 1971-2008
"you allow people, without government interference, to compete with one another and you get progress."
No... You get those with wealth becoming more and more wealthy and those without it serving as slaves. You get monopolies and strangled markets. Those companies that gain control of the market do so by being heartless bastards and sure as hell aren't going to do nice things like pay a decent wage if they don't have to. If a company can profit more by behaving without ethics, then they will soon beat out the honest companies - there are reasons why we've got checks on our capitalist system... and we haven't done enough because we *still* we have evil giants like Walmart, Exxon, etc.
I do believe some regulations should be in place to prevent monopolies and ethics violations. But this current government brand of "regulating" is borderline hostile takeover.
You mentioned Exxon Mobile. In fact, all of the oil companies are currently under attack for raking in record profits the past few years while crude oil prices have soared in tandem.
The government is accusing the oil companies of profiteering and price gouging. And plenty of politicians, such as Obama and Clinton, have suggested a "windfall profits tax" against oil companies. The principle agenda? If the oil companies make more money than the government thinks they ought to then they will be severely taxed as punishment.
The oil companies are indeed making record profits. This is not due to price gouging. They aren't making a higher margin of profit. They are simply selling more volume of product.
India and China have increased their demand for oil severely the past few years. And this increase in demand has led to higher crude oil prices as the supply simply cannot increase as quickly as the demand has.
The oil companies are indeed making record profits. But not because they are charging a higher margin compared to their overhead costs. They are selling more barrels of crude oil than they used to, more volume, and thus the dollar amount in profits is considerably higher.
But the government wants to step in and charge them for making money. How is that fair? You want to lower oil prices, loosen the regulations against off-shore oil exploration and allow these companies to do what they want to do, invest their earnings into future business growth by finding more oil and drilling it out.
That's the kind of government interfering I'm against.
And the wealthy don't become more while the poor remain slaves, Nonie. Bill Gates had no wealth. He made himself into a billionaire, didn't he? That is progress. That is what free-market capitalism is all about. That is what I want to protect.
Wal-Mart offers consumers a price small businesses cannot offer. That is what they do.
They pay a wage comparable with the quality of work required. Wal-Mart employees aren't tax attorneys solving difficult legal concepts. They are, by definition, low-skilled labor workers. I am not trying to insult anyone here. I have two friends who work at Wal-Mart.
What I am saying is the job of a Wal-Mart employee requires no college education, does not even require a high school diploma far as skill level is concerned. You are either ringing up a cash register or stocking shelves. It is a low-skill level job. A bank teller requires more skills.
And thus, Wal-Mart's offered wage for their employees is fair. How much should someone stocking shelves or ringing up groceries get paid? Ten an hour?
Wal-Mart also provides job opportunities for workers overseas. In order to keep their prices low they have factories worldwide, mostly in third-world countries where the cost of living is low, and thus the pay offered to the workers there is minimal compared to what would have to be paid to workers in America.
What people complain about is the quality of work at those factories. Many toys, for instance, have come from China that were against US quality control code. That is a managerial problem at that particular factory, not at Wal-Mart.
People complain about the long hours factory workers in these third world countries have to work. What people fail to realize is that these same workers were starving before being offered the job at the Wal-Mart factory. They would work the fields as the majority of third world countries have an agriculture industry or a shipping industry where manual labor is all that is available. Maybe they could be fishermen? The Wal-Mart factory, while it may pale in comparison to America's work standards, is better than what they have had in the third world.
And while China may not be third world, even there the job opportunities for non-college graduates are far more limited than in America. Factory jobs are a relief for their laborforce.
I don't understand the hatred of "Corporate America."
I remember this article about people complaining that the Nike factory in Vietnam only paid $100US per month to its workers. These human rights groups wanted Nike to pay the same wage to Vietnamese workers as they would have to pay to American workers. Trouble is, $100US is enough support a family of four in Vietnam! These human rights groups weren't understanding how low the cost of living is there.
Plus, if you want sneakers for $60 instead of $200, quit yer griping!
Nonie, what I am against is the current mentality in America where people are vindictive towards those with wealth. Wealth is created, for the most part, not distributed. Sure, some are born with it. But the majority work hard for it and earn it. I do not like the current Socialist mentality in Washington where the government wants to tax those making more than a certain amount of money per year a higher percentage of taxes.
Steven King once said in an interview he had to pay 50% income tax during the 80s! Here is a guy who worked hard developing his talent and does something for a living most people could not do. Why should he be penalized for his efforts by having half his yearly income taken away by the IRS?
If you pay 22% federal income tax now while you work at Best Buy selling computers as a single twenty-something or teen, why should you have to pay 47% federal income tax once you get married and earn six figures as a doctor/lawyer/film director/orchestra cello player, etc.? It is a jealous mentality.
Socialism weakens. Capitalism strengthens. Believe it.
Last edited by Pandora's Eyes; July 7th, 2008 at 08:00 PM.
Dealing with extreme situations and ideas is always a good way to make your point but it seldom clarifies things or offers a real chance to understand a problem for the gray area it is. Wal-Mart and other corporations, the wealthy, economic divisions and class resentment, mostly live in these gray areas.
Wal-mart is bad and good. Bad for some people, good for others, bad and good for most. Yes, they sell cheap (in many senses of the word) goods which is beneficial to many Americans on the lower end of the economic spectrum. Your paycheck will take you farther there.
It's also sometimes bad for those same people- Wal-mart is kind of known as a main street killer, with unbeatable prices through their economies of scale, they often really thin out if not completely destroy local mom and pop type places that have had the misfortune of selling goods or services that overlap with Wal-mart. Wal-mart has also allegedly used its huge buying power to pressure companies on the supply side to lower the prices they charge Wal-mart in ways that were less than fair. It's possible that it's this very same attitude, of racing to the bottom, who can do the most for the least, that leads to problems of quality and safety when corners need to be cut for everyone to preserve their shrinking margin of profit. Wal-mart has also had some issues (who knows where originating from in the line of command) with preventing unionization of its workers.
The other side of it is that yes, Wal-mart is a gigantic employer that hires on unskilled workers who may otherwise be unemployed- they've been helpful in hiring elderly workers who are turned down elsewhere. But these benefits also raise the question of if the system of overseas manufacturing and things like Wal-mart and other megacorporations (because Target, Home Depot, etc. all have some of the same negative features, if markedly fewer) had not cropped up in the first place, would these people be taken care of- whether through stable long-term factory jobs or fair pensions so that our elders don't need to be returning to the work force 20 years after retirement? Who knows what road the system could have gone down, and I suppose it doesn't matter much, since this is the road we're on.
As far as the overseas factory working condition stuff, I think that's a pretty deep and wide issue, and there's factories operating at all kinds of different standards. Some of it is good, people getting the money they need for their families in safe conditions, some of it is okay, and some of it is horrific such as cases of rape being used as an intimidation tactic to punish low productivity that are being investigated in Bangalore and other places.
I think the concerns in my mind mostly have to do with community, how these systems that are outside of various levels of community affect them for good or bad, and whether "growth" as defined in economic terms is always the best or most important thing. It's a question of competing interests, and how much the playing field should be controlled. I guess what I'm saying here is that I know too little, and the issue is too big for an artists' message board to dissect.
In any case this whole thing has been off-topic for awhile.
Also, I think use of terms like "evil giants" is a bit of a misnomer. Its not like Walmart is going arround sacrificing virgins to satanic gods or eating babies. Yes, they are big, but whats wrong with that? They are rich, but so far every time I hear someone talk about the evils of wealth it seems the only vice I can find is the jelousy of the person spouting such views. Is the size and wealth of a company such a vice as to be worse than the coveting of its wealth by others?
... and wow, what does this have to do with rape and children?
If you were a Wal-Mart exec you would conduct business in the same manner or you would be without a job soon enough.
And yet you cry about the unfairness of US Capitalism.
Capitalism is what grew our economy as fast as it did. It is why we have a fourth of the world's wealth even though we are a mere 300 Million people.
We are the world's largest consumer of crude oil. China is number two.
China has nearly 1.5 Billion people. The US has 300 Million. And yet we consume more crude oil than they do. Why? Because we live in comfortable cities and suburban towns and rural country ranches. We drive nice cars and big trucks and SUVs. We fly when we want to visit family or go on vacation.
We live well Nonie. And it's all because of US Capitalism.
This conversation we're having over the internet is thanks to Capitalism. Since it was the US Department of Defense that created the Internet for military purposes during the Cold War.
Grow up and respect the freedom that you have.
Or don't be surprised when someone more aware than you of the benefits of Capitalism, such as China or India, comes over and takes your luxury away from you.
After all, Japan, Russia, Israel, England, China and India have all switched to a Capitalist economy after learning from the US. And they are all proud of their nation's newfound economic strength.
Only in America are fools ashamed of the comforts our country has afforded us. I hang my head in shame.
The DOD invented the innernetz?
No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary
Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
a child has very low mental defenses against mentally surviving rape, and adults are more or less better at living with it.
also the size of the vagina is probably not adequate for sex when the person is like 10 years old, which results in bodily damage that an adult wont have. so you are completely wrong and make no sense.
you should really think more i find.
Also Israel? What? Israel didn't even exist until fairly recently and I'm reasonably sure they didn't start out as communists..
Read a book, then post.
Edit: actually, read a book, then don't.
Ok, I've typed this but I'm already getting that "Talking to brick wall" vibe, before I hit "post".
Israel was formed in 1948 and I never once said they were Communist. Though due to the influence of Carl Marx most Jews have a tendency to prefer Socialism which would lead to Communism. But Israel maintains a Capitalist economy as that has allowed it a strong foothold in the oil industry of the Middle East.
You effectively had no point in your ramble other than to spite me. But whatever. I'm effectively ejecting myself from this thread. I regret having started it. It's derailed off topic for some time now. Moving on...
"England" in the 80's was a rabidly capitalist economy, over the last ten years they elected an alegedly socialist government instead. You have it ass backwards.England had done that for many years before switching to a more Socialist economy. Over the past ten years they have been increasingly Capitalist.
Maintains? Your first post implies that Israel changed from something else into the glorious capitalism?But Israel maintains a Capitalist economy as that has allowed it a strong foothold in the oil industry of the Middle East.
Edit: why am I argung with a random American about the political landscape in Britain? I'm from here, I live here..this is silly..
Seriously, read a book or get off the interwebs.