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  1. #1
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    Just in case you care about free speech...

    "Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.
    This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.
    Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.
    We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high."
    At least Icarus tried!


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  3. #2
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    "Those who are easily offended should be. And often." -G. Barnett

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    Fear and violence work while ideals don't. Who would've guessed.

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    http://www.3d.com

    I'm just wondering why it defaults to that URL when I type in:

    h t t p : / / w w w . g n o m o n 3 d . com ?

    Freedom of speech?
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  8. #5
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    ummmm, wanna give us some backstory so I know wtf youre talking about?

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    aesir: It's about a video platform like YouTube or something, where you could until lately watch a dutch movie called Fitna, which is – from what I have read – a very controversial because downright provoking movie about interpretations of the Koran by Islamic fundamentalists (i.E. side-by-side quoting of Koran Suras and pictures of Taliban, Al-Qaeda outrages and the like).

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    Because of this the Dutch guy who made Fitna (crappy anti muslim propoganda) gets a lot more publicity than he ever would have otherwise.

    I'm all for it being able to be seen... but its still shite.

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    wassermelone, since you haven't seen it, whose opinion are you repeating here?

    Unless of course you can't actually tell the difference between being anti-muslim and being anti-muslim extremist.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  12. #9
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    I smell another 5+ page thread. I don't think freedom of speech isn't in any harm by the removal of this video. Out of the thousands of videos taken down on youtube a day theres not much outrage but someone takes down a controversial video and the internet justice league of free speech jump on it. Freedom of speech is in no more harm right now than it is any other day. This is another "The sky is falling" threads.

    The guy who made the movie's freedoms are not worth the possible loss of life of others. If you want to put your neck on the line and poke a bunch of religious extremist fine, host your views/media yourself don't put other people at risk.
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    it depends on how banned it is
    is it merely off Liveleak.com? ,it is in their F.A.Q. , that any media potentially damaging to the site will be removed... giving them a pretty wide latitude.

    a national ban, however, is another thing altogether. and i think i just found it online.

  14. #11
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    Buck Weisel, what you don't understand about freedom could fill a library. A girl who wears sexy clothes does not deserve to be raped. When you say something against a religion, you should not "deserve what you get". That's bullshit and you need to get your head out of your ass and demand protection for unpopular speech, speech you hate even.

    I don't even give a damn about the film. The issue is that they were threatened. And they were sufficiently worried to remove the film from their server. If the government cannot protect the free speech of its citizens against thugs, there is no free speech. That means thugs get to be the censors for what you and I hear, and thus what thoughts we are allowed to think. You want the Muslim Brotherhood or Saudi Arabian Wahhabiists calling the shots in this world, let's all keep up the chicken shit behavior and pretend nothing's wrong.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  16. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Buck Weisel, what you don't understand about freedom could fill a library. A girl who wears sexy clothes does not deserve to be raped. When you say something against a religion, you should not "deserve what you get". That's bullshit and you need to get your head out of your ass and demand protection for unpopular speech, speech you hate even.

    I don't even give a damn about the film. The issue is that they were threatened. And they were sufficiently worried to remove the film from their server. If the government cannot protect the free speech of its citizens against thugs, there is no free speech. That means thugs get to be the censors for what you and I hear, and thus what thoughts we are allowed to think. You want the Muslim Brotherhood or Saudi Arabian Wahhabiists calling the shots in this world, let's all keep up the chicken shit behavior and pretend nothing's wrong.
    BuckWeisel is one word. "Im not taking a bullet for your views, opinions, videos or cartoons. Therefore im not hosting your shit." A pretty simple concept to grasp. My point is you shouldn't put other people in harms way for your views. And if your main idea was that the government should protect people so that they don't feel threatened for posting these kind of things, then maybe you should make that clear from the first post instead of posting some random paragraph and jumping down everyone's throat for asking questions. You take responsibility for your words and opinions. Don't cop out and hide behind a flag or a website. You want to say something sound off like you got a pair and deal with it yourself. My tax dollars would be better spent doing something useful than protecting a bunch of loud mouthed "intellectuals" who think that people care what they think.

    Usually you're pretty level-headed when talking about things, but you need to lay off the coffee or go get some sleep because I had to double check your user name, thought it might have said "light"

    I have no problem with the video, maybe you should read what the fuck I said before you go all righteous on me you pretentious prick. Im all for saying what you want. "Art should cause arguments, not settle them" Im very supportive of that idea. Please, everyone go paint your views and post them no matter who it pisses off.

    And if it sounds like I contradicted myself anywhere in this post, you're stupid (lol freedom of speech)
    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

  17. #13
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    what the fuck just happened....lets keep it civil ladies....
    or maybe not ....
    Man yknow , freedom of speech clearly goes hand in hand with respecting other peoples opinion....Atleast I think so..thats clearly not happening here.....
    About the site taking off the video .....I think they did right...in a way taht why should they come in harms way for someone elses doing....but yeah governments should step and do something about this.. you just cant allow these fucking terrorists to make the rules......
    oh wait but why should they step in, who wants their asses getting burnt in other peoples fire ..only a fucking ediot would do that.
    Its the other way round here in India if you go against something thats remotely hindu, an extremist hindu groups take you to ask and the government stays a silent watcher.....
    And on standing for freedom .....what about about standing up for people in Tibet.....I am clearly going off topic here but hey wtf...
    (oh btw I think the governments these days are from the people , vy the peple,for themselves)

    Even if one is ready to die for freedom, but what change would that make?

  18. #14
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    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410

    google still has it for those interested. It is definitely NSFW.
    My work: [link]

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    Man yknow , freedom of speech clearly goes hand in hand with respecting other peoples opinion....Atleast I think so..thats clearly not happening here.....
    Surely this should not happen at the expense of you own opinions though? Not arguing, on any subject, simply because it is not 'respectable' to question some authority or person is something that should not happen. Any religion or subject or group or whatever that cannot stand up to open criticism without resorting to violence or threat of is not one worthy of belief.

    I think they were right to take the video off when they did, but the important thing is that they shouldn't have had to. There must always be some form of opposition towards any power, lest it get 'carried away' with itself. Something is wrong with a religion when rather than just providing a counter-argument to any opposition, it deems it necessary to to get rid of it outright through the use of violence and threats.

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    The fact that Liveleak felt forced to remove the video due to threats of violence speaks volumes about its validity. In other news, Youtube has been disgracefully removing trailers for the film as well.

    'No, we're not murderous fanatics, and we'll kill you if you say we are!'

    You can look at the holy books for any of the Abrahamic religions and find exhortations to atrocities, but we in the West have come to cherry-pick our religions these days (to some extent), keeping what we like and ignoring the rest. Much of the Islamic world is rather more hardcore, but, by their very nature of being fundamentalists, they're spot-on as to their interpretations of those texts. It's delusional to write off the fanatics as fringe elements; they may or may not be a minority, but there are over a billion Muslims in the world and that supposed minority apparently is not small.

  21. #17
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
    Kristallnacht

    Basically, when you encourage intolerance you let the thugs run the world, but then again you have to be intolerant of thugs.

    Every time a society gets dominated by authoritarianism it explodes into radicalism. Bolshevik Revolt, French Revolution even the counter culture of the 1960's.

    Now we seem to be in a day in age that seems to say, my point of view is right, and if you disagree I'll kill you or ruin your life.....what the fuck is that?....but the thing is we seem to be swinging towards Authoritarianism....not Radicalism.

    1960's was about if you disagree with me, why kill me or ruin my life?
    People seem to be getting less and less altruistic and more militant in their views?
    Last edited by NoSeRider; March 29th, 2008 at 07:26 AM.
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  22. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    My point is you shouldn't put other people in harms way for your views.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about... this is a recipe for tyranny. You should be able to hold any view you want without having to pick up a gun. That's called a civilization. The reason you deserve to be barked at is because of what happened to the Armenians and the Jews and "enemies of the people" in the Soviet Union, dissidents in Cuba, and Civil Rights advocates in the last century. If you think that can't happen again, or that history, in fact, isn't repeating itself right now, like in the Sudan for instance, I would recommend, a la Clockwork Orange, that you open your eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    My tax dollars would be better spent doing something useful than protecting a bunch of loud mouthed "intellectuals" who think that people care what they think.
    If people didn't care what they thought, there wouldn't be death threats against them. You might want to pay attention to people who get murdered for their views. It's a pretty good indication that something's up in the world. Your disinterest in protecting dissent says a lot about you.

    The rest of your insults aren't worth responding to. We live in an age of Google after all. The purpose of this thread is quite plain.

    And I am deeply sorry that I separated your name.
    Last edited by kev ferrara; March 29th, 2008 at 08:58 AM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  24. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    wassermelone, since you haven't seen it, whose opinion are you repeating here?

    Unless of course you can't actually tell the difference between being anti-muslim and being anti-muslim extremist.
    What the fuck?

    He doesn't agree with the film, he CAN'T have seen it! I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

    No, I know the difference between anti-muslim extremists and anti-muslim. The film makes no such distinction.

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    Appeasement...Last time this was popular in Europe Hitler was in power. If I remember correctly, it also didn't work too well. But hey, you can't blame someone for wanting to live.

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    I don't get it. I understand that 'normal' muslims, as opposed to extremist muslims would react to such a movie as it demonizes their entire religion. But the extremist muslims, that read the hateful verses and act upon them, and are proud of their deeds, they get all upset and murderous about a movie showcasing their succes in terrorizing the planet!

    Something is definately up in the world.

    But I understand LiveLeak. I would've done the same.

  27. #22
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    Wassermelone,

    My assumption was, anybody who would see the film would understand what is implicit. That extremists are the ones that take holy books at the letter. The whole movie is about what happens when the letter of the Koran is followed. It is not about Muslims in general, which would include those who are secularized or moderate, (except insofar as their holy book is a slippery slope that beckons toward totalitarianism). Given this point, your post berating the film as Shite seemed a tad too pat. So I assumed you were pre-disposed to dismiss it, rather than see it. My apologies for assuming the latter.

    Regarding your implicit claim that the film is pure propaganda, I would say that there are certain facts that must have faces shoved toward them again and again in order to generate political force. Racism is one. Religious Extremism is another. If facts have propagandistic value, so be it.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  28. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by serpian
    that read the hateful verses and act upon them
    there are no hateful verses.... just hateful people


    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara
    This is exactly what I'm talking about... this is a recipe for tyranny. You should be able to hold any view you want without having to pick up a gun. That's called a civilization. The reason you deserve to be barked at is because of what happened to the Armenians and the Jews and "enemies of the people" in the Soviet Union, dissidents in Cuba, and Civil Rights advocates in the last century. If you think that can't happen again, or that history, in fact, isn't repeating itself right now, like in the Sudan for instance, I would recommend, a la Clockwork Orange, that you open your eyes.
    Hmm quite true..... but
    You should be able to hold any view you want without having to pick up a gun
    tell that to those terrorists....

    how do yo stop them??? it is a fact that there are countries sponsoring them and the masses in those and other countries support them....

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    I don't know what everyones so worked up about. it merely showed news-footage, newspaper reports and stuff from the Koran.

    But the stuff from the koran is ripped out of the context, wich was about a battle against the jews. but than again, lot of Muslims still think that any unbeleaver should be burned, and slaughtered like a pig.

    One thing i'm worried about now is the Dutch society. This movie can work as a splitter between 'The Dutch' and 'The Muslims'. We already have that, but that will make it much worse.

    The Movie is generalising. Maybe everyone's like that in the Middle east (who knows) but here in Holland, you have those kind of people. but there are still Respectfull and hard working, etc. Muslims here. But i think many ppl will fail to see that point, because they are just cattle and will just generalise it.


    on a side note, the Maker of the movie (Geert wilders) is the leader of a political party, wich is named 'Party for Freedom'. But they wanted to bann the Koran from Holland. Pretty hypocritical rly.

    Just in case you care about free speech...
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    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/

    I'd watch PBS Frontline. They go over this ad nauseam.

    You'll even see vindictive behavior in the White House.

    I just think people are over rated chimpanzees.

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  32. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    there are no hateful verses.... just hateful people
    This is a different situation than guns. Ideology, especially fundamentalist ideology, can change people because it can warp their minds. Fundamentalist ideology causes both hatred and self-hatred and fosters martyrdom fantasies... and thus normalizes unspeakable existential acts. Words can cause hatred and insanity. Indoctrination is a serious problem. Guns don't change people.


    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    how do you stop them??? it is a fact that there are countries sponsoring them and the masses in those and other countries support them....
    Denial is the first hurdle to be overcome. Denial is the opiate of the masses. People want to be ignorant of threats because living in fear is scary and doing something about it is even scarier. That's why they attack the messenger. People don't like to be woken up from their warm slumber.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kettino View Post
    I don't know what everyones so worked up about. it merely showed news-footage, newspaper reports and stuff from the Koran.
    I'm worked up about the fact that dissent against a religion is being silenced by threats of violence. This is a fundamental offense against hundreds of years of western enlightenment thought which I hold essential to the continuation of our civilization.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I'm worked up about the fact that dissent against a religion is being silenced by threats of violence. This is a fundamental offense against hundreds of years of western enlightenment thought which I hold essential to the continuation of our civilization.
    with everyone i ment 'those who QQ about the film being there'.

    It is disturbing that people dont talk because they are afraid of the consecuenses. if we are ruled by fear, there will be no hope.

    (ps, sorry for my horrible spelling).
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    I expected a bit more of the fitna movie after all the media hype that happened over here. It's quite a turndown actually

    *me puts away the popcorn again*

    edit: on the freedom of speech part, an islamic tv-show actually offered to broadcast the movie for wilders and have a discussion with him before and after the movie but he turned that down. So I think it is wrong to just blame a whole religion because a small percentage is offended by such a thing.
    Last edited by D.Labruyere; March 29th, 2008 at 01:29 PM.

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    kev your a smart guy and your hearts in the right place but real freedom isnt about the rules allowing you to do what you want, real freedom is about doing what you want anyways.
    not sure how to add my sketchbook as a link but heres wher eits at yo
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