Darker skin experimentation.
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Thread: Darker skin experimentation.

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    Darker skin experimentation.

    So I'm working on this, I didn't plan it out and that means I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. So far I like the anatomy, not quite sure about the eyes, I have no idea of what to do with the background and I'm not sure what hair he should have. I do know that I want him to have deep dark violet eyes.

    Attached are two different versions.

    Advice, critique and help very much sought.

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    Very nice. I perfer the darker hair as the red looks unnatural.
    Presently the nose seems a lighter colour than the rest of the face. It should perhaps only appear lighter on the side that catches the light. With most people whatever their race, meanwhile, the lips will appear if anything slightly darker than the surrounding skin, rather than paler as here.


    The eye-whites look too grey, to me, and the red veins in them are too prominent. I would also suggest adding a bit of light in the eyes (a small, bright white dot within each iris would convey this) to give them life. I suggest darkening the irisis and giving him some eyebrows, and possibly making his features slightly more masculine.

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    More attention to the eyes, get a ref if possible, since right now they look like pasted-on cartoony versions of eyes compared to the competently rendered face.

    The skin also appears to be somewhat green. Not sure if that's what you're going for just pointing it out.

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    I probably should have put more details. This is an unfinished work.

    The nose is nearly finished, it just needs it's final highlighting which I haven't done yet, the cheeks are not, I still have to add in hair shadows and everything.

    Red veins? there's no red in the eyes at all. I've just re-sketched them in quickly, they're like at the most basic stage of rendering since I had to redo them since the first time they were too big and half asleep me didn't notice the proportion issue. That's the problem with painting at 1am, mistakes creep in.

    Green? I can see it in the red one because the red hair makes the brown seem green tinged but on my screen the tones I'm using are Brown, red, yellow, grey and blue for the skin.

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    Update:

    I've added some red to the skin and tweaked the mouth some more. I still need to add further shadowing to it.

    Painting things like this really make me wish I had more than just a digital round brush.

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    The neck line on the right looks off

    The face needs more contrast around the eyes

    Shading on the nose, lips, checks, and chin are off to a good start, just need to bring the forehead forward a bit and push the eyes back a bit.

    The colored part of the eyes are too small

    the edges of the mouth could be wider still

    here is a link about spacial relationships faces have with the golden ratio, it might help a bit to examine it.

    http://goldennumber.net/face.htm

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    Have you ever done any sculpting? If not, you should; it teaches you loads about painting, especially the concept of preparing the underlying forms before you go to details. The eyes, for instance. If this was a sculpture rather than a painting, how would you approach the eyes? Would you try to sculpt a perfect eye and then attach it to the face? Or would you make a depression for the eye socket, build up a mound in the center for the bulge of the eyeball, and then worry about the lids, pupil, etc. I think it's pretty obvious what the "right" answer is. Sculpt with light, don't make Mr. Potatohead.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PlasmaViper View Post
    here is a link about spacial relationships faces have with the golden ratio, it might help a bit to examine it.

    http://goldennumber.net/face.htm
    There are ways of understanding facial proportions that are far more simple and intuitive than that.


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    As much as the help is appreciated, I do wish people would take a little time to read what I am writing about the image. For those of you who missed it the first time around, here is why the eyes aren't on the level of the rest for a second time:

    I originally did block in all the shapes, however I made a minor mistake in estimating the eyes and had to reblock them in. -That- is what has led to the eyes being so simplified compared to the rest of the image, I simply haven't got around to bringing the eyes up to the level of the rest of the face because I've been polishing the lips, altering the colours on the face and starting to block in a rudimentary background.

    Suggestions are welcome on the eyes, however I am not making mr potatoe head just because due to having to restart the eyes I've spent all of five minutes on the eyes compared to the 3-4 hours I've spent on the rest of the face.

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    What I'm saying is that there are ways of blocking in things that are more effective and constructive than others, and they have to do with fundamental ways of thinking.
    Also, if the initial problem with them was proportion/size/placement, why completely redo them rather than moving/transforming them? That's one of the main advantages of working digitally.


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    When I say there was an issue and the eyes needed to be redone so they aren't as polished as the rest, the chiming in of people going "you have to do more on the eyes" does get to be a bit redundant. I know I have to do more on the eyes, I've put them in so they're around the right size and shape and I'll get to them in a little while.

    Unfortunately my digital program is a bit primitive. I'm doing this in Opencanvas 1.1 while I'm saving up to buy better tools. Which means:

    The only brush I have? is a round one. I have a choice of round hard and round watercolour and that's pretty much it for the brushes.

    No cut and paste, resize is a bit odd as well. Under the circumstances it was easier just to quickly reshape and block in the eyes for working on in a little while than it would have been to move the picture to another program, struggle with that one to get the necessary changes done, then transfer back and polish out the artifacts from the conversion.

    I kind of desperately need better tools unfortunately, I'm just a wee bit on the broke side so all I've got is a cheap tablet which I have to wrestle with, a couple of free digital programmes, my own skill and pen and paper. The only positive thing is if I can do -this- with tools that are completely and utterly basic and in the tablet's case a struggle to work with, I should find it a whole heck of a lot easier when I actually reach my goal and buy my new tablet and art program.

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    If you feel like a slightly better free program then Artrage might be more to your tastes, though this whole 'blaming the tools' thing you're at is a little frustrating to read. Down to crit: Put in her eyebrows. They are necessary and it's not like they'll take a long time. The skin seems at the greenish end of the brown range, when it should probably be reddish. I like that you're putting in your shadows now, but you really need to take them further. Her hair is a pretty bland colour, if you're going for black then make it black first rather than blue-grey, and layer in the highlights. She's missing collar-bones and the muscles in her neck. No need to give them He-man definition, but some light shading would be nice.

    I'm bad at sketchbooks, have a tumblr!
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    I'm not blaming my tools, if people will actually read what I'm writing then I wouldn't need to be taking time away from painting to write corrections. I'm trying to paint using what advice I have gotten but I keep having to write a bunch of stuff because people aren't reading what's written or are giving rather poor critique in addition to the useful comments I'm getting. I was told this was the place to get critique but so far as well as useful comments I've had at least two people make comments about something I already explained why it was like that, one person tell me something is off but not how it's off, and now I'm getting told off for making excuses because I explained how limited my digital studio is in answer to a question? I clarified for a purpose, not to make an excuse.

    While I agree, Tools do not make an artist into Picasso just by what they are; Tools can and do play an exceedingly important part in an artist's development, tools won't make someone amazing without hard work and effort but lack of proper tools can and will hold someone back. If you've only got a stick, you aren't going to be making oil paintings any time soon, are you?

    I was explaining the limitations of my art program which are directly responsible for -why- I redid the eyes rather than cutting, tweaking and pasting them like someone would will say photoshop. Opencanvas 1.1? Is a completely different program to photoshop. My program has an impact on how I paint digitally. I am not blaming the tools, I was asked why I did something a certain way and I am explaining. Please learn to tell the difference between someone explaining something and someone making excuses.

    Also, she? is a He and I only just restarted on the neck as well because I didn't like the original. I tend to start with one area then spread out polishing as I go. The neck is obviously not polished. Do you honestly think I'm going to leave it like that? I'll get onto the neck once I've sorted out those eyes that I was working on before I popped back in to check on something and decided to reply because I don't feel like being classified as an excuse maker because I explained something.

    Maybe next time I'll only bring it in when it's in the final polish stages. I'll stick the eyebrows in later. I do the eyebrows and eyelashes at the same time.

    Please excuse me if I sound a little cranky, I don't intend to but between my tablet just throwing another fit and deciding not to work until it's being unplugged, replugged and the art program and image reloaded, it being 5am and the continuing issues where I have to struggle to even get threads to load if I'm signed in. I'm in a bit of a tense mood this morning.

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    s-i:
    Take a deep breath and count to ten.
    No one is making you write novel-length replies.
    People are commenting on the eyes because eyes are always going to draw a disproportionate amount of attention in any piece (it's basic psychology), and yours display a basic lack of understanding that has nothing to do with the amount of time spent or not spent on them. Look in a mirror and see how big the iris is compared to the rest of the eye, and how much is covered by the upper lid when the eye is at rest. Look for how the eyelids emerge from the eye socket, and how they wrap around the eyeball. Feel with your fingers how close the bone of the skull is to the surface in some areas as opposed to others, and what effect that has on the forms.


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    I did say I just quickly put them back in due to an error, with the implication that I've not had time to work on them yet after redoing the position/shape/size. I know they're in the right place and are the right size and the only reason I stuck irises in quickly? Is because I got complaints that it looked creepy without them and was distracting people from critiquing it. Eyes don't go from basic placeholders to omg realism in 0.2 seconds do they? If someone knows how to do that, come teach me. I'd love to be able to paint a realistic eye in 0.2 seconds.

    I do understand that eyes draw the most attention but I also think that if I say that the eyes were just re-sketched in quickly and are at the most basic stage of rendering that people should be able to twig that I'm going to redo them soon. I've moved in and started building up the bone around them while I've been typing this.

    Give me a couple of days and I'll replace them with something that actually is more than just "eye is so big and goes here". I'm just irked that I -wrote- about the eyes and what was wrong with them being down to an error that I was going to fix and even after that some people were all "zomg the eyes are wrong". It doesn't cost anyone anything to read and see what issues I am actually aware of. I mean if I was insisting the eyes were fine? I could understand mentioning them. But when I say they're wonky and are being fixed, telling me that they need work is a bit bloody redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by subversive-imaginati View Post
    Advice, critique and help very much sought.
    *****


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    Obvious statements do not constitute advice, critique or help in my book. When I mention an issue and explain why that issue is there, you can be reasonably certain that I am going to take steps to correct it. Telling me it's wrong is a bit redundant since if I mentioned it you can be reasonably certain that I know there's an issue there.

    I mean who needs this sort of thing when you're trying to learn? I'm trying to learn, for that I need helpful critique, not statements of the obvious. The first thing I start doing in months and apparently, I'm "blaming my tools" when I explain something in response to a question, not to mention that if I wanted to hear what I said repeated back to me? I'd get a parrot.

    Never mind I'm struggling with outdated and failing tools which are having a knock on impact, what's really important is the bit I had to go over due to stupid half asleep mistake that I haven't as of yet polished up to match the rest, the bit I mentioned repeatedly because it's a mistake that I know exists and just haven't had time to fix yet.

    Though I must confess, I'm a little perplexed by the last posted image, so someone came into this thread and put me on their ignore list? Three cheers for them, nobody else cares.

    Last edited by subversive-imaginati; September 12th, 2007 at 02:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by subversive-imaginati View Post
    If you've only got a stick, you aren't going to be making oil paintings any time soon, are you?
    You're using a digital painting program to make a digital painting. Of course which program you use will make a difference, but I've seen some pretty amazing stuff done with a mouse in MS paint.

    Quote Originally Posted by subversive-imaginati View Post
    Also, she? is a He and I only just restarted on the neck as well because I didn't like the original. I tend to start with one area then spread out polishing as I go. The neck is obviously not polished. Do you honestly think I'm going to leave it like that?
    Well how am I to know? the way you're talking practically nothing on this painting is finished except the lips. I wonder why you bothered posting it at all. As for the he/she thing, your face is extremely androgynous. I took a guess based on the long hair. I'm sorry your program is giving you the shits man but it's not like anyone here is deliberately lashing out at you.

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    Amazing stuff in ms paint? I've seen that as well. But it doesn't mean MS paint has the same tools as other programs, sometimes a program can mean a completely different manner of doing things. That was kind of why I was explaining the issues with my tools. I think my tablet is considering becoming a new coaster or something, all the issues I've had with it lately.

    I kind of did call him a him in the first post. No, the lips aren't finished either, I'm still working on the upper lip. I've got masses to do still in this, but that doesn't mean it's not worth critiquing.

    It's not that, it's just I'm irked that I've written things, and I'm getting comments that look like people aren't even reading it. If I wanted to talk to myself, I'd look for a nice wall you know? Plus I'm a little sensitive over the whole "excuses" thing, I've had it flung at me way too many times for very little reason. I even once got accused of it because I asked for more work, however that works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by subversive-imaginati View Post
    As much as the help is appreciated, I do wish people would take a little time to read what I am writing about the image. For those of you who missed it the first time around, here is why the eyes aren't on the level of the rest for a second time:

    I originally did block in all the shapes, however I made a minor mistake in estimating the eyes and had to reblock them in. -That- is what has led to the eyes being so simplified compared to the rest of the image, I simply haven't got around to bringing the eyes up to the level of the rest of the face because I've been polishing the lips, altering the colours on the face and starting to block in a rudimentary background.

    Suggestions are welcome on the eyes, however I am not making mr potatoe head just because due to having to restart the eyes I've spent all of five minutes on the eyes compared to the 3-4 hours I've spent on the rest of the face.
    I wouldn't get so sniffy, people can only review a picture as it is, not as it will be!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellingsworth View Post
    It's growing.

    Attachment 201072
    Ellingsworth, if I have unintentionally caused you offence at some point, please let me know and let me put it right...

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    Okay, there's several issues here, one "sniffy" isn't applicable here. I have made valid points about the critique that's being doled out. Critique needs to be useful and despite Conceptart's reputation for critique, I do find that a lot of the critiques are very general, or tell me something is wrong but not how it's wrong or just repeat things I've already mentioned.

    I mean advice on the tones? I really did need to fix the greenish tones so that helped.

    Comments on the colour of the lips? I have some issues with lips, I'm working on them though so that helped.

    Comments on the neck being off? Valid, I've made a bodge of that and have to redo. Though advice on how to fix it would have been appreciated. Necks always seen to cause me issues, I make them too long, too straight and all kinds of wonky frequently.

    Pointing out a mistake which I openly admit I haven't really put much effort into fixing yet? Kind of pointless. I know it's there and I am going to fix it. Some advice on measuring eyes would have been nice since looking at it again this morning I've realised that the tweaking has made them slightly wrong in a manner I'm having a little bit of trouble getting to grips with.

    Claiming I'm blaming my tools because I answer a question? Obviously tools aren't going to improve my art for me, but it would be nice if I could draw a line without having my tablet decide that it'll take 4-5 strokes to actually draw it.

    I know you get people in who don't want the help they ask for but that doesn't mean everyone who says "hey, hang on a minute, I need something else" instead of going "omg you're right" to the critique is one of them. I am actually looking for help, which is why I am a bit irked about the focus being on something that I did mention had a new base slapped in quickly because I messed it up the first time.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what Elwell is trying to tell you is not that the eyes look unfinished, which is true, but that they haven't been sketched in properly. What I see is you've made two eye "Symbols" where the eyes should be, this will end up being a waste of time later on, so I would recommend blocking the eyes in with proper shapes to begin with to save yourself trouble later on.
    I think we can all see and read that you haven't polished the eyes at all, that's fine. It just seems like the eyes are fundamentally incorrect in basic shape, whether with intent or merely to save time, this won't end up being helpful.

    Also, I did find the face sort of "in the middle" sex-wise, so, maybe sharper features, a bigger brow, larger jaw, could give a more manly appearance.

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    Sorry if it's been mentioned, but I didn't see it while skimming and I'd just like to get this back on topic...

    The highlights, or light areas or whatever, especially on the nose, don't look to be 'lighter' To clarify it looks more like someone put flour on her nose rather than the nose being lit up more.

    Not quite sure why, maybe too much desaturation/not enough value change, maybe the fact that it's so obvious with the nose yet isn't anywhere else, can't really say.

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    I did a quick paintover for you to show some of the things I would change, I admit I'm not super great but its up to you if you want to take my advice.

    I added more dramatic highlighting using a subtly warm yellow/cream color, and shaded in purple. I tried to "Manify" the face with a larger chin and sharper cheek bones.I also added red tint to areas where bone is near to skin. I redid the eyes, which I am also poor at, but I hope they're not too bad, I did not add any features too the eyes. I moved the hair down to match the perspective better. I finished it off with an adjustments layer to tone the values, hue and saturation.

    Anyway, I'm not even average good yet, but I usually can at least show my ideas better in visual medium so I did a paint over. I hope you don't mind.

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