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  1. #61
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    I so agree, but don't just blame the amateurs; Blame the percentage of professionals who also buy into that crap.

    I've seen at more than one freelance professional turn around to someone who posted a severely under priced offer and tell them to try another site or to find a fresh out of school student "who might do it for their portfolio".

    They won't take the crap offers themselves but they direct these people to other sites or tell them how and who to take advantage of. Thereby teaching these people that their low job offers are right and that taking advantage of new people just out of college is a good thing, as well as reinforcing the "do free things to build up your portfolio" myth.

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  2. #62
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    nice....I relate

    Love this one too! Relates a little more to artists as well..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgsW...eature=related


    A Fuck!n men

    Last edited by Rabid; December 12th, 2007 at 11:00 AM.
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  4. #63
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    WHAT IF money isn't everything? What if, I don't care if there are greedy sob's in the world?

    Well it's good that I do care about other people then -- so that justifies me taking a lot of money...

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    yeah, but we all have to eat. If you're a professional artist (in any medium) you do this only, and you do it well enough to deserve compensation for it. It's money that pays the rent, not "promotion" or "fame".

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    There are always exceptions to the rule.I did some free work for a comics anthology Event Horizon started by my friend Liam Sharp. It resulted in the most important commercial and personal contacts I have ever made.

    The opinions in the video are a good rule of thumb but you should judge the merits of each case rather than make a blanket decision. Everyones route to a career will be different in every case. It's usually the risks and gambles you take that make all the difference.

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  7. #66
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    I fukin love this guy.

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    yep yep

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    lol pretty much every interview with him kiks ass

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  10. #69
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    You know, "raising the dead" is bad for your health, but I`m glad you did it. I never saw this one before, and I can`t help but to think - this guy is an asshole.


    Yup, you read it right. Let me repeat that - an ASSHOLE.

    "I wouldn`t piss w/o being paid". I wouldn`t piss on him if he was on fire.

    Now, he did make some valid points - one should be paid for one`s work. But come on - he makes it sound as if it`s all about the money. Call me a romantic idiot, call me a douche, call me an amateur (b/c that is what I am, and I`m not embarrassed to admit it), and sure, WB can afford to pay for their projects...but this guy, he sounds like he would sell his own mother. IMO a person with such experience in work and life should have some class and manners.

    "I sell my soul at the highest price". You know what - if that means being successful, if that means being good - then no, sorry. I don`t want to be an artist. I couldn`t.

    And imagine popping over at his place for a cup of sugar...I think this guy should be poster-boy for greed. Period.

    Thank you. Now, let the bashing commence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PxelSlayer View Post
    "I sell my soul at the highest price". You know what - if that means being successful, if that means being good - then no, sorry. I don`t want to be an artist. I couldn`t.

    And imagine popping over at his place for a cup of sugar...I think this guy should be poster-boy for greed. Period.

    Thank you. Now, let the bashing commence.

    That's not what he meant. Harlan makes it very clear in his many essays that there's a separation between his personal/artistic work and his commercial work for Hollywood. He would slave over his personal stories often with very little financial gain, because his personal work was that important.

    But, when it comes to slaving away for someone else's vision, he'd like to be paid what he's worth.

    He wasn't saying that being paid a lot of money makes him good. He's saying that he's good and if Hollywood can afford to pay the pizza delivery man then they can afford to pay him for his work too.

    Before you bash the man, you might want to do a little research and see just how much Harlan's done for Creator's Rights, Science Fiction, Literature, and Civil Rights as well.

    just my 2 cents, FWIW.

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

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  13. #71
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    It's Harlan Ellison, of course he sounds like an asshole, he's famous for it. He's the King of the Rant. He's not Mr. Sunshine. He's known for telling it like it is in no uncertain terms, and that's exactly what he's doing here.

    He's just saying what any professional who's been jerked around enough is thinking but doesn't always dare to say. And saying it in a characteristically blunt way. Somebody has to do it, damn it. I'm glad he did, at the very least it's cathartic to watch.

    Try being a professional for a while and be continually barraged with people trying to screw you over and you'll start thinking like this too... (Well, maybe not to that extreme. But believe me, some days you'll come close.)

    It's not greed. It's nothing more than wanting fair pay for work, which too many people are unwilling to give to creative professionals... Seriously, is it so bad to want to be paid for your work? In any other profession it's expected that professionals should be paid for their work. So WHY is it seen as "greedy" or "impure" to want to be paid for art? We might do it because we enjoy it, but it also happens to be our JOB. It's how we eat and pay the rent.

    Hell, athletes play games for a living, I'm sure that's fun, too. But nobody argues about paying athletes.

    Anyway, like him or not, Harlan Ellison rules.

    Last edited by QueenGwenevere; September 8th, 2010 at 10:58 AM.
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  15. #72
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    every person who has ever wanted to be creative should fall on their knees and thank whatever god they pray to that the world has Harlan Ellison

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    wow thanks a ton for bumps great stuff

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    It seems to me that Craigslist is a major contributor to the "artists should work for low pay or no pay" malarkey. And like I said before, it's as if a lot of people feel entitled to get free art from freelancers. Ho ve!

    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/...45895268771246

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    This is getting retired.

    STOP WHINING! Who cares you can't get freelance of your homo-erotic manga fan art. It doesn't matter. I've done free stuff for free for over 10 years, from roleplaying illustrations to games. I'm in a dream job, doing what I absolutely love as a direct consequence of that! So, I shouldn't have done free stuff just because some fucker said I should be paid for my under par, crap stuff ? It taught me how to be a professional and have a steady creative output

    Last edited by CGMonkey; September 17th, 2010 at 03:59 AM.
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    I don't think the clients who don't want to pay you are the problem. You simply don't have to work for them. I never did and never will.

    The real problem are freelancers that actually work for free or slave wages. But what says this about our business?

    These people, they devalue their own work and they devalue the work of every other freelancer working in the same field. This creates a special mindset, because the clients aren't dumb. Why pay when I can get it for free of far less money from some pour soul?

    Young artists often times don't think longterm. They probably want to have work for 30 or 40 years, but they actively try to destroy this possibilty because they are working for free 'only to get a foot in the door'. In the worst possible situation you would get the foot in the door - but the house is by then long gone. Think about it. We are all in this together.

    The cold and hard truth is: If nobody wants to pay you, you are not ready or you lack the commercial skills for this job that are also needed. It doesn't matter if you are a beginner or not, if you are good enough for a client to do the job you have to be paid.

    Make your own personal projects until you are ready, maybe together with some friends. If you can work for free, you can work for yourself for free, too and the latter is by far the more sensible route. As a marketing tool you have the internet, there's no need anymore to work for free to get recognized.

    Be smart.

    Last edited by Sascha Thau; September 17th, 2010 at 10:04 AM.
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  23. #78
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    No kidding. Most of the "opportunities" involving free work or slave-wage rates are the kinds of jobs that open the wrong doors anyway (those kinds of jobs are all too often from total shysters with no intention of ever paying anyone, or inveterate cheapskates.) Even if you do something at a cut-rate introductory price for a comparatively reputable client just to "get a foot in the door", well guess what - they're never going to want to pay you more than that in the future. You'll be stuck with that low introductory price for as long as you work with them.

    And what's worse is that it affects the whole market... If too many people are willing to work for dirt cheap, fewer clients are willing to pay decent rates. (Man, we need a union for this industry. Or something.)

    If you need portfolio pieces, do your own, on your own time. Or do stuff for trusted friends. There's no point in doing free work for random people just to get "portfolio pieces", especially since client demands usually result in pieces full of compromises anyway. Better to do your own portfolio pieces, you'll have more creative control and you can hone your portfolio to reflect exactly the kind of work you want to get.

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  25. #79
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    I don't know about all of this. If a crappy artist refuses to work for a cheap client, the cheap client is not going to then seek out a professional artist and pay pro's rates. He'll just either seek out another crappy artist, or not use art.
    In a world where art is unionized and rates are set by the union rather than the artist, the cheapskates are still not going to pay. They'll find students, they'll find hobbyists, they'll make it themselves, they'll abstain or they'll steal.
    These folks that aren't paying decent rates for art aren't really a part of the professional art markets, so when crappy artists agree to the deals, it shouldn't be negatively effecting anything.
    Also, by saying that amateurs are undercutting pros is sort of like saying quality isn't necessary. If a client is considering the difference between bad cheap art and quality expensive art, and they choose the cheap stuff, maybe they just didn't need quality art to begin with. I really believe that quality art will bring in the prices that it's worth and a good artist who's underpaid won't be for long. Am I off here? I dunno.

    I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. What if the underpaid jobs actually help the art markets grow and increase pay for artists? By putting more art into the commercial realm, the bigger fish have to work harder to sell their products, so they'll be more willing to drop more money into them. Maybe they'll spend more on art as a result?

    I'm getting the sense that we're comparing artists to plumbers. When one plumber lowers his rates, that effects all plumbers in the area. Sure people still know about price vs. quality, but anyone doing plumbing for less then "the most they can get for it" hurts everyone. But in commercial art, the art produced effects the market. So an illustrated book cover should sell more books, increasing the demand for book covers, increasing both number of clients and the amount they are willing to pay.

    What do we think? Crazy talk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTrip View Post
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. What if the underpaid jobs actually help the art markets grow and increase pay for artists? By putting more art into the commercial realm, the bigger fish have to work harder to sell their products, so they'll be more willing to drop more money into them. Maybe they'll spend more on art as a result?
    The problem is that this is not what is actually happening in the market right now. The problem is that there are people selling professional quality work for cheap rates, leading to even major publishers expecting to get more and better work for less and less money. This leads to a downward spiral where more people reduce their rates in order to meet expectations, so expectations are lowered further, so people charge even lower rates, etc... Sooner or later you won't be able to make a living anymore, especially in the face of inflation.

    Add to this the fact that the market is pretty saturated with artists, and how easy it is to find artists now thanks to the internet, and it becomes harder and harder to persuade people that you're worth a good rate, regardless of quality... A lot of people have developed a mentality where they think they can get whatever they want free or cheap off the web. So when they hire you for a custom commission, they expect it free or cheap. (The situation with photography seems to be especially bad in this regard, from what I hear...)

    So the situation is actually a lot more like the plumber scenario. Any professional with any sense should try to counter it by sticking to sensible rates and avoiding the rip-off jobs, if at all possible.

    (As for unions, granted I don't know much about those and I doubt you could really unionize such a disorganized industry... but my sister was a classical musician, and I was always slightly jealous of the fact that any orchestra she played in had to guarantee union-approved pay and benefits... so she had a certain level of built-in stability in her work that I've never had in mine.)

    Last edited by QueenGwenevere; September 17th, 2010 at 10:46 AM. Reason: clarified, added bits...
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    downward spiral
    This is economically based, though, right? Times are tough and everyone is looking for a deal (even at the expense of quality). When things eventually take and up turn, do you think that art buyers will again be willing to spend more so they can outperform their competitors?

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    I think more of the line: do you want to live off of your work or not? If the answer is yes, than don't accept cheap rates. I've seen enough people who started too cheap for their own sake and they had to struggle for years until they realised that their work is worth more money than they accepted.

    Like Queen Genevere said... if you work for 50 Dollars a week you only get more clients that want you to work for 50 dollars a week.

    just a little advice:
    The more clients pay the more pleasant is the work experience (most of the time). Cheap jobs will cost you more than money (nerves and precious lifetime in abundance and you still can't pay your rent).

    And Nick:
    Not all 'cheap' artists are crappy artists. Some artists only want to think about their art and never about their wallet. If you want to be a commercial artist, you have to learn about the business side, too. There are enough resources about how to calculate your prices and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTrip View Post
    This is economically based, though, right? Times are tough and everyone is looking for a deal (even at the expense of quality). When things eventually take and up turn, do you think that art buyers will again be willing to spend more so they can outperform their competitors?
    That would be nice, but I doubt it, unless a lot of people change their mindsets...

    Like I said in my edits, more and more people have developed an attitude of "I can get stuff for free on the web, why pay?" (Usually because they don't understand copyright, which is ANOTHER whole battle...) Plus with the web it's a lot easier than it's ever been for clients to find that one naive-but-highly-skilled newbie who will give them quality work for cheap rates. So they start to expect the same low rates for all quality work, and it's a struggle to keep some kind of balance...

    This is why there's such motivation to teach the new-but-talented artists out there to learn what they're really worth and not undersell themselves. When they do, they undersell everybody (including their future selves.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha Thau View Post
    cheapy not crappy.
    I don't know, I really believe that quality artists are going to attract quality clients. If you're getting exposure, enough to attract any business, then you should get some quality stuff eventually (which would then inform the artist about their own value)

    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    new-but-talented artists out there
    Are a lot more young people becoming artists? Am I right in thinking that you're saying there's so many young people at a pro's level emerging right now that the pool is going to be way to big for a profitable art future?

    I'm trying to understand the situation, are you saying the future of commercial art is doomed and those participating are likely to be slavishly working for near nothing? Does this include the current professionals? You seem to be predicting a pretty bleak future, where there's so much top notch art that it is valueless.

    *edit*
    I seem a little snippy. I'm not trying to come off that way, it just seems like everyone is hopelessly pessimistic. It makes me sad....

    Last edited by NickTrip; September 17th, 2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: snippy long-stockings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTrip View Post
    I don't know, I really believe that quality artists are going to attract quality clients. If you're getting exposure, enough to attract any business, then you should get some quality stuff eventually (which would then inform the artist about their own value)
    Hm, but why start your career by working for free or cheap? I don't know where the logic is behind this. Just ask a professional or two or three, they will inform you from the get go how much worth you are. Why should you expolit yourself to learn all this?

    Just listen to Harlan Ellison. He has a point.

    Your client will be paid, the boss of your client will be paid, the the housemaid of the boss of the client will be paid, everybody else will be paid. The only one who doesn't get paid is: you, if you work for free.

    Is this good buisness thinking? You have conceptart.org, deviantart.org, facebook, linkedin et cetera. These all are the greatest marketing tools one can wish for. I'm certain artists would have killed for these only 10 years ago. Use them until you get paid what you are worth. Until then flip burgers or do something else. It's as simple as that.

    The market or the crisis doesn't matter. As a freelancer you have to be prepared for all kinds of stuff. If I earn a shitload of money I put it in the bank. It's wise to have so much money in the bank that you can survive 1 or 2 years without any job (even 6 months can save your life as an artist). This is how artists/freelancers can have careers over 30 or 40 years in their respective field. I don't know how you can achieve this if you work for free or slave rates.

    If you earn too little from every job you do, you'll never can put this money away, even if you work 24/7. Why? Because you only have so much time any given day and if you sell your time too cheap... and cheap clients will bring in other cheap clients and you can't look after other clients because you need this money so urgent and you have to work for it all the time and then comes another cheap clieant and so on - it's a vicious circle. Why would you want to start it?

    I don't know what to say anymore. You say to people: don't hold your hand into the fire, you turn around and the next second you hear a scream.

    Just don't do it is all I say.

    Last edited by Sascha Thau; September 17th, 2010 at 11:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PxelSlayer View Post
    I wouldn`t piss on him if he was on fire.

    ...IMO a person with such experience in work and life should have some class and manners.
    Oh, the irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGMonkey View Post
    STOP WHINING! Who cares you can't get freelance of your homo-erotic manga fan art. It doesn't matter. I've done free stuff for free for over 10 years, from roleplaying illustrations to games. I'm in a dream job, doing what I absolutely love as a direct consequence of that! So, I shouldn't have done free stuff just because some fucker said I should be paid for my under par, crap stuff ? It taught me how to be a professional
    And again.

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    Professional: Advice.
    Amateur/Would be/Aspiring Pro: But, but, but....?
    Professional: Advice.
    Amateur/Would be/Aspiring Pro: But, but, but, but....?
    Professional: Advice.
    Amateur/Would be/Aspiring Pro: But, but, but, but, but....?
    Professional: ADVICE.
    Amateur/Would be/Aspiring Pro: But, but, but, but, but, but....?
    Profesional: Whatever...


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    Good advice! I'm going to be more ruthless when it comes to pricing commissions as I am terrible at undervaluing myself, usually I find that whatever I quote I could quite easily double and my caricature clients would still pay!

    I think it comes from my parents and my families attitude to art, they see it as a hobby or a distraction from real life. Also creativity in schools is woefully underated, it's clear that hardly any value is put into the arts and it wasn't until I got a job in a Steiner College that I became of aware of that as they are centred on creativity and I watched it change depressed reclusive autistic kids into outgoing confident young adults.

    This runs deep, I don't think any particular thing is to blame, it's how society sees it, we need to change the educational system early on to tackle this way of thinking. imo anyway.

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    bhanu is offline Registered User Level 16 Gladiator: Spartacus' Retiarii
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    they see it as a hobby or a distraction from real life.
    And they are not to blame for that too, are they, we make it look like that ourselves quite a number of time.
    In real life one work hard, earn money one way or the other, one doesnt intropect 10 hours and work for an hour, and say that the world doesnt understand genius when it sees it.
    An artist, he/she is personally responsible to see that he doesnt get exploited, mainly because there are no unions and such and there is less awareness of how art and illustration can be priced. Anyways Most of the exploitation is instigated by artist themselves.

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  39. #90
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    would you go into a restaurant and say:
    "hey guys, ok here's the deal: i dont have any budget for this meal, but it would be great experience for you professionally and AWESOME exposure when i tell all my friends about how great your food is! this is a great opportunity for you, dont let it pass! feed me for free!"

    yeah... it dont work that way.

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