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  1. #1
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    Your 2nd Amendment

    The Supreme Court is going to decide this week on whether or not the individual posessing a gun falls under the 2nd Amendment. I heard about this on C-Span this morning, so they might be able to broadcast it when the case goes down. I want to watch it, because the final decision will be historic to say the least. I think it all goes back to the Shay's Rebellion. If history repeats itself again, then maybe D.C v. Heller is a nip in the bud(?) I would not want anyone here to miss an event like this. Keep an eye on it, and tell your friends.

    News article

    Shay's Rebellion


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    Yay....now instead of getting shot I'll be beaten to death with a baton...Or they will just get a gun illigally and shoot my anyway.

    Horray for my country makeing it illigal to have my own means of defending myself...

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    Oops, I doubble posted on accident!

    I'll just add that Guns have been a part of this country since day one...and like the people who have them are going to hand them over?
    I understand that guns are a serious problem in this country, but think of it this way.

    A scalpel can save a life, or kill it, and you don't make it safer by dulling the edge...

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    Gun control is good and all the arguments against it are pretty first year philosophy student sounding and generally infantile.

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    I'm in the same boat as Vhan on this one. Gun control won't do much to stop the crime rate we have now, it will only make it so the ones who actually do use a gun lawfully won't have one when they need one. In most cases the only way to negotiate is with a gun. And yes, I do mean most cases sadly.

    It's not the guns that kill people. It's the uneducated people who have the guns that kill people. I blame the country's school system. I believe it's the government's fault we have so many uneducated people in the country that turn to violence to get their way.

    I have a bunch more to say about this, but not really right now. And I'll definitely be watching that.

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    I'll laugh my ass off as soon as your kids find your gun in the beside table and shoot themselves (or better, you) in the head!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhan Juju View Post
    Yay....now instead of getting shot I'll be beaten to death with a baton...Or they will just get a gun illigally and shoot my anyway.

    Horray for my country makeing it illigal to have my own means of defending myself...
    Sadly statistics claim that most people who get shot where shot by someone they knew, angry husbands, jealous girlfriends, drunk neighbors, and so on.
    "Master storytellers never explain. They do the hard, painfully creative thing-- they dramatize"

    Sketchbook

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    I thought this was interesting.....

    Supreme Court decision on Castle Rock v. Gonzales (2005), you can read about it right here and intrepret it yourself.

    I think the Castle Rock case relates to the whole 2nd amendment vs. gun control argument. I'm glad this sparked some interest.

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    I'll laugh my ass off as soon as your kids find your gun in the beside table and shoot themselves (or better, you) in the head!
    ...gunlock?...don't store guns loaded?

    Sadly statistics claim that most people who get shot where shot by someone they knew, angry husbands, jealous girlfriends, drunk neighbors, and so on
    Really? wow...

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    Fuck it, they ought to just make murder illegal.

    EDIT: If you're for gun control, be aware. Washington DC has a gun ban. Not coincidentally, it also has the highest murder rate in the United States.
    Last edited by Atlantis; March 17th, 2008 at 04:17 PM.

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    See I'm kinda split here. I think people should be allowed to own guns but I think they should have stricter laws for owning them. I think they should make it harder to get semi-automatic and automatic guns, you know guns with rapid fire capability. And I don't know where people find Uzi's. There was a guy who shot several children and a grown man with an Uzi and glock. That's rediculous.

    When you're under 18, you don't even have to have a permit to have the gun.

    When people have guns they should keep them in locked cases or hide them better, not in low drawers where children can get them. There have been so many instances of children 10 and under killing other people because the found a gun. There was a nine year old boy in the 80's who shot a 7 year old girl because she beat him at a game. He did it with his fathers pistol which he found in a low drawer.

    So back to my original thoughts, no semi-automatic, automatic, machine, or submachine. Single shot people, if someone's breaking into your house all it takes is one shot.

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    Good news! Chief Justice Roberts approved the media's release of the argument, so we'll all get to listen to it. The only time I've ever heard a court case was watching Law and Order, but this will be history in the making I think.

    Here's to add to Duq's point. link

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    Hey i have a new idea, lets discuss gun control! Shit, we can argue religion and politics when we're done!
    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

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    Hey i have a new idea, lets discuss gun control! Shit, we can argue religion and politics when we're done!
    REALLY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    Hey i have a new idea, lets discuss gun control! Shit, we can argue religion and politics when we're done!
    Yeah, and is digital art really art? I don't think so!

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    Yeah, and is digital art really art? I don't think so!
    because we all know that the only REAL art is the kind you can kill people with!

  18. #17
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    "I smite thee with my mighty warrior drawn on tinted kraft paper in charcoal!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantis View Post
    Fuck it, they ought to just make murder illegal.

    EDIT: If you're for gun control, be aware. Washington DC has a gun ban. Not coincidentally, it also has the highest murder rate in the United States.
    Sales of ice cream goes up as crime goes up. Therefore ice cream causes crime!

    Be wary of making false correlations. The murder rate in Washington DC is likely much much more complex than you just made it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wassermelone View Post
    Sales of ice cream goes up as crime goes up. Therefore ice cream causes crime!

    Be wary of making false correlations. The murder rate in Washington DC is likely much much more complex than you just made it.
    Ice cream and murder are unrelated though; be wary of simplifying correlations into meaninglessness.

    I'd be interested to hear an explanation of how it's more complex, but I can make other correlations as well. After the gun ban in Australia, crime (including homicide by firearm) shot up. It's no stretch of logic to presume that criminals are more bold when they know that all law-abiding citizens have been disarmed.

    Hitler strengthened existing gun laws from the Weimer Republic to disarm Jews before the Holocaust, btw. Many Holocaust scholars have argued that the Final Solution couldn't have been carried out if this hadn't been done.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Josef Stalin (who also instituted gun control measures before exterminating 20 million dissidents)

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    There probably is some effect between gun control and murder rates, but what that is, is likely beyond me. I'm not a statistician or a sociologist (and Im guessing neither are you). As for a direct causation like you seem to be implying? I doubt it greatly.

    How does England fit into your direct causation theory? Surely, with their ban on guns they would have a incredibly high homicide rate?

    You have to understand me though, I'm not entirely for gun control, but Im not entirely against it either. Its a very complex issue and I think a lot of people have a purely emotional and cultural response to it. Extreme responses such as "From my cold dead hands!" and "OMG guns are the devil!". I certainly don't want a situation like New Jersey where ownership of a gun has become almost like a sex offender in eyes of the law, but I don't think that guns should be able to be bought legally with undue ease either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhan Juju View Post
    ...gunlock?...don't store guns loaded?
    Yeah, that will keep your pet hamster from shooting it's family. You're totally right.

  23. #22
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    Artwork doesn't kill people, artists do.


    [Didn't Mao say that thing about power coming from the barrel of a gun?]
    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary

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    (sorry, double post.)

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    Wassermelone: From my research on the subject, England had a low violent crime rate before the gun ban... but ever since its inception in '97, it's been growing steadily. In fact, it's been growing ever since 1953, when Britons were banned from carrying any weapons on their persons. I've read that, in the two years since the gun ban was implemented, violent crime rose something like 40% and then another 50% in the year after that. Like you said, I'm no statistician, but the numbers are at least highly suggestive, I think.

    Here's one source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2656875.stm

    I'm not sure I understand why you doubt a direct causative link; if you can think of any other reason the correlation might arise, I'd be interested. For myself, I am firmly against gun control - it's a simple matter of separation of powers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    [Didn't Mao say that thing about power coming from the barrel of a gun?]

    You may be right; I've heard it attributed to Stalin, but I've never really checked. Same principle applies, though, as both murdered their own people. Weapon bans are historically pretty much always instituted by governments that either want to enslave their people or systematically kill them.

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    Your link from the BBC is from 2003. You are right, there was a spike in crime after the gun ban, but these show that it has been falling ever since:

    http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page39.asp
    http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp

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    Hm, ok. I wonder why they fall after 2001 (but I'm thinking it's probably not related to gun bans). Can I add another correlation: that crimes in all the 33 states that allow concealed carry permits are lower than the other 27?

    Not attempting to be confrontational, just enjoying the debate. =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Artwork doesn't kill people, artists do.
    Damn straight.

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    Criminals will still aquire and use guns regardless of whether or not we have right to bear arms. This ban wont hurt the criminal at all...it's not like you need to use "legal" guns to commit "illegal" crimes anyway. The right to bear arms is supposed to give the state the right to allow its populace the priviledge of protecting its civil rights and liberties against it's enemies...foreign or domestic.

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    Criminals will still aquire and use guns regardless of whether or not we have right to bear arms. This ban wont hurt the criminal at all...it's not like you need to use "legal" guns to commit "illegal" crimes anyway.
    That's absolutly right!! You know in Phoenix you are allowed to carry a gun as long as it can be seen. You have to have a permit for concealed but as long as it can be seen you can have it. I think this discourages would be criminals. If there's this guy walking toward a mugger down the street and the mugger sees he's got a gun you think he's gonna mug him?

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    All I can say is I'm glad our founding fathers didn't have cars back then. Can you imagine how many wrecks we'd have today if every blind, deaf old crank was screaming about their 11th Amendment to drive!

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