P.O.W.! Challenge 1--Getting Even (Deadline extended) - Page 3
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  1. #61
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    thanks ilaekae for the info and sample pages. it is allow to post wips and notes in here? if not im sorry, i will take down the posts.

    ok some notes, rough dialogues, structure and sketches.
    probably fourth pages are too much for this story, at any case i have to review every panel to leave only the necesary.

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    principal character face test
    ok this is the last attachment before the finals(i don't want to pollute the entire thread)

    thanks for watching and c&c are welcome

    Last edited by DIMAGYAN; January 19th, 2008 at 04:42 PM. Reason: character design
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  2. #62
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    @ Dimagyan

    do you always do these things as pre-work to comic pages? It looks so professional. Are your sketch page templates according to the sizes we were given for the final pages?
    Sorry for asking, I'm just interested.

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  3. #63
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    you guys are getting tripped up on the mental aspect of the process too much, save the headache for the completion aspect, as it's far more tedious.

    i suppose its interesting just to see how people work in different methods, i just let it grow as i go, knowing that the act of creating will flesh out the finer details, instead of trying to resolve them all before diving the project.

    i did sketch out the pages in advance, only because i wasn't near a computer when i had the initial idea and wanted to get a grasp of the pacing and closure of the panels.

    here's the sketch for the first page... it's really nothing fancy, i'd post the other two... but i don't want to give away any surprises.

    [my wireless internet is down, so i gotta hoof it 3 blocks to campus just to upload this stuff. i should have the 2nd page finished tonight, and the final page by the end of the weekend]

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    Last edited by Grief; January 18th, 2008 at 05:20 PM.
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  4. #64
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    ok it is confusing, but can anyone show one that is actually done with the right requirment and stuff. Like an example, cause i have ideas but i'm getting confuse...i'm i thinking to much or something....


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  5. #65
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    Dimagyan: The method looks pretty good, pretty organized, im far more messy and random.
    I begin with ideas on the visuals (setting, design, props, expressions), and then work my way around the writting to justify the elements i choosed. If it works? cant say really, probably not,but doesnt hurt experimenting.

    I was thinking, your main character could use just a couple more phrases, could sound as cliche but maybe a little of inner dialog during the beating scene. sort of emoish, just a though , you can milk out a lot of interest with his expression, will be cool to see your final design.

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  6. #66
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    Oni Rem. I am pretty sure you can get away with having all the art work fit inside the 6x9 live art area. Doing that will result in a printed page having a white margin all the way around the panels, which is a little bit old school, but at least it can be done. Dimagyan's wip is done that way. Notice how everything that counts is inside the innermost rectangle which is the live art area. The bleed area and especially the trim area become very important considerations if you want to have "special effects" such as open panels where the background environment runs clear off the page or something. You can keep doing the art out into there, but the closer you get to that trim mark the more likely something gets chopped off by a print cutting machine. After you cross the trim area and are out in the bleed area, you are just drawing stuff that will appear if the machine screws up and cuts outside the trim mark.

    If you are scanning traditional drawings and your scanner tries to crop for you like mine does, then color in the margin with black. That way the scanner won't decide to crop that area because the stupid thing thinks having nothing there means that area is supposed to be cropped.

    Last edited by arttorney; January 18th, 2008 at 05:50 PM.
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  8. #67
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    zeitwolf: well not always, i have made more spontaneus pages, but i prefer work all the ideas and sketches before the final work.
    the size are the one posted by ilaekae, in fact is the same sample page shrinked just to post in here.

    Oni Rem: what is your confussion exactly? if it is the page size, in the read first thread ilaekae post a guide and also a sample with the details.

    grief:there is many ways of creating comics. i like to think in the narration and composition, panels and story before, because i like to play with that elements in the preliminar stage.also is the fun part for me
    but as you say is good to see how others work

    Renegade89:thanks. well i have to review everything.right now is just a quick sketches to play with the idea. it could be inner toughts for the character...i will se how to show his reactions.
    personally i don't like to justify things with the story, i like more add things in order to make the story. but if it work for you then go for it. everyone have a method, as long you have fun and entusiasm, i think

    Last edited by DIMAGYAN; January 18th, 2008 at 05:56 PM.
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  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by arttorney View Post
    Oni Rem. I am pretty sure you can get away with having all the art work fit inside the 6x9 live art area. Doing that will result in a printed page having a white margin all the way around the panels, which is a little bit old school, but at least it can be done.......

    If you are scanning traditional drawings and your scanner tries to crop for you like mine does, then color in the margin with black. That way the scanner won't decide to crop that area because the stupid thing thinks having nothing there means that area is supposed to be cropped.
    So what's wrong with margins, 'ey? I LIKE margins! ("Old school", grumble grumble...) Er, and what kind of scanner are you using, there? Sounds like a pretty annoying model, might want to get hold of a better one if/when possible... (I've been using a Mikrotek scanner and it's been very good to me so far, and is reasonably affordable.)

    But yeah... Oni Rem, it doesn't need to be too confusing. Don't fuss about the measurements too much, just download the handy-dandy template linked in the "Read This First" thread, slap that behind your work, and make sure that everything that MUST be visible stays inside the innermost 6x9 rectangle.

    If you work on paper first, and you work up in size, just make sure the important part of your drawing can fit within a ratio of 6x9 (so, if I have my maths right, 6x9", or 9x13.5", or 12x18", or 15x22.5". Just draw a box the size you want, as a general guide.) Then when you prep the digital page, put the template on a layer behind your drawing and then adjust the size and position of the drawing as necessary until all the important parts fit inside the innermost 6x9 rectangle.

    By the way, a quick-and-dirty way to find the ratio of something is, make a file in Photoshop of the size that you need to scale up or down from (so, make a file that's 6x9 inches, for instance.) Then in "image size", scale it the percentage you want using "percent" (150%, 200%, whatever) and then see what the resulting measurements are.

    That's also a great way to see what the decimal measurements would be, too. Make a file using inch measurements, then switch the dropdown to show centimeters and see what it says.

    Yeah, maths for artists... XD

    Last edited by Gwenevere; January 18th, 2008 at 07:48 PM.
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  11. #69
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    I'm all for the pictures without words idea I thought it was such a good one to mention again... but i understand the training involved as well.

    I have a story in mind that I've been wanting to storyboard for a long time

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  12. #70
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    Ha ha. I knew I could get a rise out of somebody.

    Yeah. I got a Lexmark x75. Its software knows better than me about where to crop, and the lame ass little roller thing (I think there's only one) is for shit at pulling paper through when I print. Strangely though, that's my favorite software for resizing images other than a freeware I once had about ten years ago.

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  13. #71
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    i never done comic professionaly so hell i don't know where to start, so i should follow how DIMIGYAN does his format???


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  14. #72
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    If the format confuses you, you can shop to art stores, they might selling already formated comic bristols with non-reproductible guides printed on it. Blue Line Pro is one of the brands who makes it, you can even buy some online :www.bluelinepro.com. If you are like me and erase often, they are to be avoid meh.

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  15. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oni Rem View Post
    i never done comic professionaly so hell i don't know where to start, so i should follow how DIMIGYAN does his format???
    not really. the only requirement is the format of the page. in the read first thread there is a link with the page samples made by ilaekae.
    what Gwenevere said is a good idea(using the sample behind and put the panels inside the live area.)

    i used the sample page, and made all the panels inside the live area.
    just take the precaution of follow the size of the sample.

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  16. #74
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    I've got my story pretty well worked out... I just need to figure out my panels now! I'm liking everyones work so far! Will be some good stories!

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  17. #75
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    Oni Rem- you could look at some comics or graphic novels to see how they arrange panels, but I think you know enough already to do a fine job. Part of what is nice about these challenges is that there is planned improvement over time. As we do them and crits get traded about, you can learn the subtle things like "for this kind of story make the panels flow like that. Therefore such and such emotional response is generated, and for that kind of story you need more close ups" etc. etc.

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  18. #76
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    I did a PS template you ppl can use, I didn't write on it the measures but the colors should be self-explanatory. Save it because I'm not going to post it in each thread!

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  20. #77
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    Well, I'm having a little trouble with the human face at a distance. I always seem to over complicate things when details aren't needed. When I put almost no details in, how would I make it look right. The panel to the right would show the woman shocked, but I don't know how to do it. Can anyone help?

    (Sorry about the background on panel 2, I still need a LOT of work on environments. -.-;)

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  21. #78
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    Ilaekae is offline P.O.W.! Leader, Complete Idiot, Super Moderator Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Ryuartyi, maybe this will help a bit. It's VERY simplified, so I'm not saying to do this specifically, but it shows how you get an expression across with minimal line work. You're working in a very small space, and simplification is almost a requirement, no matter how realistic you're working. My examples are a bit cartoonish, but the same can be done with a realistic approach.

    Think "Fewest lines necessary" and exaggeration and you're on the right track.

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    thanks ilaekae!

    I happen to be REALLY stoked about the opportunity to work in this activity! Format issues aside, one question i have is about developing a comics workflow. If P.O.W. is biweekly, is there some way that we should be trying to develop the concept... i.e.... 1 week of roughs, 2 days of reproducing layouts, 4 days of pencilling / inking the finished product? Reason i ask is that i've been producing my own comic for a year now and it seems like for every mini story i do i end up doing it differently. the one thing that doesn't change is having to get my mind wrapped around how difficult it can be to get this all setup. anyway, just wondering. What is the best way to preliminarily plan a page?

    And a side note:
    Even though the size requirements here are not consistent with the wacky-ass-slightly-more-squarish-aspect-ratio i publish in Rice on the other, i'd LOVE to put some of the better entries that come out of this activity into the winter edition of Rice on the Other. There'd be a little white (ahhhh) or black (you emo ne'er do wells) space on either side of your art, but we can deal with that as the chips fall. For your trouble, I will send you a complimentary copy of one of the extremely limited edition of 100, hand-numbered, hand-assembled and gorgeous books. I send these to art directors, magazines, friends, and cool arts-oriented people all over the world, so it'd be a good way to get published in what essentially amounts to a quarterly anthology. And i do expect quality work since this is my rice-puddin-baby.

    anyways, looking forward to taking part! if anyone has questions about RØTØ please don't hesitate to contact me.

    chee,
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    Last edited by guggemmaneuver; January 21st, 2008 at 02:46 AM.
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  24. #80
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    ryuartyi you may also want to concider hand gestures, and body position. for example, often when a woman looks suprised or shocked, she will often raise both her hands around head hight, often with one or sometimes two hands covering her mouth slightly, or another example is rage or anger, would have someone with clenched fists and clenched teeth or just a tight jaw. Type suprised or shocked in google images and see what comes up. or even look in a mirror and act out the role of being shocked to see the results.

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  25. #81
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    "If P.O.W. is biweekly, is there some way that we should be trying to develop the concept... i.e.... 1 week of roughs, 2 days of reproducing layouts, 4 days of pencilling / inking the finished product? Reason i ask is that i've been producing my own comic for a year now and it seems like for every mini story i do i end up doing it differently. the one thing that doesn't change is having to get my mind wrapped around how difficult it can be to get this all setup. anyway, just wondering. What is the best way to preliminarily plan a page?"

    Good question, Guggy. We built the overlap in to allow people to basically "think" about the second challenge while they actually executed the second one. This pretty much fits your scenario above. Everybody has different working habits, so the flow of specific steps may be different for everyone. I like to hassle in my mind with something for at least a couple days to a week before i put anything down on paper. Then it's mechanical from that point on because I have a good solid 90% idea of where I should be going.

    For some people, hassling out the pencils stage is going to be the problem because they may have problems with basic layout skills, but inking it is a snap because they don't see that end as a problem. For others, the reverse might be true. Some just haven't learned how to think "literaturally" because they never had to do it before, but some are actually better writers than they are artists (not an uncommon problem in the cartooning world... )

    I'm thinking what will happen is that if we can stick with it through the various ways of approaching this entire mess, we'll gradually work out our own rhythm for producing a few pages that is exactly what WE need, and that will take time.

    I like your offer of publishing. The different formats will give you 3/4" to an inch along the edge... Any chance you have some pithy copy or dirty poems that can be run up the side at 90°?

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  26. #82
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    "(you emo ne'er do wells) "

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    Alright, I have my first page done. I'm new to this, so I'm wondering if I can get some feedback early so the rest of the comic turns out better. I know I have glaring anatomy problems, but I'm studying to get the fixed. If there's any way I can get the story across better, please let me know (I just hope I don't have to explain anything except for dialouge, that would just make me a bad artist.)

    I know it's not the best, or good, but I just hope I can get the professional help on here to make my comics become exponentially better.

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    Ryuartyi: Is this the final rough or the FINAL final page? I'll know better what to crit if I know that for starters (don't want to nitpick about finish if this is a rough)...

    Some quick comments off the bat, though - I think I can tell pretty well what's going on (although I'm not sure if the little floating thing to the left of the building in the first panel is something important - a bit hard to tell what it is.) However, in the panel where the rope is dropping down, you should probably either have it higher than the lady, or have it cut across her somewhere in the middle. Right now it looks like it's perched on top of her head, which is awkward...

    Also, perhaps it would be more dynamic if the guy outside the window in the last panel is seen at slightly closer range, and/or at an angle and off-center, or even show the whole view in that panel at an angle?

    Last edited by Gwenevere; January 21st, 2008 at 09:21 PM.
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    Dimagyan: Like your progress so far (eheh, you're further along than me, that's for sure!) Nice to see how you're working everything out so thoroughly... Love the character sketches - if I have a preference, I kind of like the face immediately to the left of the notes, and the face right below the notes.

    If you don't mind my taking liberties, here's some suggested grammar corrections for the dialogue and title - feel free to ignore them if the characters are supposed to sound less grammatical and more slangy!

    "He doesn't need this now..."
    "What happened?... Did you forget something?"
    "The Flight of a Bird"

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    Gwenevere: thanks!. yes i have the same preference, the "casting" selection is now between those two faces.i want to make some sort of innocence kind of face, or ingenuous.

    thanks a lot for the dialogue suggestions!...the bad grammar and little know of english makes my words almost robotic! ,so much apreciated.

    post what you have so far, is nice to see how everybody works their ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIMAGYAN View Post
    post what you have so far, is nice to see how everybody works their ideas.
    I would, but it's all in my head!

    I usually play with the story a lot in my head first, until it reaches a point where it all comes together and I HAVE to get it down on paper - after that, everything happens in a mad, mad rush...

    With any luck I'll have WIP's to post soon, though - and when I do, I'll post them for sure...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenevere View Post
    Ryuartyi: Is this the final rough or the FINAL final page? I'll know better what to crit if I know that for starters (don't want to nitpick about finish if this is a rough)...

    Some quick comments off the bat, though - I think I can tell pretty well what's going on (although I'm not sure if the little floating thing to the left of the building in the first panel is something important - a bit hard to tell what it is.) However, in the panel where the rope is dropping down, you should probably either have it higher than the lady, or have it cut across her somewhere in the middle. Right now it looks like it's perched on top of her head, which is awkward...

    Also, perhaps it would be more dynamic if the guy outside the window in the last panel is seen at slightly closer range, and/or at an angle and off-center, or even show the whole view in that panel at an angle?
    I haven't inked yet, and haven't added text, so this is the rough first page. The floating is a helicopter that's heading in. That's where the guy is coming in from. I have a hard time right now with dynamic poses, so I don't know how it'll turn out in the last panel. I don't see the part where it's perched on her head, but you're looking inside the building (I don't know how to make glass with pencil, and the rope is on the helicopter (I should probably show that.) outside the building. I tried a dynamic pose before, but it looked very wonky.

    Thanks for the help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuartyi View Post
    I don't see the part where it's perched on her head, but you're looking inside the building (I don't know how to make glass with pencil, and the rope is on the helicopter (I should probably show that.) outside the building.
    I understood that we're looking in through the window OK, what makes it look weird is that the edge of the rope is exactly touching the top of her head. If you move the rope up a bit, or down a lot, it should be fine. Just so there's space between the rope and the lady's head. (This is the third panel, where the rope is kind of in a spiral...)

    If we can see the helicopter more clearly in the first panel, you might not absolutely need to show the rope coming from it, unless you really think it would be an improvement. If we see a helicopter first, and then a rope falling in front of the window, we should be able to make the mental connection, I think...

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  34. #90
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    Apologies in advance if expressionist hockey comics are cliche.
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