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  1. #1
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    I AM Sick of it! [RANT]

    So I freelance as often as I can...
    One thing i keep coming across is the "Mock up" mentality when dealing with artists. The "draw, paint, layout, design it for me and if I like it, I'll hire you" mentality. I've had enough of it, some people are so accustomed to getting mock ups from new artists that they refuse any other proposals which contain none.
    There has to be a way to educate these people, these potential employers. Does anyone have any good links to some good resources for them to read and get educated?

    On this last experience I had, I was pretty pissed until the client wrote this at the end of his rant:
    As a side note, i am a salesman by profession. I have found that nothing i ever did in the past got me a sale with someone i didn't know today.
    referring to portfolios.
    Then it was clear that ignorance was at play here.

    My response:
    As a side note, you are a salesman by profession. We are professional artists, not sales men. WE are not trying to "sell" you a piece of our "old" art. We are offering our PROFESSIONAL SERVICES to you. A service which quality can be evidenced by reviewing our portfolios. That is the purpose of having a portfolio sir.
    links people, give'em to me
    J.L. ALFARO


    "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."
    -Dr. Seuss




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  3. #2
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    I'm sorry, I have no link, but here's a hug.

    *hug*

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

  4. #3
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    When they ask you for a mock-up, tell them the billable hours that you will need to complete it. Give no mark-up for a sweetener if they're particularly stupid. If they give you a blank stare or act like they don't want to pay you for it, tell them that you could do this mockup and get paid for it, doing a professional job, or they can look for a student to do it with no promise of money that will be completed in their spare time. Ask them how professional they want to be about it.

    I think the thought of some stoned student drawing while watching family guy would be enough to make them realize your seriousness is an asset.

    Also, ask them if they would do an 'example' job for free. If they're selling something, ask if they'd design, produce and give something away something for free for a consumer to make their decision on whether to buy the product in the future.

  5. #4
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    I take offense to that rhineville...I am not stoned (yet) and I do watch Family Guy while I draw sometimes. Is there something wrong with that? :p

    You handled it pretty well OP. Do what Rhineville suggested about billing them for the mock-up. I do it all the time when dealing with a potential website design. Do a few quick mocks, let them pick, and then go at the one they decide.

    Good luck and if you ever find anything, post here so we all can see.

  6. #5
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    I think the thought of some stoned student drawing while watching family guy would be enough to make them realize your seriousness is an asset.
    LMFAO, the image of Jack Black from Orange County comes to mind. Hilarious.

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    JL.Alfaro: Sucks man, don't get overly stressed out about it, dude.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stark View Post
    I take offense to that rhineville...I am not stoned (yet) and I do watch Family Guy while I draw sometimes.
    I do too but if any show embodies the 'layabout' youth culture, it's family guy. Which is unfortunate, they have some pretty intricate, high-brow jokes on there. I guess the stoners just filter it out and wait for the poop jokes

  8. #7
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    This website deals with this and working for spec type issues. Takes it pretty serious too.
    "It's worth the grief." - Greg Manchess

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  10. #8
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    Thanks Mark winters, thats a really good site!
    I will pass along the info

    thanks
    -JL


    PS: thanks for that hug Michelle pld:
    J.L. ALFARO


    "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."
    -Dr. Seuss



  11. #9
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    sounds like they want your work for free. i'd be careful here. it wouldn't be the first time if a company published someone's mock ups without the artist being paid. now thats shitty.

  12. #10
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    My first question to any client is always, "do you have a budget for this?"

    This puts them back on their heels and immediately alerts them that this is a professional operation that runs on a payment basis. The project is not "for the fun of it" and . hey buddy, we ain't pals... yet!

    If they say "I'd like to see some mockup before beginning" you say, "the way I do it is a split up payment into three sections, always including up front money to begin. The upfront money, in the event the client backs out, is to be considered a "kill fee". (Don't call it a kill fee, by the way, just say its the first installment to begin work.)

    Once a client pays the first installment, they rarely walk away from the project. (In my experience)

    If any argument arises from this arrangement, just keep saying, "this is the way I work." Never say, "I'm sorry but..." Don't say, "I'm protecting myself" or "I've been screwed in the past". Just say, this is the way I work, I do professional work, as I am sure you do, and we both would expect a professional arrangement.

    Working with an agency is often different as they get paid by clients and then the pay you, so payment takes longer. And they may not go for an incremental payment schedule.

    kev
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  14. #11
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    As a side note, i am a salesman by profession. I have found that nothing i ever did in the past got me a sale with someone i didn't know today.
    LOL! This guy just told you that HE has nothing to show for himself!! Why don't you ask him to pay you first then? If nothing he ever did in the past got him anything with someone new today, then ask him to do something for YOU? Like put down a deposit!


    Kev is right, I wouldn't lower your standards for someone who is already showing signs of difficulty...and complete ignorance.
    Last edited by otis; October 12th, 2007 at 03:37 PM.
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  15. #12
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    Thanks guys, I appreciate the info

    Im not working with the guy, it was a discussion from a proposal submission...and Im out of that since he is a bit "difficult" and "ignorant". pardon my french.
    J.L. ALFARO


    "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."
    -Dr. Seuss



  16. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL.Alfaro View Post
    Im not working with the guy, it was a discussion from a proposal submission...and Im out of that since he is a bit "difficult" and "ignorant". pardon my french.
    Good. It would have been worse if you had gotten the job. If someone is a pain in the ass during the initial contact, they're not going to turn around and suddenly be a pleasure to work with once the project actually starts.

    Tristan Elwell
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  17. #14
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    Good. It would have been worse if you had gotten the job. If someone is a pain in the ass during the initial contact, they're not going to turn around and suddenly be a pleasure to work with once the project actually starts.
    very true, but I want to mention something purely for the sake of discussion. While this sort of thing certainly happens very often with clients of the low rent and deadbeat variety, it's also happening with big ticket high profile companies because that's just the way that they do business. Specifically, I'm talking about the advertising industry.

    From what I've seen of this branch of the illustration tree, they often are working on incredibly short deadlines, constantly change their minds, ask for proposals and mock-ups without guarantee of payment, and pay more than just about any other client if you do land the job.

    Point being that, as I understand things, this practice is something which many top ad agencies regularly engage in as standard procedure. Their artists are certainly compensated well if the job goes through, but often enough it does not. I would never recommend giving your time and effort away to a client who doesn't provide reasonable compensation (however you might define that) but there are times when some risk is acceptable and times when (as in this case it would seem) the client is being shamelessly exploitive.

    Just some thoughts.
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  18. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavePalumbo View Post
    From what I've seen of this branch of the illustration tree, they often are working on incredibly short deadlines, constantly change their minds, ask for proposals and mock-ups without guarantee of payment, and pay more than just about any other client if you do land the job.

    Point being that, as I understand things, this practice is something which many top ad agencies regularly engage in as standard procedure. Their artists are certainly compensated well if the job goes through, but often enough it does not. I would never recommend giving your time and effort away to a client who doesn't provide reasonable compensation (however you might define that) but there are times when some risk is acceptable and times when (as in this case it would seem) the client is being shamelessly exploitive.
    Although sometimes risk is acceptable, its still a gamble to work this way. It will be a sad day in illustration history if that were to become a standard in the industry.
    I wouldn't have a problem with it, if it meant that your capabilities and skills were put to test. But developing spec work or mock up works leaves it solely to discretion, taste and preferences of the client. Something that can be done with the review of ones portfolio.
    Even if you get the job and get compensated well, still leaves the question;
    What happens to the other artists who placed all their efforts, skill and time? and keep in mind, the next time it might be you left on the sidelines.
    It would appear to me that better planning is needed in the advertising segment of the illustration industry. Either that, or have a few illustrators in your payroll and get as many mock ups as you need.
    J.L. ALFARO


    "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."
    -Dr. Seuss



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