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Hey guys, just wanted to get something off my chest. I just graduated from Ringling back in May with a degree in Illustration and it amazes me how many people go..."whats an illustrator". Only a few short decades ago an Illustrator was the talk of the town, every one knew who Norman Rockwell was, or Gibson and his Gibson Girls, or other famous illustrators, they were up there with rockstars and movie stars. Now, its hard to find someone who could name one Illustrator they know...one person I know said no one illustrates any more as they held a copy of Harry Potter with a cover by Mary Gran Prix. I just find it frustrating that a profession where it takes true TALENT and drive to succeed, is so underrated. Anyone else feel like this??? Thanks for listening
Mary GrandPre. Just to ironically drive your point home even further.
LOL...I knew i was gonna spell her name wrong
that is so damn true! It seems like the more skill a creative vocation takes, the less respected and known it is! lets all go on a killing spree!!!!!! bllllaarrrrrggggg!!!!!!!!!
art is fun and addictive. like coffee. I like coffee too.
yes, the general public is generally ignorant when it comes to illustration. A teacher at my school asked if anybody was into illustration and I raised my hand people just looked at me.
but I'm a rockstar so I don't care :rock: Party like a rockstar, kick a little ass!!
Wanted: 30 chinamen and a zeppelin for an elaborate practical joke... can you help?
play like an allstar, party like a rock star and hammer like a porn star - norman rockwell....
i just want my work to be well known, i don't want to be a superstar. i don't mind that so much. the problem is with the money.... people don't pay for hardwork and real talent like they should. well, not enough i mean.
ordinary people don't get that you can draw... two examples:
1) On a previous portfolio I added small stories to each pic, apr. 6 sentences. When I showed it to some people (staff at work, I used to work with mentally challenged people) they asked: Did you write that? (mmh, there also this hardwork, almost A4 friggin image covering the whole page ...did I write that...well yes)
2) yesterday...i showed one of my favourite pics to my little sister (about 10 y.o), and said; look at this picture I've done! what do u think?
And she said:
Oh are u gonna draw that? (me) No, I just made it!
(sis) Oh, you scanned it! (me) No, I just made it!
I don't think anyone think U can make anything yourself thes days. If u can't buy it in a package at the store...don't exist
I'm ranting. Hope anyone enjoyed it !
My work as a tattooer www.gallontattoos.wordpress.com
True, most people don't know what an illustrator is. Most people don't know what a lot of things are. Most people are idiots.
Tell 'em you're an artist.
Glad to hear people feel the way I do. Just to go along with the subject i've started...does anyone else get tired of the starving artist jokes???,
i'm tired of all artists considered poor.
In the icelandic school system, they burn into your head... "nobody can make a living of art or music" When you're told something often enough you'll start to believe it.
The general public in iceland thinks that if you're an artist you just dropped out of high school and started doing drugs
Wanted: 30 chinamen and a zeppelin for an elaborate practical joke... can you help?
Here are a few guys who are not to be for gotten.
"Why go around making stuff if you can rip it or steal it? "
seems to be the way it is done in most professions today. In art it's just a lot harder but in many once respectable jobs e.g. accountancy) it's no longer about the content but only about the way people get to view it. Marketing and money rule, and hard work and discipline, and originality, are seen as ridiculously difficult ways of attaining a goal.
Power is nothing without intelligence.
It may be because people just don't know the exact illustration these days. Perhaps it never crosses their mind that illustration is a very broad field.
yeah, some of the fine art teachers at my school dont even consider illustrators artists.
I showed my foundation drawing teacher one of the spectrum books, beautiful illustrations ART ITS ART...and she said, those are nicely rendered images but something to think about, are they really ART. Because to me it seems like its just a pretty rendering.
As a mans power and knowledge grows so the paths he may choose lessen more and more until he can choose only and whole what he must do.
time to follow the trend: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...14#post1052814
oh and heres a college buddy of mine:
Hah! Avetice, that would have gotten me incredible steamed! I'd have retored "You should think about fine art. Is a random arrangement of squiggles and splatters really ART? Because it seems to me that just takes no skill." :hothead:
Now that's what you call an answer!Originally posted by Velo
Hah! "You should think about fine art. Is a random arrangement of squiggles and splatters really ART? Because it seems to me that just takes no skill."
There is nothing wrong with using a photo to help you see things.
No one complains about life drawing,
so take a photo.
its easy, and will improve your piece greatly."
Haha, art is art. That teahcer would probably be the type that would sneer at Bateman's wildlife paintings that are photographic. What I don't like all that much is a toilet seat painted black, put against a white background, shot with a red paint ball 6 times and titled "6 bowls of chili is ubar constepation". It speaks to me alright, speaks to me right into the ground!
Avetice... wow, I would have pretty much bitten of her windpipe if she'd have said that to me.
But I'm all for fine art. I like expressing myself just through composition and slapping some paint on... in the right places.
I've also been doing these unrealistic characters: One day, I will make a series out of them, paintings and sculpts... and get freaking loaded with cash!
No, but if something awakes feelings within me (good or bad), I will call it art. And for instance "Composition" by Pollock, is really hypnotizing in a good way. I've just recently begun to appreciate more than rendering skills. How I express myself through my art is becoming more and more important to me.Is a random arrangement of squiggles and splatters really ART? Because it seems to me that just takes no skill
Don't get me wrong, I haven't turned into some Modern art waverider that's want's to express himself through a single line. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder So keep your eyes and minds open
Wanted: 30 chinamen and a zeppelin for an elaborate practical joke... can you help?
Avetice - good point there.
I felt like tossing some ideas around:
Somehow it seems that the fineart community and the illustration community has gotten further apart from eachother. I knew my teachers had a bad eye towards illustration also. Illustration is often taken in the same sentence as children-illustration, all the worse... Blend in some comics into the mix and there is something the artcommunity can really frawn upon.
Thismay all be because many artschools no longer promote drtawing and knowledge of drawing, but rather the use of feelings and ideas onto canvas, or even no canvas at all, but installations and happenings.
But maybe the greatest threat is photography? Most magazines has photos as illustrations nowadays?
hey frank, looks like you've spawned quite a discussion...
This little definition of art dilemma is nothing new... just something we have to deal with.
the same thing is happening with this "wonderful" little technology they call mo cap in contrast to animation...
some people just can't understand why animators hate it
as magazine execs can't understand why an illustration would be better.. just comes down to the illusion that time and money is saved... and those are the important things right?
This whole thread is similar to a full quarter of philosophy I had to take at art school. The professor (who was a poet) would always ask a basic question before the 2-hour bickering session started: "What's the difference between 'art' and 'craft'?" The class kicked arse and has never really left my mind when I am working. I definetly came away with a strong opinion about my own work.
PT Osborne, your so right. I graduated with dreams of being the next big animator in the next big project. I worked with a company for 3 years whose whole process was more "non-art." I (reluctanly) got certified in a motion capture system with that company, which cut timelines dramatically in half, but the feeling was less than art, and more towards "craft." Left me kinda empty, and since then, I haven't really touched animation, unless it was for myself.
This is no different to "illustration being art." Nobody even considers any kind of 3d art as art, except for artists (even some of us refuse to believe it.).
Its aggrevating, but then, I try to use that lack of acceptance to push myself and my art further. Especially now that I am raising a family, I have even less time create. When I do try to make a piece of art (or at least, what I believe to be art), even if I didn't succed to create what I envisioned, I try to take something from it and apply it to the next project.
This may be the struggle artist have had, and will always have. Hey, we are artists, right? We will always be considered to be different from "the rest."
*-- steps down from soapbox, merges with the rest of the corporate whores into oblivion---**
i actually got paid to create a 3d model of human poo once. well actualy, i am on my (t)3rd (lol, i kill myself...) iteration, so like i got paid 3x. I should just go ahead and create some reference. this itshay is kiling me...
Gotta say, I completely agree with this thread! Everything I've been wanting to scream from rooftops for a while now.
I'm doing my final year of art school right now, and ended up talking to an aunt that moved away a few years ago (before I started)...explained how I've had some late nights just due to the sheer amount of work and time it takes to make things look good for my grad portfolio (anyone who's tried hand-done animation, for example, knows it takes 30 drawings per second...that's a lot of drawings for a 20-30 second animation).
My aunt listens for a bit, and then tells me that I obviously procrastinate and can't manage my time. Then spouted a few starving artist jokes.
I almost bit the phone in half.
Average people have NO CONCEPT of how much work, time, and possibly blood of newborns goes into the illustrations and concept art without which the entertainment industry probably wouldn't exist.
@Johannes: I don't blame photography so much as the people who publish material and don't realize that what a photo does and what an illustration does are two completely different things. Frankly, other than Anne Liebowitz, I think most average people probably can't name any famous photographers, either.
@Aventice: I would've punched her in the box (being a girl, I'm allowed). Just because its nicely rendered doesn't mean that the concept and ideas in the work haven't been as deeply considered as some fine art piece in a gallery...and frankly, I remember some of my foundation year classes where "artists" would literally create something right before class, spout some bullshit, and get away with it even though the piece was absolute crap that they hadn't thought out at all. Just cause you SAY it communicates some random idea doesn't mean it actually communicates with the viewer...ugh. Xp
True story: one of my teachers had an illustration stolen by Hewlett-Packard once. They just flipped the image and used it in an ad...then had the bad luck of sending the ad to his rep. Saddest thing is when a company that can obviously afford to pay an illustrator does something like that.
All Her Engines sketch blog: http://mariellavee.blogspot.com
"I'd help a dalmatian if it was on fire: 'Roll over, boy! Roll over for your life!' "
These "average people" you're talking about build or clean houses, grow or cook your food, repair your car, transfer your cheques and generally do all the things you think are too boring to bother with. Of course they have no clue what it takes to make all these funny pictures that are nice to look at. And why should they?
Some perspective would be nice to have in your situation, considering that it's these people that your salary will come from once you find your dream job.
Also: Necro-threadding at it's best. SIX (!!!) years!
My point is: Why do you care what other people think of your time management and your learning curve? If your time/outcome-ratio pays your bills at the end of the month, you're fine and shouldn't have to care what others think about it. If it doesn't, there IS something wrong with your ratio. Everyone in the creative field knows that working late can be normal some times. If you work late constantly (like, 3 in the morning for weeks) and you're unable to pay the rent, you're not billing enough or you're too slow, or your project is too big for you to handle alone.
Calling people who care for (and get) their time off "average" is just another way of whining about your time management. If you think it's worth it, there should be no reason to complain. Of course animation is a tough job that requires good timing, I don't doubt that.
Just feel good about what you create at work and no one calling you a bum will be able to hurt your feelings. They're jealous at you being the drawing kid anyway, so why not grant them the snobbery?
Very interessting thread.
I am at the moment reading the book "statusanxiety" (2004) by Alain de Botton, recommend it, I strongle feel a connection with it, as a person that doesnt really have any status in society, yet tries to comment on it. In there he (de Botton) says that art is a comment on life or living, which seems a very good point for me.
Artists and comedians have always had sort of an outside view on the world and ruling systems, and being able to comment them in a fairly safe way, even if not always. In a totalitarian stat, artists is almost always the first to be hunted down.
Problem is that nobody wants to pay for that comment. Instead it seems they want decorative images that complements their curtains or the sofa in the home. Instead of buying a fresh canvas from the local artist, they go to the postersellershop and buy a nice fine-art poster for say $80 + frame another another $80.
Also Ive heard size is a big matter, not to big, not to small size is important.
Another thing that bugs me a little is the use of "art" in commercials, it seems as as fast as the art can be used as a commercial poster, it gets "real" value. But to me it is rather the opposite - art cannot be commercial, because then it cannot comment the life and society freely?
On the other hand, in Japan, Ive heard that manga artists really are rockstars, could anyone confirm that?
As far as "regular folks" debate goes, I think that anyone that can make a living these poverty-stricken days on anything is pretty lucky, and anyone who can maka a living on something they really enjoy is extremely fortunate.
. . . F I G H T - T H E - B O R E D O M . . .
I can't really blame people for not knowing about art. They probably know just as much about science, but ah well.
I still kind of think it's weird when people tell me they know someone who likes art, as if it can't vary between people.
Also, please consider the difference between art and illustration. I know it's normal in english to talk about "art" when you mean illustration (in Germany, you wouldn't usually call an illustrator a "Künstler" if you're not aiming at being snippy), something that has caused me headaches for years before recognizing that it's normal to speak of "artists" in anglo-saxon countries. There's a huge leap from illustrating fantasyful Magic cards to painting something like Menzel's Iron Rolling Mill (or de Goya's Third of May 1808 for that matter). Art is often about big-schemed social-criticism, which has a naturally higher value than illustrating, or animating, or drawing dragons.
On the other hand, if the work you pull off is great art, maybe your aunt just doesn't get it. Can be, most people know nothing about that kind of art either.
Agreed, that's why I like being at school or any environment where there're a lot of knowledgeable artists. Me telling my family that I am a cartoonist, either gets replies like "so you want to work for Disney?" or I'd just be cut off with a "when are you going to make my painting?!" ... for free might I add, because even though we dont really talk much, having the same genes should get them a free ride.