Sketchbook: The Notorious White Moth's Lair
 
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    The Notorious White Moth's Lair

    if this works, it's my official first art post
    please let me know what you think--constructive criticism is always welcome

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    Last edited by notorious white moth; August 22nd, 2010 at 08:23 PM. Reason: fixing thread title
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    Hi, Notorious, it's difficult to give criticism with only one sketch, I would like to see more of your work. You have started and that's important.
    Seeing this one work I would dare to tell you to work on anatomy, it's difficult to understand it as it appear to have two pairs of arms in opposite directions.
    Dont be shy and post more works.

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    I advice you to work on the anatomy.So when you do start with a sketch lines very finely (almost invisible) without using the tire, not until you clear the form and decide that you like then you are the bold lines, but not everywhere. Somewhere put under intense line,somewhere almost not visible and so ...My personal opinion is don't put too dark (black)lines for sketch.
    But you must to know i give this advices only from one your sketch,post more for better advices.
    Be rock

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    Return of the Notorious White Moth

    I know I've been gone for a while, but my previous experience here left me feeling overwhelmed and out of place; here are some recent sketches (within the last week); the model sheet's a first draft, the other two are second drafts. I'd like to see what the community thinks.

    The first is an exercise in foreshortening, one of my biggest weaknesses--her back paw's too high and her crotch is too small; she's supposed to be holding a pair of arming swords, but for now I'm focused on the figure--props can be added later. The second one, her eyes are a little off center and her right hand (her right) is too small, plus I have yet to add her tail. The hands on the second and third leave a lot to be desired, the hands on the first are oversimplified--because drawing hands is another of my biggest weaknesses

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    The Challenge

    I'm trying to understand the advice I come across here so often, "draw from life"--what it means, how it works, how it's supposed to help me. I've already noted that I have difficulty with hands and foreshortening, so in a fit bitterness, frustration, and self-loathing, I've decided to challenge myself to do 100 sketches of my left hand this month--here are 15 through 26. Something else I have difficulty with--how do I do a study of something that doesn't stay still long enough to be studied? Trying to draw one of my mother's two cats, unless they're asleep, I get one--at most two--lines before they move and what I've drawn no longer applies. Then what? This has happened too many times to count.

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    just a quick addendum--how do I fix the thread name? it's supposed to be "White", not "Whit"

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    Hey there, you've got a good start! Your hands are looking ok, but obviously still need some work. My advice would be to buy a few anatomy books (If you haven't already), my favorite book for anatomy is by George B. Bridgman, the name of it is Constructive Anatomy. The book also has a nice section specifically on the subject of hands/wrists. The best advice of all is to just keep doing what your doing, you will see improvement! Keep it up

    "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
    Matthew 7:3-5

    Sketchbook

    Email>>MRRhoades@rocketmail.com
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    it's supposed to be a dog--critiques please? (why are muzzles so hard to draw!!)

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    so far you're starting out reall good, i understand what you're saying about your anatomy, personally i would suggest anything by Burne Hogarth, he helped me so much.

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    jpg even though I don't like the auto-aliasing; fixed the muzzle and added a ground line to make sure the legs are the same length, not sure what to do with the ear

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    Check your PM's.

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    self-portrait--eyes too low, I blame that on my glasses slipping <.<

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    My high school drawing class taught me that there is a right away to draw from a model: contour drawing. Today, I learned that that is BULLSH*T. Today I discovered gesture drawing. Here's a sketch of my mom's stupid cat. Enjoy ^,,^

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    Prelim sketch for DSG 1528--the scanner's old, everything scans that pale

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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious white moth View Post
    My high school drawing class taught me that there is a right away to draw from a model: contour drawing. Today, I learned that that is BULLSH*T. Today I discovered gesture drawing. Here's a sketch of my mom's stupid cat. Enjoy ^,,^
    Do not be so quick to judge at what an education in art has to offer your techniques. You should pick and choose the things from each technique that work for you while keep applying yourself to the methods that you know best.

    Right now, what you need to do is draw a lot. You are only submitting 3-4 pieces of work at the moment... and I dont know if you are drawing from your mind or drawing from life... but really it depends on how serious you are about what you're doing. Since you've found yourself here, I am a bit confused on how to take you, serious or not.

    Look around your house, set up a still life, draw it. I dont care if its a door nob or all of the brooms in your house stacked in to a pile. DRAW. Draw a lot, draw often, keep a sketchbook on you, and draw at least 5 hours a day... THEN you should worry about technique.

    Let your pictures speak all the words that need to be said.

    Ringling 2013
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    What I'm saying is that I was taught that contour drawing is the one and only right way to draw and that any other way is wrong, which severely limited what I was capable of doing as an artist; this goat guy that pm'd me the other day gave me the same bad advice. I am absolutely serious, which is why I'm here in the first place, and I've been drawing both from observation and from imagination, following the advice I've gotten here on this forum. I'm not posting everything I draw, I'm posting what I feel best exemplifies the work I've been doing. For example, I mentioned above that I'm doing 100 sketches of my hand. So far I've done about 80, but I've only posted one page of those. I've also been drawing from photos and doing various sketches from imagination. As for five hours a day, there are other things going on in my life besides drawing, and that seems a pretty arbitrary number, but I am devoting my free time to drawing as much as reasonably possible.

    Last edited by notorious white moth; December 17th, 2009 at 10:19 PM.
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    The tl;dr version:
    •I came here to ask for help, not to be insulted for needing it.
    •Telling me to spend more time than I have on something that already leaves me exhausted doesn't help me.
    •Telling me in a patronizing tone basic information that I already know doesn't help me.
    •Giving me advice on my present situation that cannot in any way be applied to my present situation doesn't help me.
    •I've come back, risking another profitless emotional beating, to ask for help, not to be insulted for needing it.
    The long version:
    It is not worth my time and effort to scan and post every single failed attempt at a doodle to show to a community that has made it quite clear that their only interest in me is as a laughing stock. I came here seeking a serious, semi-professional, education-oriented environment, and have only been met with accusations that I am not good enough because I lack what I am here to learn in the first place. That is why I have not posted anything in the last several months. I have made a point of drawing at least something every single day this year, and am seeing no significant improvement. Included with this post is a small collection of recent sketches, over which the question "now what?" seems to loom like Damocles' sword.
    Anyone who wishes to respond with patronizing comments about
    •fundamentally unrealistic time-management expectations given the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual demands of drawing and the fact that I do have to occasionally do such things as eat, sleep, and exercise;
    •a lack of contour drawing, gesture drawing, line quality, basic shapes, negative space, or any other elemental details I already know about that are of use primarily in reproducing those same characteristics in existing works if and when they can be found and identified--with occasional application to drawing from life if one is not particularly concerned about the product bearing any resemblance to the subject matter whatsoever--or in refining work that is already up to snuff
    is as far as I am concerned, an arrogant, elitist, immature douchnozzle who can please go fuck themself. These aspects DO NOT EXIST in drawings from imagination that have not yet been drawn. I am not here to be patronized, derided, or insulted. I am here to learn from better artists how to become a better artist myself. I will ask again in response to a previous post: If I were not absolutely serious, would I be here, especially given the kind of welcome I've come to expect?

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    Last edited by notorious white moth; May 15th, 2010 at 04:31 AM. Reason: tl;dr
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    If I'm defensive, it's because I've been taught to expect to be under attack. I suppose what I've been trying to say is that none of the well-meaning but ill-presented advice I keep seeing here acknowledges--nor even seems to realize--that parlaying the skills used in drawing from life into drawing from imagination is a skill set unto itself.
    That said, why am I been talked down to like a child who's decided to pick art as a random hobby, rather than seeing even half the encouragement that this user has?
    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188328

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    Ok, since these Bargue plates--that I had never heard of until last night--are suddenly supposed to be some sort of be-all end-all universal standard for what's considered art, maybe with this I can actually get some legitimate feedback instead of just having basic terminology I already know regurgitated at me.

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    Hey man. Not everyone is out there to get you. There have been many responses here that are more than helpful. The problem is you're not taking them in. Many people go back to the basics, anatomy etc in order to understand complex forms. I am a beginner and have been drawing boxes, spheres and many anatomy sketches. I, like you, don't see the need to post everything as it takes a while to photograph and upload images. Uploading pages and pages of shapes would be silly.

    I suggest bridgman like rhoses, his book makes more sense to me than any other anatomy book out there. Your lines look rushed and way too sketchy and it is to my understanding that bargue plates are meant to take weeks of work. They're also meant to teach shade, values etc. Your piece here has 2 values and somewhat rushed lines. Take more time when doing something like this. It won't help you if you don't learn anything in the process.

    Ok, swallow your pride for a second: you do not know the basics yet. I don't know the basics yet. Upon accepting that you don't understand the basics and begin studying you will improve. I am not patronizing you, I am not attacking you. I am telling you what you really need to do. Draw fruit if you don't like drawing spheres, draw tables if you don't like drawing boxes. With respect from drawing from life I've found that it helps to flick back and forth from the object and line things up with one another. For example, if something has a circular form in it find what size it is in relation to the other things in that form. If that makes sense. It also helps to draw a box in perspective first and then draw in relation to that box. Loomis covers this I believe.

    Attitude is #1 for improvement. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. I wouldn't have taken the time to type this if I didn't think it'd help you.

    "It is well known that a vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a halfbrick in the path of the bicycle of history." ~ Terry Pratchett

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  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Prion For This Useful Post:


  24. #22
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    So I spent a week or two studying anatomy and it has helped me a lot--but it's also highlighted some other underlying problems.

    There's an issue of proportion in this particular image, in relation to the character's torso. How do I give a figure wide hips and a narrow chest--so that they actually look female--without either expanding the hips or compressing the ribcage to ridiculous extremes? I don't know how to fix this without either dismissing everything I know about the human body, compromising the integrity of the composition, or both.

    "make measurements to make your proportions more accurate"
    but this was drawn from imagination: I can't measure something that doesn't exist to be measured.

    "so use references"
    which runs into the brick wall of relevance, because how is a reference image supposed to help me draw anything other than that reference image? This is, to the best of my knowledge, an original--if uninteresting--composition of an original character. Unless I can somehow find a reference image that is for all intents and purposes identical to what I want to draw--in which case why draw it at all when I can just use the reference--I don't see how using references can help me.

    "Keep practicing"
    I am, every day

    "keep studying anatomy"
    an academic understanding of anatomy doesn't help me if I don't know how to put it into practice.

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    Last edited by notorious white moth; August 19th, 2010 at 01:23 AM.
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    oh by the way the difference in quality is because I got a new scanner. I hope I've made it clear by now that this is not intended as a showcase: I'm here to learn. So what exactly am I learning by sitting here waiting to be ignored?

    There are two key questions in my previous post:
    1: How do I fix the problems with the shoulders, chest, and waist without ruining the hips, arms, and legs?
    2: How is working from reference images supposed to help me draw anything other than reproductions of those reference images?

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    Proving a point

    Here are two drawings: a freehand drawing of a teapot and another drawing of the same teapot using a reference image with similar shapes and proportions to a teapot, but not itself a teapot. This is to illustrate the previously discussed relevance problem in trying to draw something from a reference image that is dissimilar from the intended product.
    Here's the reference image: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/chicken.jpg
    Here are the drawings:

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    Logically there are a grand total of two possibilities for each of these questions: either I am the only person who has ever had the problem in question or every single person who doesn't has learned how to resolve it. If the prior, I'm wasting time trying to draw in the first place. If the latter, countless users here are wasting my time by not answering my questions.

    *How does one use a reference image to draw something that is not that image?
    *How do I fix the torso and shoulders without ruining the limbs and hips?
    *What's the point in posting here in search of help if I'm not going to receive any feedback?

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    The reason I'm bumping myself is because that's the best solution I've found to the catch-22 I'm trapped in of having to be the artist I need help becoming to get the help I need.
    *How does one use a reference image to draw something that is not that image?
    *How do I fix the torso and shoulders without ruining the limbs and hips?
    *What's the point in posting here in search of help if I'm not going to receive any feedback?

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    If I'm going about this the wrong way, where should I be looking for help? I don't have the resources to go back to school, and I've posted on the mentoring board on these very forums to no avail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious white moth View Post
    How do I give a figure wide hips and a narrow chest--so that they actually look female--without either expanding the hips or compressing the ribcage to ridiculous extremes? I don't know how to fix this without either dismissing everything I know about the human body, compromising the integrity of the composition, or both.
    I think what you want to achieve is a standard feminine "sand clock" figure... meaning that its not the ribcage you need to compress but the waist, the hips and sholders should be of similar width

    some references:
    http://erieye-stock.deviantart.com/a...alenude&qo=128

    http://mjranum-stock.deviantart.com/.../1854061&qo=87

    you might also want to make those hips longer and smoother instead of short and bulky like volleyballs

    "make measurements to make your proportions more accurate"
    but this was drawn from imagination: I can't measure something that doesn't exist to be measured.
    a typical human body has generic measurements you can apply to any drawing (and adjust them as needed) normally the head-width method is used..

    a lil example, too busy to find smth better
    http://snigom.deviantart.com/art/Fem...g/anatomy&qo=7

    "so use references"
    which runs into the brick wall of relevance, because how is a reference image supposed to help me draw anything other than that reference image? This is, to the best of my knowledge, an original--if uninteresting--composition of an original character. Unless I can somehow find a reference image that is for all intents and purposes identical to what I want to draw--in which case why draw it at all when I can just use the reference--I don't see how using references can help me.
    humans/humanoids are universal, if you have something in mind, find a reference with the pose and body type you need, draw the anatomy/shapes off that photo and add the clothing/features you want to make the unique character you want, even professionals do that.
    Drawing references also gives you practice where you can see what youre doing and over time you will learn how to draw the body so you can eventually do it out of mind... i bet my ass that most artists have started like that... first learn to draw by copying your surroundings and once they have the skills, they start to draw what ever they like out of imagination


    "keep studying anatomy"
    an academic understanding of anatomy doesn't help me if I don't know how to put it into practice.
    dump the anime anatomy and learn the basic figure/structure/perspective.

    once you can draw a figure without struggling you should probably see it yourself how you can put it into practice.


    Not criticizing or anything, just want to help you find your way.
    as for feedback, conceptart is huge and super fast community where a lot of feedback is gained through social interaction and giving feedback yourself, it can be tough but it is rewarding, though there are also other options if youre not used with the pace in here

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    Quote Originally Posted by equilerex View Post
    dump the anime anatomy and learn the basic figure/structure/perspective.
    Did you read or just skim? I said I have an academic understanding of human anatomy. I said I've been studying anatomy. I said I spent weeks studying anatomy. I was getting hung up on the whole idea of anatomy because most of the art-related sources I've come across present anatomy as a holistic study, which is the exact opposite of what anatomy is. The word "anatomy" is from the Greek for "part". I dedicated weeks to learning the basic shapes and relative positions of the bones and superficial muscles of the human body, and do my best to draw them as accurately as I can both alone and in context. Also, what does anime have to do with any of this? See, it's for comments like that that I end up feeling like I'm under attack--like I don't belong here. As for your advice about social interaction and giving feedback, if I had any to give I would. I've already explained in a previous post that I've gone through the forums looking for anything to comment on and found myself completely over my head. The actual advice I appreciate, though you did contradict yourself: "a typical human body has generic measurements you can apply to any drawing" "you might also want to make those hips longer and smoother instead of short and bulky". So which is it? Are the proportions generic and universal or do they vary from one figure to another?

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