Chow 110 :: VOTING:: Historical Gender Bender - Page 3
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Thread: Chow 110 :: VOTING:: Historical Gender Bender

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsujni View Post
    As for my point about the action of the subject, is not Napoleon taking a piss as valid as Napoleon at Notre Dame?
    Isn't it still Napoleon? This was in relation to your question as to why I didn't do another of Judith's roles.
    as you two keep talking about Napoleon, I cannot help but feeling inplicated in this little argument.

    first thing I have learn or will ever remember about illustration, is that it is a game between originality and ready made ideas. As an illustrator you have to make yourself readable. You cannot just do an illustration and blame the other for not understanding you. You have to accept to uses stereotypes and be concise.
    I mean: is Napoleon known for his pissing? non, but, put a napoleon hat to a chair and put its arm in it's coat (if you manage to find one ) and everyone will know who we are talking about.
    As an example, if I would have chosen an actress, I would have chosen sarah bernardt for her leg an certainly use the mucha way to represent her.
    In your picture, we don't read the "actor" part because there is no symbolical stage/scene.

    to madhatter just love too much when girls have lots of hair.
    a girl with a pretty haircut doesn't need anything more. Unfortunatly, now, I see a bunch and it makes me laugh. Maybe am I gonna start drawing short hair girls.... or not thax for criticizing, I found everything very constructive (and I read it all).

    markusthebarbarian
    what happens in the shadowy part of your picture is really bautifull and delicate. you should try to find something approaching in the sunny part (it is a bit flat). bring on more shades in the skintones maybe.

    Felicia you had my vote. very original. the way you used the old representing rules is very clever. I really liked it. and It bring a bit of humour in all those very formal portraits.

    chate noire
    very recognizable. love the colors. (personnaly, I would have certainly cut her ear off, but you did without and it's more subtil. Subtility is a very rare talent, you should hang on to it.

    lukavi As I already said it, your work makes me think of yoshitaka Amano's wich I am totally fond of. Maybe the arm seems a bit big and as it's already been said, the space between her breasts is really large. you had my vote.

    madhater you should have chosen a diferent shade for the background or the skin. thes two are to near from one another I think. For the rest, you are certainly without no doubts the more documented person I have (virtually) met(wich make me think, would you give me some advices on places to look for some very precise documentation ?)

    poshspice for any other artist, I would have certainly think that you should have chosen a more feminine outfit, but wasn't Oscar Wild known for his sexual anbiguity? therefore, I find it perfect (maybe a cigarette holder would have bring some extra feminine-dominative-sensuality )

    catatafish I like the colors, you should maybe have used your references a bit more.
    In your ref pictures, the armor was heavily ornated: It's Ceasar, not just a general.

    Wiggers voted for you too, I think you have a great sense of color.
    Of course, the 300 movie helped a lot recognize the character due to the helmet. Very good use of a strong and well known symbol.

    sorry if I didn't comment on everyone or it 's a bit hard to read sometimes.
    Writing in english such long texts is a real challenge.

    To finish,
    to chate noire who said that my Napoleon looked so tall. I have to say that as a 5.15 feets tall girl, almost everybody seems too damn tall for me.

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  3. #62
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    lord_regenschirm is offline Brought up in the ancient arts of mouse-painting :D Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
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    Thanks a lot to all the ones who took the time to write a nice critique!
    Initially I was up to do one for each pic too but after madhatters intellectual outpour I don't dare to do so anymore ...
    At least I can answer your question to the backgroundcolor I chose madhatter: In fact I was searching for a color that would fit to the overall used light-tone on the figure itself. On the other hand I wanted to involve the Union Jack in the background which pure colors would have been standing out too strong against the ones used for Churchill. So I decided to shade it with this (admitted not very sexy) ochre tone you additionally found in the common tone of the british army uniforms of that time. In the end the painting got something of an old poster which led me into the temptation to add this kind of offensive phrase ... (I hope that wasn't the reason for not being chosen )

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    Arthemis IX - Voted because I like the pic. I'd love to see a bit more expression in her face as she looks a bit blank, but the little glimpse of thigh is yummy!

    Felicia - My favourite! She's great! Expression, concept and design, which feels really in keeping with Romanian art of Vlad. Made me laugh too!

    Jpedro - You get a vote for being more contemporary and putting your character in a different world setting. The composition is a bit too 'open' but a smashing idea.

    Molly - Just really enjoyed this presentation of Hitler. You've really caught something without making her actually LOOK like Hitler. Difficult considering you couldn't give her a moustache.

    Chate Noire - Looks like a female Van Gogh! What more can I say. Love the fact you've put her on 'that' chair! Think you could have done more with the lighting, but it still feels 'Van Goghy'.

    Lord Regenschirm
    - Tough looking Churchill! And a difficult one to make appealing, but you pulled it off. Fab expression.

    Graphuji - Love the character, not the bottom of the pose, which is very stiff with the legs, but the top half is really nice, and the leather jacket is excellent.

    Ryuloulou - Wonderful! Captures Napoleon and the inspiration perfectly.

    Oh, I wanted to vote for so many more!

    Right...

    On reading your reply Madhatter106 I am reminded of a 'date' when a young woman, exasperated at her partners finickityness remarked: "You are the most pedantic man I have ever been out with!" Suprised he replied: "I think you'll find I'm the third most pedantic man you have been out with..."

    Heh heh! Yeah I can take it... As for beautifully painted, I dunno about that. Seems pretty rushed to me. I did it in a couple of days at the beginning of the brief and meant to come back to the cloth, but have had a paid job and my LMS piece to do, so it lapsed a bit.

    My main influence here was Radclyffe-Hall, who, if you aren't familiar with, check her out.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radclyffe_Hall

    ...who dressed as a man but was far from being simply a transvestite. You can't criticise me for dressing a woman in mans clothes as the brief was, at its very basic level, just that! I presented Oscar Wilde as a woman dressed in mens clothes, the clothes are adapted to suit my aesthetic inclination, and if I'm being honest to myself, you are being a little unfair to criticise the actual appearance of the material I've dressed him/her in. I'm sure you are correct in pointing out the trim would likely have been black, but as no colour photographs of Wilde exist I used 'artistic license', yes, artistic license. The gold looks nice! And I daresay on occasions he didn't wear his velvet suit... I bow to your fair criticism of the cuffs, which are anachronistic, but were a last minute decision. Wilde displayed a green carnation not a white one. The green carnation is/was used by homosexual men as a method to identify each other. As for the face: yes, she is prettier than the Wilde people are familiar with, but I kept the lips full and the eyes hooded; it was once again an aesthetic and personal choice.

    Forgive me monopolising the thread for a simple 'reposte' but such an exhaustive and incisive crit deserved a suitably exhaustive reply. And hopefully it is obvious my tongue is firmly in my cheek here!

    I would love to do a complete crit of everyones here this week but I just don't think I'll have time... sorreeee... However, Madhatter106, I might find time to do one for you...

    Last edited by Aly Fell; March 26th, 2008 at 11:45 AM. Reason: atroshius spleinlg
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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poshspice View Post
    Arthemis IX On reading your reply Madhatter106 I am reminded of a 'date' when a young woman, exasperated at her partners finickityness remarked: "You are the most pedantic man I have ever been out with!" Suprised he replied: "I think you'll find I'm the third most pedantic man you have been out with..."
    Pedantic is not a bad thing - especially in this project, which was a research project - bold emphasis from a moderator, not myself. If people are constantly striving to get better, eventually you are going to have to get down to fussing and debating over tiny details...this is something I deal with in the costume industry all the time. Imagine spending an entire afternoon looking for the right zipper pulls - yeah, a zipper pull, something that measures less than half an inch and takes up practically zero percent of the screen's space.

    My main influence here was Radclyffe-Hall, who, if you aren't familiar with, check her out.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radclyffe_Hall

    ...who dressed as a man but was far from being simply a transvestite.
    I am being partially flippant when I refer to the Transvestite Trap. I am not saying that everyone made a bunch of transvestites, I'm using it as a label for emphasis of what I think the inherent problem with an approach is. So one might say that you gender-bent Oscar Wilde, through the filter of Radclyffe Hall? Is the final result more Wilde or more Hall? I dunno, I leave that to others to make up their minds about that...

    You can't critisize me for dressing a woman in mans clothes as the brief was, at its very basic level, just that!
    No, the brief at its very basic level was taking a historical figure and transposing their gender. To quote daestwen, "you must take one real historical figure from any period in history (up until 1950), and recreate that person in the opposite gender." It says nothing about needing to put them in womens clothes if they are male, or vice versa. It's the caveat of "you must make them recognizable, as that person, using costume et. al." where I feel so many people said, "well I'll just take their clothes they would have worn for their original sex, and put it on their new sex."

    I presented Oscar Wilde as a woman dressed in mens clothes, the clothes are adapted to suit my aesthetic inclination, and if I'm being honest to myself, you are being a little unfair to criticise the actual appearance of the material I've dressed him/her in...And I daresay on occasions he didn't wear his velvet suit...
    The material looks fine, I just questioned the choice of not using black velvet, which is nearly iconic to Wilde and some members of the Aesthetic Dress Movement; especially since black velvet is so easy on the eyes, so pleasing to "aesthetic inclinations" of many, and pops up in two of the three research photos you submitted of him.

    I bow to your fair criticism of the cuffs, which are anachronistic, but were a last minute decision.
    A tiny detail, to be sure - almost pedantically tiny - - but one that can hinder just as much as help. I guess I thought it especially bizarre, since the remainder of the clothes were menswear.

    Wilde displayed a green carnation not a white one. The green carnation is/was used by homosexual men as a method to identify each other.
    Ah, so it was green - my memory had faded as to that point, I thought they were white. I guess Polari hadn't been invented yet. LOL

    Forgive me monopolising the thread for a simple 'reposte' but such an exhaustive and incisive crit deserved a suitably exhaustive reply. And hopefully it is obvious my tongue is firmly in my cheek here! ...
    My tongue sits in my lower jaw. Though the spirit of all this may be a bit "in cheek," I'm earnest in my appraisals this week for you and everyone else who made it to final burning. "Pedantic" though it may be, I think it's good to really dig in and examine choices and delve into the research and really figure out everything, from the bare bones to the tiniest of hair folicles, because with all of that, you're more likely to make informed choices and better able to defend those choices when you're "called on the carpet" by a superior or colleague. On these boards, people are sticklers for anatomy, yet none are labelled exhaustive or pedantic LOL - can I get away with only three fingers and a thumb on my next figure for CHOW, just because of artistic license? "God is in the details," a smarter person once wrote. However "pedantic" they may be...

    Good luck with your upcoming projects, Posh!

    Last edited by madhatter106; March 26th, 2008 at 12:28 PM. Reason: because I can think faster than 70 wpm...
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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_regenschirm View Post
    Thanks a lot to all the ones who took the time to write a nice critique!
    Initially I was up to do one for each pic too but after madhatters intellectual outpour I don't dare to do so anymore ...
    LOL no go ahead and do one for everyone - just because I went in a nitpicked a bunch of details, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have or express your opinions about the pieces. The more crits the merrier, I say; how else is everyone going to learn from their mistakes or bask in praise?

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    I looked at yours, now you look at mine...sketchbook here

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  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter106 View Post
    Good luck with your upcoming projects, Posh!
    Why, thankyou. Oooh what a palaver! Boner nochy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter106 View Post
    mcmatz - love the idea behind this one - maybe it would be more effective if the female painting him was more in keeping with the Mona Lisa? Heheheheheh
    I considered doing just that but the Mona Lisa is supposedly an actual portrait of a person other than Leonardo. I based my depiction of him as a female largely from Donatello's statue of David, which a young Leonardo is said to have posed for, and the imaginary female faces he created. They all have those languorous eyes, a long, slender Roman nose and a slight, cherubic smile.

    This was my first digital work - I got my wacom tablet on 03/20 - and I was pretty happy with it as a first go!

    --Madeline

    Madeline Carol Matz
    www.mcmatz.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuloulou View Post
    as you two keep talking about Napoleon, I cannot help but feeling inplicated in this little argument.

    first thing I have learn or will ever remember about illustration, is that it is a game between originality and ready made ideas. As an illustrator you have to make yourself readable. You cannot just do an illustration and blame the other for not understanding you. You have to accept to uses stereotypes and be concise.
    I mean: is Napoleon known for his pissing? non, but, put a napoleon hat to a chair and put its arm in it's coat (if you manage to find one ) and everyone will know who we are talking about.
    As an example, if I would have chosen an actress, I would have chosen sarah bernardt for her leg an certainly use the mucha way to represent her.
    In your picture, we don't read the "actor" part because there is no symbolical stage/scene.
    *** snip ***
    First, I think I'm the one who brought up Napoleon, sorry.
    Your piece is very good, I instantly recognized Napoleon. Perhaps activating a frame in my subconscious when I was responding to MadHatter.

    As to my piece, I agree that it fails to communicate my idea. However, my disagreement with MadHatter is over the idea being valid. Would you agree, that by putting Medea on a stage you dereference her? I believe MadHatter's issue was over my violation of the intended limitations of the brief while obeying the literal limitations.

    As to my comments regarding Napoleon pissing, an exaggeration. Would Napoleon be more known for his coronation painting or his various standing portraits?

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  11. #69
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    Just a note to Poshspice and madhatter106:

    As far as Aly's Wilde is concerned, I think the fact that she's wearing men's clothes is *perfect*. There were plenty of lesbians at the time that *did* wear men's clothing, whatever popular history will lead you to believe. (Just read 'Tipping the Velvet' by Sarah Waters if you don't believe me - hist. fic., but that girl keeps her facts straight.)

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    madhatter106 - Two things jump to mind when I view your piece and the first is probably colour. The background seems too close to her skin tone and gives a large expanse of plain muddy brown. I think some strong lighting might have helped here to set a darker, more sinister tone to the image (currently there also appears to be no shadows being cast). Secondly something bugs me about the way that her hand rests on her knee and her foot on the boy - they just don't seem to touch and there's no deformation of the fabric or skin that has weight on it.

    Poshspice - It was tough to find things I could critique about the image, but the best I could come up with is the expression. When I picture Wilde in my head, one of the main parts is that almost vacant expression with the relaxed brow, maybe it's just me but I'm not feeling that come across in your image. Another point I saw was that the light source is quite hard to read (for me anyway). Most of the shadows seem to indicate that the light is coming from around chest height, directly in front of her, fading out in all directions- why then is the top of her face and underside of her hat brim not partially lit?


    Many thanks for both your comments - honest feedback is always appreciated.

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    Thanks for the Crit, madhatter, but I didn't use Heston as a reference at all. I mean, it's just a good visual cue for everyone else to go by, but I didn't derive her face from him. And Moses was old as crap by the time he went to free the Hebrews anyway, so I wanted to avoid her looking too soft, cute, or hot. She's a chizzled old woman bringing plagues onto Egypt.

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    jpedro: cheers mate!

    there were a lot of good entries for this week, but the ones which really stood out for me were ryuloulou's, posh's, chate_noire's, vorace and puppykitten's.
    I felt that they communicated their illustrations really well.
    posh's and ryu's were both excellently executed in keeping the facial and personal characteristics of the characters in their opposite sex's.

    edit
    psohspice: hehe awesome piece!! im humbled by your presence here... i've read some of your stuff and workshops in the imaginefx magazines - i might have a re-read through those to try and grasp, understand how you painted the wilde piece...
    ryuloulou: you have such a nice style, it really does stand on its own...
    chate_noire: great job on the pose and figure - but i would have loved to personally have seen that painted in that thick and impressionistic style.
    puppykitten: great style, it has that anime, eastern style really posed about it.

    madhatter: man that post you pulled, was intense - cheers for giving everyone the c&cs...
    ...i thought i'd try and capture a totally different character, but i'll keep in mind what you said next time i come across re-iterating personal characteristics of a person into a concept design... and for the reason of the black and white - , im still familiarizing my self practicing in grayscale, building an understanding of value and how they work to create form, before i move into colour.

    Last edited by Paulypaul; March 28th, 2008 at 02:08 AM.
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  18. #73
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    putting Medea on a stage you dereference her
    tsujni now we are running in circles :d I won't argue anymore.

    nevertheless, it is true that Medea was mostly known for killing her sons than just loving them.

    If you are painting a loving greek mother/father , it might be Héra .
    If it is children killing mother it's most certainly Médéa.
    But if you choose only one of those options, it will never be judith anderson, which was, after all, the actress you chose.
    To finish, I cannot resist to link you Mucha's illustration of sarah bernardt playing Médéa
    http://img.radio.cz/pictures/obrazy/...fons/medea.jpg

    gosh I argued

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuloulou View Post
    tsujni now we are running in circles :d I won't argue anymore.

    nevertheless, it is true that Medea was mostly known for killing her sons than just loving them.

    If you are painting a loving greek mother/father , it might be Héra .
    If it is children killing mother it's most certainly Médéa.
    But if you choose only one of those options, it will never be judith anderson, which was, after all, the actress you chose.
    To finish, I cannot resist to link you Mucha's illustration of sarah bernardt playing Médéa
    http://img.radio.cz/pictures/obrazy/...fons/medea.jpg

    gosh I argued

    Fair enough, we both seem convinced of the strength of our positions and I don't wish to turn this thread into an echo chamber. Thanks for the image link.

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    Ok, I voted for:

    ryuloulou my favourite one this round, she's perfect, I love the hair

    Paulypaul I'm not a fan of Dali but I love your picture the hair-moustache parallel is great

    Poshspice no comment you always make a great one

    lord_regenschirm because... dude, they LOOK the same! wow

    vorace just because it's great



    @ madhatter - thanks for taking your time and criting my work but I personally can't see why I'd put melon sized boobs on the female version of Jimi Hendrix when he was skinny, or a skirt on a female in the age of sexual liberation, especially if she's a guitar player. If you said I had anatomical issues you would be quite right (since her lips are skewed, her forearm is too long and her fists are too small) but she looks quite female to me.

    Cheers!

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    Aly and puppykitten, beautiful work. *jealous*

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    No Stalin? thats a shame

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    Wow really cool stuff here! It was fun to see all these familiar historical characters in the other sex.
    Thanks for everyone that commented mine. It was a personal challenge not to make a super-booby-sexy version of Bismarck... it was even frustrating lol! But in the end I'm happy with the result, I will probably get rid of the cape and work a bit more on it to put it in my portfolio.

    I voted 3 times :

    Poshspice, I just love this girl, her attitude

    Felicia : great style, it represents perfectly Vlad Drakul, and somewhat a funny image !

    Ryuloulou : Maybe because I'm half-french make me like a lot this one hehe. Anyway, great picture, Hum je viens de réaliser que tu vis en france, alors pourquoi pas finir en francais hehe. J'aime bien le fait que le background rappel celui de la peinture de Napoleon, son attitude aussi a quelque chose de puissant. Le bas des bottes me semble un peu bizarre, on dirait que les semelles sont moins travaillées et toute carrées, mais bon, a part ça top notch!

    There was some other great work, and I would like to have the time to give a crit-comment to everyone

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  26. #79
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    vorace merci beaucoup, but I don't think it would be correct for the others to go on in french, enven if it is true that it is a bit hard for me to write in english (I feel like an absolute beginner). So thanks again for the compliments, and I wanted to say, I just love your family name, it sounds like an heroic fairy tale one.

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  27. #80
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    Thanks AsaB and Madhatter106 for your comments and crits they were as always very helpful. Madhatter106 I actually threw out an earlier composition with more (4) stars in the background, guess I should have stuck with that one.

    I would also like to thank Oregano and Daestwen for throwing this little party every week! This is a great way for so many of us to sharpen our skills and hopefully improve a little, and a wonderful diversion from our daily grind. Thanks again.

    Travis

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  28. #81
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    Ryuloulou : You are right, anyway I feel strange writing in french on CA hehe. That's the first time someone say this to me loll!! well thanks

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  29. #82
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    I just noticed that Falkedward didn't make the final poll. A real shame as I thought this was a lovely image and deserved recognition. I suppose it's because they lacked a link, but a shame none the less. I'm a sucker for hussar jackets and pelisses anyway!

    Last edited by Aly Fell; March 31st, 2008 at 04:43 AM. Reason: bleh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel Sokov View Post
    No Stalin? thats a shame
    my subject went Saladin, Stalin, Theodora, Nefertiti, the Pythia and then I settled on Medea, in a round about way.
    My apologies.

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  31. #84
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    Congratulations to Ryuloulou on a well deserved win. Someone should have done Wellington and we could have had a mini Waterloo!

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  33. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poshspice View Post
    Congratulations to Ryuloulou on a well deserved win. Someone should have done Wellington and we could have had a mini Waterloo!
    I was *really* considering doing Nelson & Wellington & Napoleon as a mock of that one comic strip from that time period of them sitting around the table cutting up the world like a roast of beef.

    ...but then i realised how much work that would be...

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    Aw, finally got in here again after not having access for a while (hits isp provider), and the vote is over...

    Good work everyone!

    I'd voted for Arthemis IX, jpedro, paulypaul, lord_regenschirm, poshspice, Vorace, Tommoy and Ryuloulou if I could...

    "The fact that no one understands you doesn't make you an artist"

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