Hi everyone, this is Thomas Kinkade.
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Thread: Hi everyone, this is Thomas Kinkade.

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    Hi everyone, this is Thomas Kinkade.

    Why don't you love my work?

    I mean, the rest of America loves me, and I know DRD's grandma really digs my stuff. Why don't you guys like it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drd View Post
    Why don't you love my work?

    I mean, the rest of America loves me, and I know DRD's grandma really digs my stuff. Why don't you guys like it?
    I won't lie, I had to google to see who this was.

    I think the consensus was that he's hit some sort of artistic wall, and has carved out a comfy niche where he can sit and stagnate.... or something like that.

    I don't really mind what I see from him. I could probably critique some of his stuff but he's making a living and does some decent stuff so.... he's alright by me I guess.

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    He doesn't even sit and stagnate. His clone factory stagnates while he makes money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Oaksford View Post
    He doesn't even sit and stagnate. His clone factory stagnates while he makes money!
    Ah, I see. Well he's smart enough to make money, that's gotta stand for something. Though I don't know if the adoration from millions of grannies helps him sleep better at night.... I guess that's what the money is for

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    Kinkade’s work is saccharine and harmless. However, I despise his unethical practice of selling prints that have a little extra paint gobbed on. He preys on novice art-buyers who don’t know that they are getting a print and who don’t know that what they are buying is a trendy piece of junk with no resale value. If you aren't familliar with the sales pitch, try dropping in one of his galleries with your grandparents. It's educational.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    shudder

    I heard a story of a guywho actually has a lawsuit against him becasue he made a remark about kinkades work...you know thy advertise that Mr Kinkades DNA is in every piece....

    all this guy said was " I hope he pisses in the paint"
    bam
    lawsuit

    hehehehe
    gives "prints" a bad name
    chaos

    To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosrocks View Post
    all this guy said was " I hope he pisses in the paint"
    Probably hit too close to home:http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/stor...739383,00.html
    In court documents and other testimony, he has been accused of sexual harassment, fraudulent business practices and bizarre incidents of drunkenness including a habit of "ritual territory marking" that involves urinating in public places.
    Two former employees, Terry Sheppard and John Dandois, told the panel of further examples of Kinkade's unpredictable behaviour: bringing disorder to a Las Vegas performance by the illusionists Siegfried and Roy by repeatedly yelling the word "codpiece" from his audience seat, and urinating in public - in an elevator and on a model of Winnie the Pooh at a Disneyland hotel. "This one's for you, Walt," Mr Sheppard claimed the artist said as he did so.



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    Kinkade!

    I'll admit, I enjoyed his work for Fire and Ice. There's a lot to love or hate about that movie, but the backgrounds were wonderfully prehistoric. Now, what drives a man from that sort of work to painting idyllic wintry scenes? Uh, sorry - correction - painting the light in idyllic wintry scenes? I'll never know...

    Oh, Thomas...Was it saccharine-laced beverages? Too many long nights concerned over the state of the American visual arts tradition? The pressure to reinvent oneself in the face of the post-Studio 54 crowd?

    "CODPIECE!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogDoll View Post
    I'll admit, I enjoyed his work for Fire and Ice. There's a lot to love or hate about that movie, but the backgrounds were wonderfully prehistoric. Now, what drives a man from that sort of work to painting idyllic wintry scenes?
    Jesus.


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    yeah, I'd heard that he was something of a wild man. Apparently he and that guy who did all the Dinotopia paintings also used to go on road trips together. I found that kind of interesting.

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    However, Jim Gurney does amazing paintings (the guy who did Dinotopia that is.)

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    WTF Dave, you don't really compare James Gurney to this guy, whoever he is, do you?

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    no, I said that they were buddies. I read it at the James Gurney exhibit I saw in LA this summer.

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    Yeah, they made a sketchbook together in '82 (Link) . In fact if you look at the picture in Dinotopia: The World Beneath page 119 it looks unmistakably like Kinkade's influence. And if you like Gurney, you have to check out his blog. Especially when he started there's a lot of invaluable information in there.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I know Jim Gurney. He and Kinkade were friends but I have no idea the last time they saw each other. They did do sketching tours of the country and in fact produced a book together about the subject.

    Oh, just noticed Bowlin's post about the same info. Redundant.

    About all the things we hate about Kinkade's work, I'm reminded of the line about Liberace "crying all the way to the bank."

    Maybe that's part of the issue. All the complaints in the world won't change his bank account.

    If we were to be honest, could we say how much of our feelings about the man and his work is jealousy of his success (and jealousy is just a form of self-hatred, it seems to me.) How much is anti-religious, or more specifically anti-christian?

    If the issue is that he is conning people with his work, that's a rather judgemental thing to have to defend. That's one of those, "who do we hate more... the charlatan or his dupes?" kind of question, which, of course, sets us all up as superior moral and artistic exemplars.

    Evangelicals are people too. I've known some. Nice people, some of them. Some of them were, in my opinion, buck nuts. But that's people in general, not just Evangelicals. But of course certain publications are going to emphasize their connection to Kinkade's success, because there's good sport in that.

    Lots of other people buy Kinkade's stuff as well. And a lot of Kinkade fans are also fans of Norman Rockwell. Both Kinkade and Gurney own smacking good Rockwells.

    I have some old art mags from garage sales circa 1980, and there among the ads are Mr. Kinkade's own advertisements... his clever early attempts to make his name and market and sell his work.

    Is it too much to say, if we cannot respect business acumen in another, how are we to respect it in ourselves... let alone develop it in ourselves.

    All to say...

    For sport, I'll join in the bashing myself! I think he's a painter of trite shite, not light.

    But the other side of the coin is, Kinkade is a harder working artist and better businessman than I am. And that pisses me off.

    And of course, yelling "codpiece" at Sigfried and Roy is to be commended.

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    Codpiece Codpiece Codpiece Codpiece Codpiece!

    Quote Originally Posted by book description
    The Atrist Guide To Sketching HB, by James Gurney and Thomas Kinkade.Book measures 8 1/2 x 11 1/4 , 160 pages copyright 1982.Cover is quite worn and slightly yellowed, inside pages are immaculate, no tears ,creases or rips or marks.The actual book hard cover is in perfect shape.

    Before they were known as the "Painter of Light" and the "Creator of Dinotopia," Thomas Kinkade and James Gurney were known the "Hoisters," two 21-year old grimy hobo artists crossing America by freight train. "Hoisting" is a term they coined to refer to a sketching adventure. Thomas Kinkade and James Gurney first met at age 17 as freshman college roomates at the University of California, and then later as fellow students at Art Center in Pasadena. They worked together as background painters on Ralph Bakshi's Fire and Ice, and as co-authors of the instructional book The Artist's Guide to Sketching (Watson-Guptill, 1982). The idea for the book on sketching gave them the impetus to jump into a boxcar in the Los Angeles rail yard and head east. To raise money they did marker sketches of bar patrons, usually by the light of cigarette machines or neon beer signs. They knocked on doors offering to do house portraits for $10.00. They slept in graveyards, on rooftops, and alongside rumbling diesel engines. At one point they were kicked off the train at gunpoint by the police department of Willard Ohio. They had been spotted trying to fly a kite from the top of the train car moving at 60 miles an hour.

    When they reached New York, they couldn't afford a hotel, so they slept on a burnt-out pier on the west side, where the tidewater lapped against their portfolios and gave their drawings a fishy smell. Dressed in gas station uniforms that said "Jim" and "Tom" they visited publishers offices to try to sell their idea for the sketching book. They had written the outline on paper placemats from a Burger King on the Upper West Side.

    Gurney credits the adventure as a key inspiration for Dinotopia. "The idea of exploring a continent with no plan or map, while sketching everything you see is exactly what I have my main character doing in Dinotopia.
    Amen (ha ha ha) kev. the art is ... flacid and extremely weak but to kinkade's credit, it appears he's at least paid his dues from this description and a keen business sense is an important part of "making it."

    gugg

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Is it too much to say, if we cannot respect business acumen in another, how are we to respect it in ourselves... let alone develop it in ourselves.
    Are you saying that ethics should play no part in business?

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    Yeah, I've tried to argue about the ethics of kinkade before in this thread. I didn't seem to get very far. There doesn't seem to be much in terms of ethics for most artist?

    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33269

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
    Are you saying that ethics should play no part in business?
    Nope. Just that ethics are subjective. They only become "objective" where they run afoul of the law. Bad ethics may result in lawbreaking, sure. But one may also act ethically, and by so doing, run afoul of the law. (Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers leak, as a for instance some would agree with)

    Ethics judgments may cause us rage, but they can't be enforced.

    You seem to think that selling prints with paint added is un-ethical. Would that make prints unethical too? Or just prints with added paint?

    I personally find the collectible print market more or less laughable, with the pencilled numbers and signature at the bottom. Does that fool me into thinking "hey, this is a more original work than a poster because it was done via old-school lithography and the artist touched it with a pencil." Same thing as the Kinkade paint dabs, as far as I'm concerned. All hooey. Prints of photos with pencilled numbers... don't get me started.

    But unethical?

    Kinkade charges different prices for paintovers and originals, as befitting their relative merits as "originals". If people are unaware of that fact, you are free to inform them. But I think they know. Signatures on photographs, after all, have collectible value.


    It's all added value to some. Just like a perfectly cute girl getting a bad dragon tattoo with tits and fire on the small of her back.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I personally find the collectible print market more or less laughable, with the pencilled numbers and signature at the bottom. Does that fool me into thinking "hey, this is a more original work than a poster because it was done via old-school lithography and the artist touched it with a pencil." Same thing as the Kinkade paint dabs, as far as I'm concerned. All hooey. Prints of photos with pencilled numbers... don't get me started.

    But unethical?
    That's a good point kev. I am published as limited edition prints in my own country (UK) and open editions everywhere else. I have really awkard feelings about the signed stuff - it really bothers me since the whole thing is, as you say, a load of laughable nonsense. However, the originals sell for something like £3,500 which is also laughable since it's fundamentally a version of the same instinct but with more zeros. In fact, when it comes to ethics, unless you are a nurse, doctor, farmer, scientist, teacher etc one is really only part of the entertainment business and all the dreams and foolery that that goes with it, both from the point of view of those on stage and those in the audience! It doesn't feel unethical but rather a chore to be part of something so ridiculous - but most of us do this in one way or another.

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    Dear Mr Kinkade,

    you truly are the painter of light.
    thank you for having a sanctuary of your fantastic art in every mall in the pacific northwest, it's a haven from those filthy misceant alleged 'street-artists'

    you'd never be as weak as that soft-voiced coward bob ross, would you? no, you are a god among men, wiping your liquin on prints with semen-like shine of all your glory.

    thanks to your fantastical works of brilliant-brilliance you have sculpted middle amerika into seeing what art truly is.

    i thank you from the bottom of my unworthy heart

    -Joe (Grief)

    PS- Give Jesus a high five for me when you routinely see Him.
    __________________
    okay all of my dumbass sarcasm aside,

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I personally find the collectible print market more or less laughable, with the pencilled numbers and signature at the bottom. Does that fool me into thinking "hey, this is a more original work than a poster because it was done via old-school lithography and the artist touched it with a pencil." Same thing as the Kinkade paint dabs, as far as I'm concerned. All hooey. Prints of photos with pencilled numbers... don't get me started.
    there is a degree of truth to this in some of the 'higher-up' artists. but for the most part print-making is a very meticulous and technical process (depending on the method). i only have limited printmaking experience (polyester plate lithography, serigraphs, linoleum and wood relief, dry point) and it's a LOT more work than people give it credit for.

    photographic prints if made in a darkroom are an art to make. the process of arriving at a successful print is a skill learned through knowledge and practice. i always thought of the process of dodging and burning as a dance in time with light as it creates an image. this is to say nothing of the development process and the myriad of options for crafting the vision of the image.

    creating prints is not as direct and simple as you make it out. think of it as instead of 'drawing' one poster, you create many at once. the concept of editions seems to escape you. in most cases the original plates are destroyed or altered as to prevent further reproduction of the image. you cant just go back and wing-out a dozen more prints for the hell of it to milk more money when needed (unless you gave your edition is some ungodly high number, which would only deture prospective buyers from the rarity of the print)

    but don't bash on print-making. it took me years to outgrow my similar thought that it was lesser-art. it is not.

    [i had to throw in a cheap shot of one of my editions together]
    each image in the edition is an 'original'. it's a hell of a lot of work and fun.

    but yeah, if youre just clicking 'print' on a computer and sipping coffee as your art is made for you, i have a distant and thin amount of respect for the print edition. i'm a bit oblivious to the method to which Kinkade makes prints and how he handles editions, but from the amount of grumbling i suspect he's doing some slightly underhanded means of cheapening the concept of 'originals'

    Last edited by Grief; October 21st, 2007 at 05:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    You seem to think that selling prints with paint added is un-ethical..
    No, what I find unethical is that in the sales pitch, no mention is made of “prints” at all. Have you visited one of his stores and listened to the sales pitch? The speech they give is tailored to smoothly avoid certain information, and is tailored not for folks like you and me, who have a clue about art and prints and paints, but for folks like my grandparents who are utterly clueless. I swear it was written by lawyers. They would have tried to sell my grandparents the Brooklyn Bridge had I not pulled them out of there.

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I personally find the collectible print market more or less laughable, with the penciled numbers and signature at the bottom. Does that fool me. . .
    Of course it doesn’t fool you. You work in a business in which a knowledge of printmaking is easy to come by. My next door neighbors – a pair of lawyers, one of which worked on Capitol Hill, just so you know we’re talking well-educated and intelligent people - were fooled by this sort of art scam not once, but twice. (To their credit, I believe they successfully sued at least one of the two scammers after they found out.)

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Ethics judgments may cause us rage, but they can't be enforced.
    Hi Kev. You should know by now that I’m no dummy. This is a “well duh” statement. Kindly don’t talk to me like I’m two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grief View Post
    i'm a bit oblivious to the method to which Kinkade makes prints and how he handles editions, but from the amount of grumbling i suspect he's doing some slightly underhanded means of cheapening the concept of 'originals'
    Thanks for sharing that info about printmaking, Grief. Printmaking done by hand is an art, and mass-production printing (I believe Kinkade uses giclee prints) is a useful tool for artists to make a living and for making art available to those who don’t have the budget for originals or handmade prints.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Seedling,

    In my attempt to be clear as I map an argument, I often write "givens", which, though obvious, are nevertheless logistically necessary to weave a more or less complete swath of reasoning.

    Why you get so mad, eh? You know I think you super smarty.

    Yeah, I'm aware of the shifty lawyer language used by Kinkade salesmen. Then again, I often work with a guy who was trained by several companies at sales schools, and he talks to clients in complex and complete sentences of bullshit. Which I find it positively intolerable to listen to.

    But, as David Mamet says, "we all have to get out there and eat that greasy sandwhich."

    Bullshit is actually something people use to make a living. It is all some people have. And I know some good people who have to be complete asses to put bread on their kitchen table. Such is life.

    And, of course, Kinkade's salesmen do act unethically from time to time (Whether this is at Kinkade's direction I don't know -- one would have to see the inter-office manifests to really be sure)... And they are rightly sued for fraudulence on that point.

    Incidentally, of course printmaking is a legit source of artistic income, in all its forms... Including Kinkadian paintovers. (Fraudulence aside)

    kev

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    I don't mean to compare this guy to some of the great masters in the past, but factory style mass production of art is not some newfangled atrocity of the industrial age; I know that Michelangelo and Rubens definately ran schools where their students did nearly all of the work on many pieces. Whether Kinkade's worksmen are students is not relevant, its simply the method through which he recruits art slaves. Anyway, aside from those two recognizable names, I am absolutely sure that there are famous artists who have run similar establishments. The same kind of system existed in ancient Greece as well; Pythagoras, the guy credited with the discovery of what is now called the Pythagorean Theorem (pertaining to geometry) also ran a similar establishment, where large numbers of students labored under him, and he just took the credit, money, and prestige at the end.

    The merits of Kinkade's actual art is one that we all seem to be in agreement on, but it's a different subject from the more troubling ethical concerns at hand - but keep in mind that Kinkade is not the only one who has mass produced art.

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    chaosrocks's Avatar
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    ARRRGGH!

    damn I hate this
    I sell fine art. LImited edition (meaning no more than 100, usually less) Hand printed by the artist etchings

    there is a difference
    actuall artist made etchings, engravings, Lithos, silkscreens, Monotypes Mezzotints and relief prints are without a doubt fine art, originals and worth collecting. photo reproduced mass marketed shlock in editions of thousands that the artist pissed or something more unsavoury in the paint of the signature is not.

    trouble is the uneducated don't know the difference

    kev
    www.wergerprint.com
    its art
    its worth owning, if you can afford it

    chaosrocks

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    Ilaekae is offline P.O.W.! Leader, Complete Idiot, Super Moderator Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I am a printmaker. I have been a printmaker since 1964. Anyone who even hints that what I do is anything even close to the unethical shit that this glorified hack churns out can go to hell...

    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Not to push the point, considering I have friends that are serious hands-on print makers and I fully appreciate what they do, but there does seem to be a continuum of "original" productions, from a one of kind oil painting , let's say, all the way to a fairly cheap poster print with a print number on it. Or a work signed by the master but wholly done by an apprentice maybe based on a template, like a tiffany lamp. Or one of Warhol's or Koons' studio productions. Not sure how different that is from Kinkade's after-originals, as much as I may detest them. They are all along the continuum, as I see it.

    I don't think I'm being facetious when I say that where the ethical line is drawn along that continuum is a purely subjective decision.

    Chaos rocks, did I say that photographic prints weren't art? Surely not. Although I do have a set of ethics, personal ethics, by which I evaluate relative authorial presence in a work. Obviously, I assert no claim of universality with respect to these personal ethics.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    It's not the print making or even his drunken antics that bothers me. What feels unethical to me is how it appears to be an art field ruled by one man. It's like Drew Struzan who pretty much runs the whole movie poster industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grief View Post
    thanks to your fantastical works of brilliant-brilliance you have sculpted middle amerika into seeing what art truly is.
    Even though Grief is being sarcastic here, that's how I see it too! There is more of Kinkade's art in American homes than any other contemporary artist. I would have no problem if there were 3 or 4 other well known Kinkade type of artist out there competing with him business wise. This way people could compare and judge for themselves instead of being visually coerced into thinking that "this is the finest contemporary art there is".

    And I'm sure his movie coming out this December will be just as misleading as well.

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    Kev
    theres no photo prints on that site
    those are all hand drawn, hand printed etchings (actually a bunch are mezzotints and there are some drawings)

    and I think the line in the continuum is pretty easy to draw.
    chaos

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosrocks View Post
    there is a difference
    actuall artist made etchings, engravings, Lithos, silkscreens, Monotypes Mezzotints and relief prints are without a doubt fine art, originals and worth collecting.
    That's an important distinction - There is a huge difference between a print maker's art and the running off of giclee copies of a painting. The 'print maker' as artist is a discipline all by itself and an esthetic all it's own and unfortunately many people think it is as easy or throwaway as giclee manufacture. It isn't and it is really frustrating to see people paying good money for mass produced giclee when they can get the much more satisfying real deal from an artist who is making an image as a printing process itself and that can only exist as a print right from the outset. The lithos that Picasso produced of Francoise Gilot are some of the most beautiful images in existence.

    From Gegarin's point of view
    http://www.chrisbennettartist.co.uk/
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