criticism of the non-paying section
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Thread: criticism of the non-paying section

  1. #1
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    criticism of the non-paying section

    Could we maybe put the "Non-Paying job listings" section in a different area than the employment section? I mean, if people are actually looking on here for work it can be a bit insulting to see a thread for people who don't want to pay them. The title is also a bit oxymoronic; if it is non-paying then it isn't a job. I'm not saying that people should not be able to bring in talent for non-paying projects. In fact, I totally understand that someone working on a mod that won't bring them any cash can't pay. I just think that posting a section for "volunteer projects that need artists" in a different area of the forums would be much better and make more sense, furthermore, it would not insult the more professional artists to see that the only section bringing in new threads is the one that they know isn't worth their time, and it would not send the message that people are "working for free" but instead that they are helping someone out, which is really what is is.

    If we do keep it in the Employment section could we please change its name to "indentured servitude" or something more fitting like that, just so its dead obvious what the artists are getting themselves into?

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    I'll tend to agree with you that it's not a good practice to suggest that artists will work for free. However, under the forum rules for employment postings it IS possible for "professional" work to end up in that forum (although rare it might be). As an example, if an legit comic writer is looking for new talent to pitch a new story idea, it has to go in the non paying forum because there is no up front payment and no guarentees the story will get picked up (even if it's chances are excellent).

    I agree that 95% of the posts in that forum aren't worth reading, let alone responding to, but I don't see any help for it. There are lot of paying jobs in the other employment forums that aren't really worth the time either, unless you are just desperate for some experience.

    In the end I'm not sure they harm professionals much. Those who take those jobs most likely don't have professional level skills, and if they do they'll likely quickly get burnt out busting their butts for empty promises. A bit insulting, sure, but it takes little to ignore them.

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    I tink that the section should be called "Spec Work". And if the job doesn't even offer a percentage at the time of possible publication, then it should be in a whole other section entirely. I think a "Volunteer Section" might be good, or a section devoted only for jobs that can compensate with exposure.

    I just feel that "Non-paying Jobs" is a bit too broad. I mean, there is a difference between doing spec work with an award winning writer and doing concept art for a Star Wars fan film made by a 16 year old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keith_v View Post
    I mean, there is a difference between doing spec work with an award winning writer and doing concept art for a Star Wars fan film made by a 16 year old.
    I agree 100%, but I don't see a realistic way for a moderator to pre judge how credible a job is. It's a pain, but it's something each artist looking for work has to determine for themselves I think. Check their webpage (and if they don't have one, or it is still 75% "under construction," take that as a sign of how serious they are).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dweller View Post
    As an example, if an legit comic writer is looking for new talent to pitch a new story idea, it has to go in the non paying forum because there is no up front payment and no guarentees the story will get picked up (even if it's chances are excellent).
    I'd think that in that example the writer should at least be able to pay /something/ up front. I mean it doesn't have to be big, but just a payment for the art with a promise of more if it sells. The writer should think of it like any other business investment. It costs money to get a publisher, it costs money to get a copyright, and a lot of other things cost money as well. Hiring an artist should be one of those things. If it turns out the book doesn't sell then you just have to eat it on the investment, just like with all those other investments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dweller
    ...As an example, if an legit comic writer is looking for new talent to pitch a new story idea, it has to go in the non paying forum because there is no up front payment and no guarentees the story will get picked up (even if it's chances are excellent).
    a legit writer could and most likely would pitch his "un-drawn story" to a publisher, and the publisher would find an artist. if he were to self publish, you have to ask why the drawings are free when the publishing cost is in the $1000's?
    websites are a good sign, but i rarely even look unless the dev team has a previously released a title/mod. i thought that these mod teams would provide good experience once, but after a few months,they usually die out and you realize you wasted your time drawing stuff you probably dont like.
    just my thoughts.

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    We think that it's okay to post non-paying projects in the employment section. Whether individual artists (or studios, for that matter) decide to respond or not is their own issue.

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    I don't think anyone here needs hand holding. I doubt anyone is forced to work for free, especially considering the other subfora, where they can get paid instead.

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    As a startup for a new company with zero resources at this time I find the section very beneficial. Of course it's obviously up to the indiviual posters to be honest about their intentions and communicate their needs to any artist. For us we have found a lot of excellent volunteers and I've tried to maintain what the compensation will be even if it's not money. On the flip side I don't see anything wrong with renaming the forum or creating a separate section for volunteer work.

    In addition, I currently am trying to find a Creative Director or Chief Creative Officer to help fill out our founding management team. How do you distinguish between what "compensation" is and still get your request in front of the professional audience even if compensation isn't a dollar figure? There is definitely a balance between finding the high end artists for a professional project even when the startup company can only offer equity within the company to begin with. In some ways I look at it like a contest. If you want to enter an art contest with a $1,000. prize, you're going to do the work for free with the potential to win the prize money. Startup companies may not be able to pay up front, but the payout at the end could be much better in the long run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boohag View Post
    In some ways I look at it like a contest. If you want to enter an art contest with a $1,000. prize, you're going to do the work for free with the potential to win the prize money.
    The artist can do whatever interruptation, style or medium within the framework of a contest and does not have to do revisions or deal with other "co-worker/bosses" views of the work. I'd do a contest for a portfolio piece before I'd do volunteer work just about everytime. I want to get PAID to have to listen that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirana View Post
    I want to get PAID to have to listen that.

    I hear you on that point

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dweller View Post
    I agree that 95% of the posts in that forum aren't worth reading, let alone responding to..

    Some of them are so ludicrously demanding, unreasonable, and unrealistic, that they are very funny!

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcorc View Post
    Some of them are so ludicrously demanding, unreasonable, and unrealistic, that they are very funny!
    Hehe, well I agree with the first part of that statement. I find them often to be so niave that it's frustrating to read. You kind of want to lecture them and say "Hey! You don't ask any other profession to work for you and tell them there's no money in it, but some 'great opportunities' so don't bring that crap here!" In my opinion if you can't make a professional offer of SOME sort then don't bring your job to a professional forum! There is also an attitude sometimes put out that the artist is a somewhat unimportant part of their equation, that finding one is about the same as going to the hardware store for a big box of nails... just find the best price! Sure, they want someone GOOD, as long as they are cheap or free.

    Of course all of the above frustration is mostly reserved for people who are clearly intending to make a profit on some business venture (Tshirt company or something as an example). People who are genuine about wanting a creative partner are different, although still a little frustrating at times. We're artists, we are generally full of our own ideas. If you want a creative partner you really do need to bring something to the table. At the very least you need to get us excited about your project and make us believe you are serious.

    One suggestion to potential job offers who can't offer much in the way of money. Offer other things! As an example, when I shoot models and I don't have extra cash, I'll offer other things. I've done photo retouching on their modeling portfolios. I've shot extra photos for their portfolios for them and made cds. I'll email or print off the finished artwork for them to enjoy. I'll do a little graphic design for their club night, friend's band, or whatever. If you really want something done, even if you can't offer cash, odds are there is something you can barter to make things fair.

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    My new pet peeve from that and the other forums are the posts that require a ridiculous amount of work on the artist's part BEFORE hiring, as well as a condesending tone and demands for only PROFESSIONAL, SERIOUS people. A la "Do what I ask in numbers 1-20, exactly as I want it and if you don't you're stupid and I delete you!"

    #1 I am not a child. #2 You are offering little to no money and yet you want the security of an artist not running off to a paying job in the middle of your MMORPG Opus. Uhm, what? If I gave you my "amazing opportunity" to write for my personal project, and then a legit company came along with bucks, would you stick around?!

    You want a stable artist, you gotta bring something to the table worth sticking to. That may not be money, but for the love of light you better have the right attitude!! Why would I work for you for free if you try to boss me around like I "work" for you instead of collab with you? Bah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirana View Post
    My new pet peeve from that and the other forums are the posts that require a ridiculous amount of work on the artist's part BEFORE hiring, as well as a condesending tone and demands for only PROFESSIONAL, SERIOUS people. A la "Do what I ask in numbers 1-20, exactly as I want it and if you don't you're stupid and I delete you!"

    #1 I am not a child. #2 You are offering little to no money and yet you want the security of an artist not running off to a paying job in the middle of your MMORPG Opus. Uhm, what? If I gave you my "amazing opportunity" to write for my personal project, and then a legit company came along with bucks, would you stick around?!

    You want a stable artist, you gotta bring something to the table worth sticking to. That may not be money, but for the love of light you better have the right attitude!! Why would I work for you for free if you try to boss me around like I "work" for you instead of collab with you? Bah.


    Don't you just love that they want the best of the best with little to no money at all and then many of them wonder why they can't get a good artist to work for them. I mean I asked alot of them would you walk into a auto dealers place and demand their best luxury car and offer then nothing but exposure or very little money? No I doubt it.

    Most of these people never want a sample sketch or a flat color image. They always pick out the best work in your gallery and say I want you to do images like this. Now for me those top images are past commissions in which my clients paid good money for. What makes you think I'm going to give you the same thing for little or nothing?

    Their never really nice to you either, makes me kinda upset how some of them try to boss the artist around and sometimes even talk down to them.

    If that's the case I'd whether do my own work. Many of these guys have no idea the cost of time and supplies an artist has to spend in order to make a good piece of art.

    I don't know how many times I've heard a wanna be employer say it's not about the money it's about the passion. I can't pay my bills and buy my supplies on my passion. Can anyone else?

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