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  1. #76
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    This is a site for the author of the recently reprinted Bargue catalog - (for the show that took place at the Dahesh Museum a few months ago). Some Bargue drawings are shown on this site.

    http://www.geraldmackerman.com


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  3. #77
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    Talking Oh Man Oh Man Oh Man!

    I was going to post a thread on Bargue drawing, but it looks like you beat me to it by about 2 1/2 years! lol!

    GREAT THREAD!

    I have started my Bargue technique, but I am using a cast of Seneca. I want to back up and do several from the drawings first. One thing in the book that has not been discussed on this thread is that the curves are all put in using straight lines first to avoid the tendency to draw arcs and to get the amplitude and curvature correct.
    I am putting a link to this thread on my site. If you want to see the information I have on old master techniques visit:

    1st Class Pinups Old Masters' Painting Techniques Newsletter (Link dead, Sept, 05)

    Love this thread, and this board! Will post my progress here as I go. Many, many thanks. It is wonderful to see people charged up about the old methods and aesthetics. I moved to Madrid from Laguna Beach, CA to study Velazquez at the Prado over 4 years ago. Best decision I ever made. Have two friends (Zach Lawson and Annette Lear) from the Art Institute of Southern California (now the Laguna College of Art and Design), where we studied for four years together, who went on to the Florence Academy. I visited Florence last March and got the info on the Dahesh source for the Barge book.

    Now my wife and I are purchasing a house west of Toledo (if everything goes ok) and I will be starting a teaching taller (atelier in Spanish). We have a three-bedroom fully furnished apartment downstairs and a large studio area below that (and a huge garden with chickens!), pool, landscaping, castle in town, another ten minutes away, located in one of the best wine regions of Spain! Yeah! Life is Very Good!

    Martín 8)
    Last edited by madster; September 14th, 2005 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #78
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    you guys need to pick easy bargues...!!!!!!!!

    Hi!............
    I just stumbled upon this site looking for Bargues my mom can draw.....she wants me to teach her what I'm learning.

    I go to The Florence Academy of Art....I studyd Bargue drawing for 2 trimesters.....but some go faster...others slower...I did 3 easy small Baruges in pencil..then 3 larg harder ones....the Belvidear torso is the hardest brague to draw.... http://digilander.libero.it/tuttobia...0001bargue.jpg and I did that with charcoal....it took me 5 weeks to do...and it was really large...... http://img71.photobucket.com/albums/...cture_0908.jpg this one is good for a first or 2nd pencil drawing...........................
    http://www.mindcandyman.com/jons_upl...nal%20side.jpg this ones good for a 2nd drawing....

    If I find them on the net or find away to show you my drawings I did...then I will..but some people need to do more then just 3 pencil and 3 charcoal to get to cast drawings....and sometimes it takes some people3 months to do one drawing...everyone is different.............DONT USE A RULER TO MESSURE ANYTHING.........it really does not help you!

    Put your drawings on a bord next to eachother eye leavel on a easel thats strait up and down....plum your easel to make sure!..do the drawing standing up!...step back lots to see it from a disstence!....We NEVER sit down to draw! I stand 6-11hours aday drawing...now I'm drawing my 3rd cast...

    Keep your pencil extraaaaaaamly sharp!!!! Use an exacto knife and shave the wood away to expose around 1-1 1/2 inches of graffite(make sure you dont carve the lead...it will make it weaker and more easy to brak)....now use a fine fine fine sand paper..so smooth its kinda as fine as the fine side of a nail file...go to a hardwear store....get it!..you dont need a huge pice....maybe as big as your hand..(sometimes they'll give it to you for free)....now tape this to a bord........sharpen it to a nedel point...like a wepon...(sorry my spelling sucks as s)....keep a few penciles ready....2h-HB..maybe even 5h-hb...........you do the same with charcoal once you get there.

    get a little mirror the size of your hand with no rim....but tape the back and around the edge(so if it breakes there wont be such a mess to clean)
    You should use the mirror lotssss!!!!!!!! upside down or backwords or butterfly.......its a great tool!

    You really need alot of time and dont let it frustrait you!.It sure has helped me!.....I can see sooooooooooooo much better now!

    But its still best to go to a art school........I think that The Florence Academy of Art is the best there is....but if you can get something close..then try..but if you can get in here..its worth it!..or if you can find someone to studdy under that studyd here for a few years..at least 3-4......

    yup..well..its cool that you guys are trying Bargue drawing.......its worth it!

    ciao ciao
    -someartgirlinflorence

  5. #79
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    mindcandyman..

    question are you doing the bargue drawings the ones that took you weeks..from a distance..like the cast drawings??..oh here are mine for critique..bare with me..they took me half an hour maybe less or a bit more..
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)

    i just did plate 51 this time it took me like two hours..i'll take a pic of it..it was really challenging..im not use to detailing..but next one i will do it properly i guess..from an easel..my eye needs acurateness buahhhhhhhhh...
    oh mindycandyman..do you have sargeants portrait charcoals..by dover publications very cheap and very cool here are some that i copy last year myself..
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    this is one i painted from a book.. i did with acrylic that's why it sucks i need to manipulate the paint..so i better stick with oil hehe
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Last edited by the_allejo05; June 2nd, 2005 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #80
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    paper recommendations for bargue

    hi,

    i would like to start a bargue drawing. i scanned in the plate from the book at a high res [600dpi] and printed it out on gloss paper. do you recommend professional printouts over home printers?

    what paper would be good for these drawings since you have to erase quite a bit?

    i usually use an ingres paper [fabriano or hahnemuhle] but i am not sure if it is durable enough.

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sflagirl
    hi,

    i would like to start a bargue drawing. i scanned in the plate from the book at a high res [600dpi] and printed it out on gloss paper. do you recommend professional printouts over home printers?

    what paper would be good for these drawings since you have to erase quite a bit?

    i usually use an ingres paper [fabriano or hahnemuhle] but i am not sure if it is durable enough.

    I think any good drawing paper is ok like the big Strathmore pads. I don't know what the Ingres paper looks like but I suggest using white colored paper. For erasing use kneaded erasers and the staedler white erasers.

  8. #82
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    allejo - I don't have that sargent book but I want it...it looks really cool! (see critique below)

    sflagirl - I would definitely definitely suggest using stonehenge paper for these...stonehenge paper is awesome and it takes a beating. You can get it HERE ...that's just one place...the pad is nice for bargue drawings cause you don't have to cut the paper. Work softly at first...light touch is always needed though.

    patdzon is right about being able to use any paper...but use stonehenge if you can...I use those erasers he said as well...can't wait to see the drawings.


    Here is an overdue critique for you allejo hehe...I think a lot of the problem comes in the fact that they were done in under an half an hour. The point of doing bargue drawings is not for a quick copy (although that may have other benefits)...the goal of a bargue drawing is to get it to look EXACTLY as the original drawing(s). You want every subtlety of line...you want all the values to be the same...you want all the edges of the values to be the same. These are really good for 30 minute studies but it isn't enough. You need to spend about 30 hours on each drawing and if you are asking yourself "how the heck can I spend 30 hours on one bargue drawing?" then you haven't grasped the concept...and you won't be able to draw from life effectively. You have to rub your kneaded eraser between your fingers till it gets a point on it and pick out all those little black spots in your value areas and lightly fill them in with a pencil in order for your transitions, etc... to look right. You need to look at the angle of your line and imagine dropping a marble onto it...where would the marble rest?...is it the same as the original drawing. Look at the critiques I gave to endregan earlier in order to get an idea of the type of things you have to look for when doing these. The point of these drawings are to make you look very very deeply and to discipline yourself to see the true nature of everything before your eyes. Don't simplify it...don't assume...get it to look exactly the same. People ask me how I get the casts to look real...I put down exactly what I see that's how it looks real. When I say exactly...I mean "exactly"...no simplification. So it's hard for me to critique these because they are only 30 minute studies so they will inherently have things wrong with them. I hope that helps...but if you just trust me and really really really push on one of them you will learn more than doing ten 30 minute studies. Also...don't paint at all right now...you are not ready. Painting is 90% drawing and you need to work on drawing first. I have to tell you this...you have a good work ethic...and you are choosing the right path. Plus...I like people with amibition...i like telling people to slow down...it means they are excited...and that's a very good thing...keep that! Just learn control as well. Hope that helped.

  9. #83
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    yeah dover books are very cheap..and i got all the collection of the master drawings..degas,rembrandt, sargeant,mike,leo,ingres,rubens..all those nice artists..i just study some of them for fun..
    i just read your critique..and well i did some other plates after the post..i put them in another thread but i will post them here..
    well this have taken a tad longer..5, 6 hours, others 3..is far from 30 hours..hehe..but im trying to slow down. and be more exact with my eye...
    this new ones i put them on an easel at a distance..with a string to mark the vertical, use some measurements with my pencil..and later with my eye....to get a better rendering i finish them off at my drawing table with the book ..on some i use one pencil on others different ones.
    .now i think i will pick up that stonehenge paper..i was using white regular print paper and it does not take much eraser.i dont erase much anyways..
    i will be starting another plate..one with a lots of folds it looks very challenging and well i will take my time...
    Mindy (i just killed your name hehe) i understand what you say to just not paint..but right now...im having fun..sometimes taking it serious sometimes not..so i just want to get confortable with oil a bit..(i did do the charts of richard schmidt (ook me like 2 months..which i take it you like him too , i will give his brushes a try..but i think i like rounds more..i do paint with filberts cause i bought them last year..)
    I am having an interview this saturday with Jeffrey Mims in carolina to see if they take me into their studio..it will be an atelier just like pantura..and yes they start with bargues..and i guess i will have to do those the proper way...hopefully i will start in october i can't wait.
    here are some of the new plates i have done..i being more careful now..
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread) the shading looks crappy because it was done from a distance..while at the easel..kinda of using your memory..thanks to padtzon i change my approach so now i finish them with my book side by side..
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    I will post my new one here..later
    i can see a bit of my eye getting better..after doing these longer bargues
    i always sketch on mondays
    the figure on a cafe that i pay 3 bucks..15 minutes a pose...is good enough..when drawing now..i imagine a vertical line..as well as focusing outside to inside...hmm bargue certainly new something hehe..

  10. #84
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    allejo - I'm so happy for you that you get to go to an atelier!!!! That's awesome! So many people don't get the chance to do that...you will love it! You should come to my atelier if you can hehe...that would be cool. These bargues are much much better and it's easier for me to critique them because of that. I think you are really seeing shapes very well...I see a lot of chiseled edges on the bargues...lots of little straight lines instead of making the thing like a blob of curvy lines. So that's really good. I think the problem you are having is in the shading...you are not paying attention to the edges as closely as you could. If you look at the belvedere torso on his back...the shadows are very very sectioned off into little pieces here and there. In the bargue book there are soft transitions on some parts and hard parts on other shadows. All these little subtleties describe form and describe how a thing exists in space...a lot of the shading that you have in these pieces is kind of confusing and it doesn't describe the form. You want the feeling that the back of the torso is really turning in space...and all those muscle undulations need to be treated with much care. Here is my bargue that is like your second one...i may have used different source material but you can see what I mean.

    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)

    Now this bargue is far from spectacular but you can see around the butt and other areas all the subtle shading that creates the look of a sphere or round surface. Most of the shading on the human form is not harsh...it is subtle and needs to be observed exactly as it is. When doing someone's portrait from life you will really see this come into play because if you create (by wrong observation) a different facial structure than they actually have it won't look like them...if that makes sense. These are looking good though my friend...keep going I admire your work ethic! It will pay off in the end for sure. Keep going and thinking and working.

  11. #85
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    thanks mindy, i just had the interview saturday..and well im in! I will start in october since i have things to do until then. the town is quiet and nice..just perfect to focus. This guy is awesome he is self taught and he helped with the curriculum in florence, studied fresco with Ben Long and had some guidance with Pietro Annigoni. He is a muralist and that is my goal at the end. They took me on a tour around their studio an is small and very clean and orderly..hehe something i will need to learn. His tecnique is extremely high I feel like a tiny ant but very excited.
    Yes i had plans to go to pantura (hans accepted my application) ,but im south american and the cold just kills me hehe. Sometime in the future I would love to visit your atelier and we could interchange ideas, I am in the same boat..lots of dedication and study for life ..hehe. I do admire your progress..simply amazing. thanks for your critique i will focus more on what you said
    oh here's the latest one i did . im gonna try the stonehenge paper on the next i do..on this one i try to imitate the hatching of the drawing following the form
    Bargue Drawing (Old Middle-Class Thread)
    Last edited by the_allejo05; July 26th, 2005 at 11:51 AM.

  12. #86
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    This one definitely look better but you can still push it! Oh hey I know that school I have seen it often! I realized once I went to the website that I had visited that website a ton of times. That looks really cool you will be able to do color studies, etc... some really cool stuff down the road besides casts. Should be really fun you will do awesome I know it.

  13. #87
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    Okay, this will look like an unbelievably stupid question, but still...

    About using the horizontal piece of thread, when laying it across the paper it never stays tight (unless I tape it down like the vertical piece of thread, but that defies its purpose as a measurement tool).
    Another solution would be to just hold it with both hands when measuring (like this), but then I can't hold my pencil anymore.

    What am I missing here ? I'm obviously doing something wrong, but I can't see it

  14. #88
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    haha...you are doing it exactly right wim...you have to grab the string with both hands. You have to find your mark and then drop the string...remember where that mark was and make a mark with your pencil. Then you grab the string again and check to that your mark is right. Doing a bargue is about building a visual memory too...so when you look at the model...still life...etc and you have to walk far away from your canvas...it won't matter cause you will be able to judge relationships properly. It's not a stupid question...I get that question from the people I am teaching as well...they all asked me that at the first lesson hehe. That's why a ruler is forbidden for being used to plot points...your mind won't be sharpened by that.

  15. #89
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    goshdarn wim! That looks mighty difficult for a your first Bargue! I suggest you find something more simpler. Feel free to go to this download link for some good scans of Bargues I got from some friends.

    http://dl2.filehd.com/download.php?get=968668622

    To anyone else who is interested, feel free!

  16. #90
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    I think I'm going to finish this one anyway, since I've already spent quite some time on the outline (still working on that). It's frustrating, but fun as well
    After that I'll try one of the bargues you provided (download in progress).

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