China vs India vs Sumi-e
 
View testimonialsView Artwork
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    China vs India vs Sumi-e

    Hey everyone, In light of my Yoji Shinkawa research.. Ive decided to try painting and drawing with some good old black ink. I was at the art store today and realized that there are a few types. I told an employee that I was going to paint with it and would be diluting the ink quite a bit.. I explained that I wouldnt be writing with it in a pen very much. He suggested I get
    Sumi-e japanese ink. I checked it out and it seemed sort of watery. I also had read and was told that Shinkawa uses China ink. I believe I read somewhere that India ink and China ink are the same thing... is that true? I picked up a bottle of black and a bottle of white india ink. They had various types such as permanent, waterproof, non waterproof, etc. I got the non waterproof because I figured that would be the best to dilute. Do you guys have any suggestions for me as far as ink goes.. such as the best type to get in order to achieve wide range of opacities from mostly opaque to a very light watercolor look? Also are there any special ways to apply it )(special brushes?) Ive never used ink before so im kind of lost.. I hope I got the right kind

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,679 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Non-waterproof india ink is the way to go when you're starting out. If you end up a true ink wash connoisseur you can get into the various grades of Chinese and Japanese inks, but for now Higgins, Pelican etc. should be fine. If you haven't opened it, I'd return the "white india ink" (whatever that is), as white inks tend to be underpigmented. You're better off with white watercolor or gauche, should you need it, which for wash drawing you shouldn't anyway.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southeast coast, USA
    Posts
    2,794
    Thanks
    511
    Thanked 505 Times in 341 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Sumi-e is more "watery" than India ink. I believe China Ink is similar to Sumi-e in opacity. Not that Sumi-e can't be used to acheive darks...I had a professor who works in the industry as an inker and he uses Sumi-e because it flows better (everything is contrast adjusted in a computer anyway).

    Non-waterproof also flows and thins better. Waterproof can be like sludge if left too long.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    thanks alot guys.. I wasnt aware of any problems with white ink.. I saw sets many different color india inks online so I figured id pick up white to maybe get some cool highlight effects. Heres an example of white being used in a black ink piece.. maybe the white isnt india ink??

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  6. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,679 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by biggjoee5790 View Post
    thanks alot guys.. I wasnt aware of any problems with white ink.. I saw sets many different color india inks online so I figured id pick up white to maybe get some cool highlight effects. Heres an example of white being used in a black ink piece.. maybe the white isnt india ink??
    From the look of the line quality in that pic, I'd guess that the white lines are from some sort of ballpoint, like a gel-pen or correction pen.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    hmm it does say correcting inks on the bottom of the page.. guess its white-out. thanks man. Well im gonna try out the white.. I doubt ill use it much maybe just mess around for certain highlights or even to cover some black. The bottle was 2 bucks.. its gonna cost me more to take the train into Manhattan to return it Any other advice for a beginner at ink? By looking at the pic i posted.. can you figure out if any other mediums seemed to be used? techniques? Im not trying to copy it but I was really intrigued by the style and its something id like to build on.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southeast coast, USA
    Posts
    2,794
    Thanks
    511
    Thanked 505 Times in 341 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Elwell's right about the gel pen, or else a hard point dipped in some thinned gouache.

    White "India" ink is totally worthless to doing subtractive ink work. It ends up looking like you spilled something on your inks. Mr. Shinkawa has the luck of living where comic work is big business and thus they have some kicking white "ink" (it's actually paint I imagine) on the shelf next to the inking materials, but for the rest of us it's another story. Most definately pick up some white gouache instead. You can thin it with water, or use as-is. Also re-purpse an old toothbrush for some great splatter effects (stars, snow, sin-city-style blood splatter...) by putting a teeny dab of paint on the damp bristles and flicking with your thumb.

    As for other techniques, I'd say it looks like sumi-e ink washes with a bit of "dry brush" (ie...using a brush with low ink to create a gritty texture).

    Last edited by Mirana; May 20th, 2008 at 03:51 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirana View Post
    Elwell's right about the gel pen, or else a hard point dipped in some thinned gouache.

    White India ink is totally worthless to doing subtractive ink work. It ends up looking like you spilled something on your inks. Mr. Shinkawa has the luck of living where comic work is big business and thus they have some kicking white "ink" (it's actually paint I imagine) on the sheld next to the inking materials, but for the rest of us it's another story. Most definately pick up some white gouache instead. You can thin it with water, or use as-is. Also re-purpse an old toothbrush for some great splatter effects (stars, snow, sin-city-style blood splatter...) by putting a teeny dab of paint on the damp bristles and flicking with your thumb.

    As for other techniques, I'd say it looks like sumi-e ink washes with a bit of "dry brush" (ie...using a brush with low ink to create a gritty texture).
    thank you so much.. you guys are really an amazing help.. Ill check out some gouche to replace the white ink.. Are all other colored India Inks the same way? should I avoid them? I asked in another thread about shinkawas colored pieces and A few people stated that he uses pentel brush pens for his color.. heres some colored pieces maybe you could decipher whats being used.. It has a very watercolor type look, could even be digital I really cant tell. Im a little confused about the brush pens though.. do they have an actual brush on the tip or is it a brush shaped soft marker tip that feels brush like? heres the pics:

    Attached Images Attached Images        
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    2,714
    Thanks
    373
    Thanked 439 Times in 170 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Those are all digital, Painter I think. Since you got your inks I'd say, time to stop thinking about the materials and just get some practice under way. You can use this kind of ink, that kind of ink, this kind of brush, that kind of brush etc etc. - but you'll have to put down marks on paper and see what it does and doesn't do and learn how to work with each materials particular limitations and potential.. The attention to actual drawing will be infinitely more important.

    Have fun.

    tensai


    check the Tensai Tokyo Sketch Thread (Sketchbook)

    check the Tensai Cityscapes Thread (Finally Finished)



    Quote Originally Posted by strych9ine
    Fuck backgrounds, who needs em.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by tensai View Post
    Those are all digital, Painter I think. Since you got your inks I'd say, time to stop thinking about the materials and just get some practice under way. You can use this kind of ink, that kind of ink, this kind of brush, that kind of brush etc etc. - but you'll have to put down marks on paper and see what it does and doesn't do and learn how to work with each materials particular limitations and potential.. The attention to actual drawing will be infinitely more important.

    Have fun.

    Ya im actually using the ink already I was just curious about the mediums thats all. I had a feeling it was digital but since someone mentioned pentel brush pens i thought it could be those.. due to the watercolor look.. thankss for replying

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southeast coast, USA
    Posts
    2,794
    Thanks
    511
    Thanked 505 Times in 341 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I agree with tensai. The perfect shape of the brush (from start to tail of the stroke), the manipulated ink color in the second piece, the lasso + gradiant in the third, and the thin light "airbrush" over darks...all obviously digital.

    Brush markers/pens have a softer tip on them, but they aren't a sub for real brush. You can manipulate the water-based type to look like watercolor if you have a wet brush...but you might as well use paint.

    "India" ink is specifically black. Other colors (including white) are just "ink." They behave in the manner of sumi-e...good for washes and relatively bright. Of course they are transparent, so you can't use them over black ink and shouldn't use them too heavily to color non-waterproof lineart.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    thanks miranda.. I see what your saying.. The reason I thought they might not be digital is some of the black lines.. All of the blacks espiecially the outline in #2 have a very natural feel to them.. I thought they looked like ink.. Is it possible the black was inked and scanned in? I just cant help but think the black strokes arent digital.. maybe im wrong

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  14. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,211
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,679 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by biggjoee5790 View Post
    thanks miranda.. I see what your saying.. The reason I thought they might not be digital is some of the black lines.. All of the blacks espiecially the outline in #2 have a very natural feel to them.. I thought they looked like ink.. Is it possible the black was inked and scanned in? I just cant help but think the black strokes arent digital.. maybe im wrong
    You're probably right.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    2,714
    Thanks
    373
    Thanked 439 Times in 170 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirana View Post
    Brush markers/pens have a softer tip on them, but they aren't a sub for real brush. You can manipulate the water-based type to look like watercolor if you have a wet brush...but you might as well use paint.
    word...

    tensai


    check the Tensai Tokyo Sketch Thread (Sketchbook)

    check the Tensai Cityscapes Thread (Finally Finished)



    Quote Originally Posted by strych9ine
    Fuck backgrounds, who needs em.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southeast coast, USA
    Posts
    2,794
    Thanks
    511
    Thanked 505 Times in 341 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by biggjoee5790 View Post
    Is it possible the black was inked and scanned in?
    Absolutely the lineart is sumi-e/comic ink. You'll note he used the same "abused" two-line brush in the very first image and second image you posted. Traditional inks are faster to do and have better variety in texture, IMO.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirana View Post
    Absolutely the lineart is sumi-e/comic ink. You'll note he used the same "abused" two-line brush in the very first image and second image you posted. Traditional inks are faster to do and have better variety in texture, IMO.
    Thanks mirana.. That makes sense.. Just what I thought.. Well I painted with my ink last night and I really like it but its definetely difficult. The ink reacts very differently than I originally thought it would. I didn't realize for instance that if you put a very opaque mark down, you could dilute it with water directly on the paper. I thought it would be more permanent like a marker buts its not. I think that's awesome because I cdont really have to dilute the ink on a pallete very much.. I can just paint quite opaquely and then dip a brush in water and paint right over my stroke in only water.. Creating various greys. Well its definetely gonna take a lot of practice but I like it

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  18. #17
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    900
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 205 Times in 111 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    "India" ink is created with very fine particulate (lamp black to be exact... aka soot) suspended in medium. Therefore as Mirana said, it is by definition black. Good india gives you the most uniform/opaque black of anything I've found. Once it dries, it's quite impervious to water.

    Other kinds of inks are created with a variety of dyes which simulate black. "Fount" india is also created with liquid dye. When fountain pens were very popular, new kinds of ink were developed because the fine particulate in true india clogs fountain pens. BTW never use india ink in rapidographs either. The interesting thing about dye-based inks, is they may or may not be waterproof. If they're not waterproof, mixing with water will give you a lot of funky effects, as the dyes separate into their component colors.

    "Fount" inks were specifically developed for fountain pens and they may not be truly black. You'll find a lot of "black" inks separate into a variety of blues and browns when mixed with water. Fun to experiment with.

    There are a number of opaque whites on the market, sometimes called "graphic white". I've never had much luck with them and usually end up using white gouache or acrylic paint for white effects.

    As for colored inks, if water-solubility isn't an issue for you, you might want to look at liquid watercolors. They're often called "radiant" watercolors, and usually come in little bottles. Really vibrant, intense colors!

    I tell anyone that cares to listen... if you really like this medium, you need to get a copy of JA Smith's "The Pen and Ink Book".

    "Change is a virtue my friend... if you want to escape, all you have to do is make up your mind."
    John Cale / Bob Neuwirth


    Here be SKETCHIES...

    www.ccthrom.com
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to CCThrom For This Useful Post:


  20. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks a lot for that advice man. I'm definetely intersted in ink and watercolor so ill check out that book for sure

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  21. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 225 Times in 153 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    For me the best black India inks are Pelikan Drawing Ink, Dr Ph Martin's Black Star, or Speedball Super Black. Higgins Black Magic is not as dark.

    Sometimes Chinese or India ink are the same thing, for example Pelikan's is also labeled "encre de Chine." India ink typically is made using shellac which makes it waterproof. If what you have isn't water-proof, then I wouldn't consider it India ink, but it is a rather vague name description.

    The opaque whites (aka "bleed-proof) that I've seen are water-proof, but white gouache would not be. You might also try acrylic paint as long as it's not too thick.

    I like the Yatsutomo liquid sumi-e ink to use for washes since it tends to be smoother than the India inks I have, but not water-proof.

    David B. Clemons
    Website
    Blog
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  22. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks for the ink info.. I have sanford higgins ink.. If that helps any. Its mixing quite well with water and it blends nicely.. I'm loving the ink more when pure than when washing with it.. That opaque black is really nice for shadow.. I might try some comic type outlines as well even though its not exactly my style

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


    MY SKETCHBOOK!
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  23. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Oviedo, Asturias, Spain
    Posts
    179
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    About those color pieces:

    Who told you about Pentel Brush Pen was right, he states so in various interviews. That's what he uses to draw. There's an interview on konami website where he states he uses Pentel Brush Pen for drawing and color is all digital, photoshop mostly.

    I think this is it
    http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs2/art/index.html

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  24. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Hmm that's intersesting.. The pic with the white correction ink does say that he used china ink and went over it various times.. But I can definetely tell the difference between the blacks in that pic and the blacks in other works. The other pics such as that close up of the ninja do look like a brush pen. I guess he uses brush pen for pieces he colors and ink for completely traditional pieces

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


    MY SKETCHBOOK!
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  25. #23
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    900
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 205 Times in 111 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Higgins Black Magic is not as dark.
    I've never liked Higgins or Speedball inks for this reason... right now PH Martin's Black Star is my favorite too. Pelican "A" and Windsor/Newton india also good. I find acrylic inks to be uniform and dark as well, and they stick pretty nicely to vellum.

    "Change is a virtue my friend... if you want to escape, all you have to do is make up your mind."
    John Cale / Bob Neuwirth


    Here be SKETCHIES...

    www.ccthrom.com
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  26. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 225 Times in 153 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Faber Castell Pitt Pen markers are made with genuine India ink, by the way. There's a version with a felt brush tip also, and pigmented color. While they certainly don't replace a real brush, they can be useful.

    I have (make that "had" - threw it away) an old Pentel brush pen, and I don't know what kind of ink they use, plus the brush point is crap, in my opinon. Maybe they've improved it some.

    David B. Clemons
    Website
    Blog
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  27. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fallingwater
    Posts
    5,109
    Thanks
    1,527
    Thanked 5,189 Times in 1,722 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I use Daler Rowley's Pro White, which is the closest I've ever seen to a white opaque "ink" in terms of coverage. If you get just the right consistency, it can be like using white strokes in photoshop to cover black areas.

    You can also use various kinds of white pencils, chalks, pastels, wax pencils, and even a razor blade, sandpaper, or an electric eraser to get white effects on top of black ink.

    kev

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  28. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,012
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 181 Times in 158 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Favila View Post
    About those color pieces:

    Who told you about Pentel Brush Pen was right, he states so in various interviews. That's what he uses to draw. There's an interview on konami website where he states he uses Pentel Brush Pen for drawing and color is all digital, photoshop mostly.

    I think this is it
    http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs2/art/index.html

    awesome interview thank you so much for posting it. It answered many of my questions. Im gonna pick up a black brush pen and a gray to see how I like it.. Even if its close to a real brush thats good enough.. just for the fact that I can take them to school or on the bus, something i obviously cant do with ink and a brush

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


    MY SKETCHBOOK!
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

Members who have read this thread: 2

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside
Register

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
The Art Department
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook