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  1. #31
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    Here is a more recent article, fellas:

    LINK
    I know that here in North Carolina, we have federally licensed gun dealers that has to run background checks on anyone who wants to buy a gun (the Brady Law). Then after the sale, there are forms to sign; licenses and all that.


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  3. #32
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    what's the point of even owning a gun, when there are so many restrictions on it's use? if you shoot someone, even in self-defense, you might still end up in jail. because what if you end up killing the person?

    Modern guns are so lethal, especially with some of the really destructive ammunition they are making these days. On any average human person all it takes is one bullet.

    People get so carried away, they don't realize how powerful these things are. especially the guns that are available these days, I see (semi-autos)Ak-47s, M16s, DE .50 pistol, model 500 revolver all available at a local Dunhams sports store here in Michigan.
    It bothers me that such guns are so easily available. WHY would anyone need a frickin M16? heh, collecting them is one thing, that's cool, if you want to have a collection of antique weapons and modern weapons just for show.

    In terms of self-defense, your just increasing the risk for yourself and other people around you. also if it's the area you live in that isn't deemed safe, like Detroit for example, try moving away to a safer place. That way, you'll be safe and so will your neighbors.

    People underestimate the responsibility of owning guns.
    so It really might be a good thing that nobody should be allowed to have them.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by REGNIRUTH View Post

    People underestimate the responsibility of owning guns.
    so It really might be a good thing that nobody should be allowed to have them.
    The sad fact is, though, that if you look at history, practically all governments in the history of the human race have either started as tyrannies or devolved into them. Freedom is the exception in history, not the rule. The draftsmen of our Bill of Rights were extremely well aware of this and wrote in the second amendment to act as a reset switch should tyranny ever come to our shores.

    Owning guns isn't about hunting, or sport-shooting, or even home defense, in the end. Owning guns is about keeping the ultimate power of the nation in the hands of the people. That is why civilian ownership of M16s is legal here. Yes, it's a responsibility, but a free country depends on responsible citizens.

    "People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people."

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  6. #34
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by REGNIRUTH View Post
    also if it's the area you live in that isn't deemed safe, like Detroit for example, try moving away to a safer place. That way, you'll be safe and so will your neighbors.
    Thing is, in my world if I want to live in the "safe" part of town, I'd need to triple my income, just to rent a tiny flat..until then, I'm kinda in "The Hood".

    so It really might be a good thing that nobody should be allowed to have them.
    People who aren't allowed to have them will still get them if they want them..

    I could probably get one and I'm not even a shady sort of guy, fuck knows how childishly easy it is if you happen to know scary people..
    Last edited by Flake; March 17th, 2008 at 10:50 PM.

  7. #35
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    I wish they could just hand out guns for free once you hit like 14 or 15, if everyone had a gun there would be no crime in the world at all.

  8. #36
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    Thanks for that Light, just as constructive and helpful as usual.

    You have totally added a new and interesting dimension to the discussion..Oh wait...

  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by light View Post
    Gun control is good and all the arguments against it are pretty first year philosophy student sounding and generally infantile.
    Regulation is good. And even then, only to a minor extent.
    My work: [link]

  10. #38
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    Trying to control the flow of small arms through legislation, is about as asinine as trying to control the flow of drugs through legislation - Especially in this country, where we produce and sell easily 10 times as many of these things as our next closest competitor. People who want guns will still be able to acquire them, regardless of what the Supreme Court rules, and by restricting legal access, we’ll likely just push the trade underground and make it more profitable for the criminal element.

    We should consider ourselves lucky that we’re not swimming in M16s and Kalashnikovs like much of the rest of the world.
    Last edited by Jasonwclark; March 17th, 2008 at 10:44 PM.

  11. #39
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    Screw it. Let's just arm all our cats and there will be no crime.

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  13. #40
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    the crime rates in europe are always below the ones from the states... europe has somewhat strict gun control laws. of course gun control isn't the only thing that influences this statistic. but if guns are supposed to keep you safe, they are doing a pretty bad job.

    guns are primary supposed to kill people not to protect people. it never made much sense to me how a gun is supposed to help me.
    I don't think I will ever own enough money to risk my life for it by drawing a gun in front of an armed robber. Would you do so?

    of course I can imagine scenarios where a gun would save my life, but I can think of many more occasions, where a first aid kit would save my life and yet I'm not carying one around. Stop beeing afraid of everything. One day you ARE going to die.

    (though carying a first aid kit around could really help to make your life a bit longer)

    statistics:
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...lts-per-capita
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  15. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonwclark View Post
    Trying to control the flow of small arms through legislation, is about as asinine as trying to control the flow of drugs through legislation - Especially in this country, where we produce and sell easily 10 times as many of these things as our next closest competitor. People who want guns will still be able to acquire them, regardless of what the Supreme Court rules, and by restricting legal access, we’ll likely just push the trade underground and make it more profitable for the criminal element.

    We should consider ourselves lucky that we’re not swimming in M16s and Kalashnikovs like much of the rest of the world.
    You got a point, brings up that old effort of prohibition on alcohol way back in the day. Sparked underground brewing and plenty of smuggling.
    so Then banning guns really may not be good in those terms, but still, some people just don't deserve guns.

    However, I may have gone off a bit on Gun Control, I still see no point in owning a gun. Too many restrictions, makes shooting someone not worth it.
    seems the like the best one should do is just threaten to shoot and hopes that person will back off. which I assume most people would do.
    But still some people just have stupid means of owning a gun.
    the crime rates in europe are always below the ones from the states... europe has somewhat strict gun control laws. of course gun control isn't the only thing that influences this statistic. but if guns are supposed to keep you safe, they are doing a pretty bad job.

    guns are primary supposed to kill people not to protect people. it never made much sense to me how a gun is supposed to help me.
    I don't think I will ever own enough money to risk my life for it by drawing a gun in front of an armed robber. Would you do so?

    of course I can imagine scenarios where a gun would save my life, but I can think of many more occasions, where a first aid kit would save my life and yet I'm not carying one around. Stop beeing afraid of everything. One day you ARE going to die.

    (though carying a first aid kit around could really help to make your life a bit longer)
    good one, i agree with some of your questions toward owning a gun.
    Last edited by REGNIRUTH; March 17th, 2008 at 11:51 PM.

  16. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by REGNIRUTH View Post
    what's the point of even owning a gun, when there are so many restrictions on it's use? if you shoot someone, even in self-defense, you might still end up in jail. because what if you end up killing the person?

    In my state its legal to shoot someone if they are in your home (uninvited), within 20 feet of you and are facing you. Yeah you might have to fill out some paper work and go to a local police station, but you wont get in trouble. Guns like any weapon, are a last resort.

    I have guns in my home because my house has been broken into before. If I can avoid shooting someone, I will. We have also had many break ins, in my area where upwards of 4 armed men would kick down a door and raid a home. I would much rather have a gun, than a melee weapon or die. If they would pass a bill like "everyone with a proper gun license doesn't have to give up their gun for 5 yrs after the ban date" that would be fine. That would give the police the time to clean up a lot of guns off the street. I would also like to see a large increase in local police budgets and more officers on the streets.

    Of course like with everything, its easier to take away a freedom than it is to teach people to handle the responsibility. Ban violent video games, ban rap music, ban alcohol, ban drugs, ban guns, ban graffiti. People, as a whole take the easy way out. I guess "punishing many because of the few" is just the nature of the beast when living in a large population of people.
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  17. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnapl View Post

    So back to my original thoughts, no semi-automatic, automatic, machine, or submachine. Single shot people, if someone's breaking into your house all it takes is one shot.
    Bullshit.

    I'll say it again, bullshit. I've personally seen people hyped up on nothing more than adrenaline take multiple shots to the head with bullets made to fuck people up and keep on skipping for at least 20 minutes. Now tell me that the crazed junkie whos hopped up on speed is gonna go down with one bullet. Unless you carry a Desert Eagle or a shotgun from about 5 feet or less you're fucked.

    I'll quote from a magazine I just bought a few days ago, "Officer Smith was dispatched on a disturbance call. Upon arrival, he attempted to interview a known drug dealer who was present on the scene. The suspect verbally threatened the officer, picked up a weapon and charged him in a threatening manner. Realizing that he was in grave danger, Officer Smith drew his department-issued Beretta, fired two shots and the holstered his firearm. The suspect sustained two hits to the chest and continued his drug-driven rampage, killing Officer Smith. Although the officer's name was changed here, this, sadly, is a true story." The magazine was the March issue of Tactical Guns and Gear and the author of the article is David Kenik.

    Now, tell this Officer Smith that all it takes is one shot. Better yet, tell his family. The problem is this, people who make outrageous claims about guns and gun safety who actually know nothing about guns and gun safety. The truth of the matter is if it takes all 15 9MM rounds that you have in the magazine of your handgun to take down a home invader, every round is worth it as long as your family is safe.

    The key here is education. If everybody who was legally allowed to own and operate a firearm had to be trained and certified, we'd be safer. Of course guns would still fall into the wrong hands, but that's sadly unavoidable and at least the law abiding citizens would all know how to use their guns.

    Children should be taught about gun safety and the dangers of firearms early on. Take away guns in homes with children, make the parents lock their guns up high? What's wrong with locking them up down low? Who ever heard of solving a problem by avoiding it all together anyway?

    And no semi-automatic guns? Are you crazy? Do you expect me to take a muzzleloader when it comes to home defense? What if a guy breaks into my house at the front door. He has literally 3 feet until he is at my son's door and maybe 10 until he's at mine and my wife's bedroom door. If my first shot missed (cause I'm scared, it's dark, I hoped to scare him off) I've got a fraction of a second before he's into my son's room with a knife and it's going to take much more than that to load another round. Even if it's not a muzzleloader the time it takes me to pull back the slide or cock the hammer is too much, that invader could have potentially already killed my son. That's unacceptable.

    So, you take your crazy ass half cocked gun control measures and implement them in your home all you want but stay the fuck out of my life with that shit.

  18. #44
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    I'm sorry but I have to step in and say my peace about this... Simply put, this is not going to work in any era. Even if you were to round up all of the registered guns and unregistered guns, the ability to manufacture a firearm is in all aspects childsplay. All it takes is a metal tube that is sealed at one end that holds gunpowder and some sort of projectile and a fuse or firing pin and you have yourself a crude gun. Although all modern textbooks don't have gunpowder's compound... it is still easy enough to create and obtain.

    And then theres even those who can cause harm even without guns... Bows and arrows still are as effective as they were hundreds to thousands of years ago, good ol' fisticuffs (you can kill a man by breaking the bridge of the nose and then palmstrike the base of it pushing it into the man's brains as well as several pressure points that can have an adverse effect to bloodflow.), knives, swords, traps, name it and you can manipulate it into a weapon... (even a well sharpened pencil or a pen). A catapult slinging a massive boulder can still do some major damage to a tank.
    Pretty much all I'm trying to say is that any fool who has the knowledge can and will be able to do what they will.

    Its the fear proccess that governments that are trying to gather power to their favor will always resort to. Disarm and disable their citizens so that their biggest threat isn't that big... Further with propaganda and a pinch of deceipt and you have yourself the fourth reich.

    I fear that they will be really pushing it especially due to the recession and upcoming depression that will force people to have to resort to violent means to provide for their families or themselves.

  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dose206 View Post
    The truth of the matter is if it takes all 15 9MM rounds that you have in the magazine of your handgun to take down a home invader, every round is worth it as long as your family is safe.
    Now I'm not from the USA and we don't have guns here. My own house has been 'invaded' 3 times, twice the guys got caught with forensics. What strikes me about your post is what the hell do you think your home is being invaded for!? Its just stuff, probably insured. You would kill a guy for £1000 worth of junk, I doubt anyone is in real danger unless your making it hard for them to do by waving a gun around.

  20. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    In my state its legal to shoot someone if they are in your home (uninvited), within 20 feet of you and are facing you. Yeah you might have to fill out some paper work and go to a local police station, but you wont get in trouble. Guns like any weapon, are a last resort.
    By 'last resort', you mean an imminent threat, right?

    There was a case here in my town where that happened. The homeowner was not charged because he faced an imminent threat and he protected himself.

    LINK

    Here is another story from my hometown, same incident, the homeowner was not charged:

    LINK

    I fear that they will be really pushing it especially due to the recession and upcoming depression that will force people to have to resort to violent means to provide for their families or themselves.
    Well, it is an election year. With the state of our union the way it is, I think that the fear of chaos and disorder is being pushed, and more government is necessary; I don't agree with that. There won't be an all out war if citizen had the right to own a gun.

    You can't depend on government to protect you and your family, you can do it yourself; and if you a father or mother, it is your sole responsibility to do so.

    Remember, the Gonzales case I linked earlier.

    Also, research Shay's Rebellion; Daniel Shays and several other farmers were hit with high debt and taxes as a result of the AR. They were threatened with persecution and imprisonment if they did not pay the taxes, and so they revolted. They lost the battle at Springfield Armory in 1787, but the incident really scared the crap out of government. Our founding fathers realized this event and they wrote the U.S Constitution in 1788 with the 2nd amendment enabling the people to protect themselves from the government.

    My question is: Do you want to be able to protect yourself from government?

    Don't forget that C-Span will broadcast the case argument today, so check it out. I see that this case is finally getting some national attention. Have it playing in the background while you are drawing
    Last edited by SugaCrcl; March 18th, 2008 at 08:13 AM.

  21. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    Criminals will still aquire and use guns regardless of whether or not we have right to bear arms. This ban wont hurt the criminal at all...it's not like you need to use "legal" guns to commit "illegal" crimes anyway. The right to bear arms is supposed to give the state the right to allow its populace the priviledge of protecting its civil rights and liberties against it's enemies...foreign or domestic.
    I'm very glad somebody made this post. As of right now I'm actually writing an essay on gun control. My viewpoint is that gun control is good..... And since I live in South Carolina, I'm just about the only person here who believes it.

    Anyways, to your arguement. This is slightly true, but for the most part, false. Restricting guns to the overall populace in NO WAY means that its "taking guns from the good and leaving the bad guys with the guns" as one of my friends stated it. Half of the people who commit robberies or go on shooting sprees are stupid rednecks, or mentally ill... How likely is it that one of these people will have connections to an underground arms dealer? The Virginia Tech shooter last year was some fucked up asian kid who had depression issues. He had been diagnosed several times beforea s being MENTALLY ILL, yet had absolutely no trouble in attaining automatic weapons and slaughtering 32 innocent people. If we had stricter gun laws and actually ENFORCED them, this would have never happened. I doubt some psychotic introvertive college asian kid has connections with an underground arms dealer.

    I don't understand how people can even THINK of saying that a world with guns is safer than one without. Self defense, yes, guns help. But guns are needed to defend oneself against WHAT? OTHER guns. I don't need a gun to defend myself against a mugger, or even a person with a knife. If the government does a good job of keeping gun dealers on a tight leash, then people wont need guns to defend against eachother.

    Also, when i speak of guns, i'm mainly talking about concielable weapons or automatic weapons. Theres nothing wrong with hunting weapons... hunting is, unfortunately, a large part of the southern redneck culture (hahaha), and theres nothing wrong with that. But theres absolutely NO fucking reason why automatic rifles or machine guns should be able to be sold to any person in this country. What the fuck are you going to do with a machine gun? Hunt? Self defense? My asshole. Somebody up there made a post about some guy on stardust or whatever who took several shots and still didnt die. This still doesnt justify the use of automatic machine guns for "self defense". I think that the cases in which people go on killing sprees with machine guns should easily counteract the few cases in which a machine gun is needed to defend against a single person on stardust.

    I'm not hoping for complete gun control. In some cases, guns are good, but for the most part, no. Just tighter restrictions that will actually be enforced is all we need. Not some national anti-gun campaign that will attempt to remove guns from almost everybody, and will in turn just spark more violence and crime and civilian deaths.

    God knows I could go on and on and on about this: its something I really believe strongly in. Maybe once I finish the essay I'll revive the thread and post it on here. Sorry its pretty unorganized and jumbled up... I just made the post then went back up and read some other posts and came back and added stuff... I'll check the thread later. Its good that I may actually be able to have a logical argument with people here as opposed to the fucking retards im surrounded by at school.
    Last edited by ChristianWeeks; March 18th, 2008 at 12:06 PM.

  22. #48
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    The gun debate is only one of a number of "what the f@#$ is our culture about" debates, that should be happening right now.
    The economy and culture of the USA seems to be preoccupied on some primordial instinct (media fuelled) that someone's going to steal our home/country/lifestyle.
    Tick which one applies today.

    Brilliant lounge topic btw, I love it

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    gus aren't the problem its the price of bullets they are too cheap if a bullet cost €/$ 5,000 you would think long and hard before you shot someone.
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    Owning guns isn't about hunting, or sport-shooting, or even home defense, in the end. Owning guns is about keeping the ultimate power of the nation in the hands of the people. That is why civilian ownership of M16s is legal here. Yes, it's a responsibility, but a free country depends on responsible citizens.
    I think that this is the most reasonable arguement that I have seen on here yet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnapl View Post
    See I'm kinda split here. I think people should be allowed to own guns but I think they should have stricter laws for owning them. I think they should make it harder to get semi-automatic and automatic guns, you know guns with rapid fire capability. And I don't know where people find Uzi's. There was a guy who shot several children and a grown man with an Uzi and glock. That's rediculous.
    (and this one from the bottom of the post)
    So back to my original thoughts, no semi-automatic, automatic, machine, or submachine. Single shot people, if someone's breaking into your house all it takes is one shot.
    Please use brains before spouting off at the top. Its already illegal to own automatic weapons in most states. The states that do allow them have the lowest guncrime rates and it is very rare that any of those crimes are done with a machine gun. "automatic, machine, or submachine" is horribly redundant, and submachine guns and machine guns are automatic.

    "Rapid fire capability" is meaningless. It could mean a wild-west style quick draw, though I'm guessing that isn't what you meant. If you meant being able to pull off shots in quick succession then you'd have to outlaw revolvers as well, since with a revolver you can palm the hammer while shooting from the hip. (Another quaint though pointless wild west gun move.) Granted, it causes you to loose all accuracy, but its still "rapid fire capability" and therefore must be bad.

    Banning semi-automatic weapons is assinine, as all that semi-auto means is that you make a shot each time you pull the trigger. (Untill your clip runs out.) Lets face it, not everyone is a sniper, especially not with a pistol. Yes, it is possible to kill with one shot. (Its also possible to kill with a compound bow and broadheads.) However if that shot fails its nice to know you have 8 more to back it up. Its especially nice to know when the other guy also has a semi-auto pistol.

    As for your "there was a guy" story; I have heard of no such event and you provide no reference, therefore I must assume you pulled the story out of your ass. Or a computer game.

    When you're under 18, you don't even have to have a permit to have the gun.
    Once again, please use brains. When you are under 18 it is illegal to own a gun. Your statement is just about as smart as saying "when you are under 18 you don't even need to be registered to vote."

    When people have guns they should keep them in locked cases or hide them better, not in low drawers where children can get them. There have been so many instances of children 10 and under killing other people because the found a gun. There was a nine year old boy in the 80's who shot a 7 year old girl because she beat him at a game. He did it with his fathers pistol which he found in a low drawer.
    Yay, another "there was a-" story. Look, a gun that is locked up and innaccessable does you no good when you need it. When it comes to children the best thing you can teach them is "if you ever see a gun don't even touch it unless daddy gives you permission. It is not as easy to use them as in the movies and if you don't know what you are doing someone could get hurt or killed and it would be your fault, so leave it alone."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomwaits4noman View Post
    gus aren't the problem its the price of bullets they are too cheap if a bullet cost €/$ 5,000 you would think long and hard before you shot someone.
    You joke stealer.

    I like Eddie Murphy when he was younger too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhan Juju View Post
    I think that this is the most reasonable arguement that I have seen on here yet...
    +1


    and having recently gotten shot i will say by the looks of the gun it wasent something that was legally purchased . it was likely stolen it was almost antique looking
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugaCrcl View Post
    By 'last resort', you mean an imminent threat, right?

    There was a case here in my town where that happened. The homeowner was not charged because he faced an imminent threat and he protected himself.

    LINK

    Here is another story from my hometown, same incident, the homeowner was not charged:

    LINK

    Yes. But I think if one could get away without killing someone, one should. I mean, my life isn't worth the stuff in my house, but neither is some one else's even if they are a criminal. On the other hand, if its a toss up between my or my family's safety and shooting a burglar, then they're going to have a very bad day.
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    I've posted something similar to this before. It is NOT an argument for or against banning all firearms.

    I live in a semi-rural area with NO police force, and extremely difficult to patrol if we had one. The greater region around me is economically depressed and relatively high-crime. We have gangs, junkies, crash-and-burn home assaults, and something city people don't...an incredibly high incidence of rabies among animals that have no real fear of humans.

    I have guns. That's GUNS. Multiple. And my wife and I are both crack shots. I have utilitarian knives I use on a regular basis that would make most people shit their pants, and in a pinch, I can make an incredibly lethal spear/mace/club in a few minutes (literally) from items within easy reach within my home. This is basic survival knowledge in my area.

    I support the 2nd amendment, but hate the NRA, redneck yahoos, automatic weapons, and anyone who defends them with bullshit excuses. I really can't stomach assholes who scream for the right to own a bazooka for home protection or hunting, and I really can't stomach the other extreme who want my entire fuckin' life controlled by laws that would make me just like them because they have a bug up their narrow-minded unforgiving ass.

    My rationales don't apply to most people in a major city, and they don't apply to most "proper" suburban communities. It's just how it is where I am.

    End of rant. Didn't resolve anything, or change anyone's mind, did it? Fuck it. That's the way things are and they aren't going to change anytime soon, so learn to live with it.
    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

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  31. #56
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    It'd be nice to get some good statistics on gun ownership and gun deaths. There was an international comparison of gun violence and ownership on wikipedia. It shows a rough correlation, but it doesn't go into the causes of gun violence.

    If the majority of gun deaths were really in "self-defence" then they would be a good thing, I guess. Mostly what you hear is the majority of deaths coming from accidents within families. Any links to fresh statistics would be good.

  32. #57
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    ChristianWeeks: Good luck with that report. I'm from NC, so I can understand that gun rights is an important issue; especially in rural areas where houses and trailers are situated in the middle of nowhere and it may take several minutes for law enforcement and emergency services to get there if any trouble happens.

    Did anyone watch, or listen to the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Chimp View Post
    You joke stealer.

    I like Eddie Murphy when he was younger too.
    I'm pretty sure it was Chris Rock.
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    Gun ownership statistics and violent crime statistics have only the slightest correlation. You can't really compare statistics like that in any kind of meanful way...well you can certainly try and get anyone who doesn't think for a second to sign up to your cause, but thats not proving anything other than people haven't been taught to think critically. Violent crime can go up for a near infinite number of reasons, and when it does its inevitably a combination of those reasons NOT just one. The comparisons break down to complete meanlessness when you cross international boundardies as the variable just become to complex with differences in government policies, levels of industrialization, cultural norms, etc.
    Ia Ia Cthulhu Fthagn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantis View Post
    I'm not sure I understand why you doubt a direct causative link; if you can think of any other reason the correlation might arise, I'd be interested. For myself, I am firmly against gun control - it's a simple matter of separation of powers.
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html

    By the way, I don't support banning guns. I don't feel safe knowing that if somebody attacks me, all I can do is call 911. Most violent crimes are committed by full grown men, so as a woman I can't expect that I'll be able to run fast enough or defend myself. I doubt anyone thinks they have any chance of defending themselves unarmed against somebody with a gun. But we have accept that there is no proof that banning guns leads to more crime, or less crime. Maybe gun ownership doesn't effect the murder rate at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Crazy Dude SRD View Post
    I'm sorry but I have to step in and say my peace about this... Simply put, this is not going to work in any era. Even if you were to round up all of the registered guns and unregistered guns, the ability to manufacture a firearm is in all aspects childsplay. All it takes is a metal tube that is sealed at one end that holds gunpowder and some sort of projectile and a fuse or firing pin and you have yourself a crude gun. Although all modern textbooks don't have gunpowder's compound... it is still easy enough to create and obtain.
    Yeah, it's scary what people can build from scratch. It wasn't difficult for me to find those books either, all I did was search on amazon, and then I googled one of the books I found on amazon and found that website full of books about killing people, breaking locks, changing your identity, and even a section with revenge books. I bet nobody's going to advocate getting rid of the right to free speech though.

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